General Discussion Thread

[forby]

The back three will always make more metres than props as they kick return and usually have room to run before they meet defence. Props are usually running one off the ruck where the defence is tight. Not really comparable in my opinion.

 

[Pomoz]

The back three will always make more metres than props as they kick return and usually have room to run before they meet defence. Props are usually running one off the ruck where the defence is tight. Not really comparable in my opinion.

Don't you dare come on here talking sense. Get a grip man.

 

[snickers007]

I wouldn't mind seeing Tamou drop back on the 4th tackle every set so he can take a dummy half scoot and bump up his numbers.

Perhaps Mansour can come and defend in the middle to make up for him.

 

[BxTom]

This shows what was allegedly said to Inglis.

https://outline.com/DwXJtj

Tom.

 

[mxlegend99]

Yeah because props can't make more than 100 metres in a game. Tamou is one of the highest paid props and is nowhere near the better props in metres gained. That's the reason he's no longer a representative front rower. Thats the reason he cops criticism. Hes supposed to be an elite in his position.

Mansour missed half of 2017. Tamous output was about the same. If he were remotely close to the player we were paying for, we wouldnt start so slowly all the time. RCG turns momentum because he runs hard, makes great metres. Gets quick play the balls and the opposition are on the back foot.

Tamou can't do any of that unless he's running at an already retreating defence. He doesnt shirk his job in defence. Hes pretty good at that. But controlling the middle of the field requires more than 10 hitups for 90m gained. He needs to be doing 15+ hitups for 130m+ gained. Bust some tackles. Get some quick play the balls. Some offloads. Generate some momentum when we have the ball so maybe we can actually score some points and get on the board first.

Might tire the opposition out earlier if they have to wotk to stop him aswell.

 

[OldPanther]

What a gem of a thread.

 

[Abacus]

Yeah because props can't make more than 100 metres in a game. Tamou is one of the highest paid props and is nowhere near the better props in metres gained. That's the reason he's no longer a representative front rower. Thats the reason he cops criticism. Hes supposed to be an elite in his position.

Mansour missed half of 2017. Tamous output was about the same. If he were remotely close to the player we were paying for, we wouldnt start so slowly all the time. RCG turns momentum because he runs hard, makes great metres. Gets quick play the balls and the opposition are on the back foot.

Tamou can't do any of that unless he's running at an already retreating defence. He doesnt shirk his job in defence. Hes pretty good at that. But controlling the middle of the field requires more than 10 hitups for 90m gained. He needs to be doing 15+ hitups for 130m+ gained. Bust some tackles. Get some quick play the balls. Some offloads. Generate some momentum when we have the ball so maybe we can actually score some points and get on the board first.

Might tire the opposition out earlier if they have to wotk to stop him aswell.

Got any stats on metres and tackles per minute played MX?

No doubt Mansour is strong on his metres but metres will be higher for someone playing 80 mins than someone playing 50-60.

Then have a look at the defence in the middle compared to the wing - wingers should be using their energy in more hit ups to give forwards some recovery from/for defence.

Pretty sure the missed tackles posted exclude those where Mansour has been out of position and his opposition winger scored (twice against Parra from memory).

Should we be trying to keep Mansour - at the right price, yes. I think the comment from Gus may have been targeted towards other clubs' recruitment staff - just a reminder not to go silly paying overs for a winger (regardless of how good a winger they are). Potentially knock a couple of bidders out early.

 

[mxlegend99]

Right so now it's a minutes thing. All front rowers play less minutes than the backs it doesnt excuse making 10 average hitups in a game.

Tamou is supposed to be an elite prop. Yet our pack cant dominate with him on the field and Tamou off it.

Even Tim Mannah in a gutless Eels side is averaging more metres per game than Tamou. Every excuse used for Tamou applies to every single front rower in the gsme.

They ALL play less minutes than the backs. Less minutes is because they're supposed to have a bigger workload when on the field and they should require the break.

Mansour is doing alot more work than the average winger. In attack and defence. Tamou is doing alot less work than a starting front rower should be doing.

Petero on his worst day got through more work thsn Tamou.

 

[OldPanther]

Got any stats on metres and tackles per minute played MX?

No doubt Mansour is strong on his metres but metres will be higher for someone playing 80 mins than someone playing 50-60.

Then have a look at the defence in the middle compared to the wing - wingers should be using their energy in more hit ups to give forwards some recovery from/for defence.

Pretty sure the missed tackles posted exclude those where Mansour has been out of position and his opposition winger scored (twice against Parra from memory).

Should we be trying to keep Mansour - at the right price, yes. I think the comment from Gus may have been targeted towards other clubs' recruitment staff - just a reminder not to go silly paying overs for a winger (regardless of how good a winger they are). Potentially knock a couple of bidders out early.

Right so now it's a minutes thing. All front rowers play less minutes than the backs it doesnt excuse making 10 average hitups in a game.

Tamou is supposed to be an elite prop. Yet our pack cant dominate with him on the field and Tamou off it.

Even Tim Mannah in a gutless Eels side is averaging more metres per game than Tamou. Every excuse used for Tamou applies to every single front rower in the gsme.

They ALL play less minutes than the backs. Less minutes is because they're supposed to have a bigger workload when on the field and they should require the break.

Mansour is doing alot more work than the average winger. In attack and defence. Tamou is doing alot less work than a starting front rower should be doing.

Petero on his worst day got through more work thsn Tamou.

I'm not going to get into wing Vs forward because they are so different.

Let's look at a starting prop from a team that's lost both games so far and we play this week. Bulldogs.

David Klemmer:

Average hit ups: 16
Post contact: 103
Tackles: 44
Tackle efficiency: 94%
Average running metres: 143
Total running metres: 286

James Tamou:

Average hit ups: 9
Post contact: 71
Tackles: 74
Tackle efficiency: 92.5%
Average running metres: 93.5
Total running metres: 187


Where to get the stats:

https://www.nrl.com/players/nrl-premiership/panthers/james-tamou/

 

[franklin2323]

I'm not going to get into wing Vs forward because they are so different.

Let's look at a starting prop from a team that's lost both games so far and we play this week. Bulldogs.

David Klemmer:

Average hit ups: 16
Post contact: 103
Tackles: 44
Tackle efficiency: 94%
Average running metres: 143
Total running metres: 286

James Tamou:

Average hit ups: 9
Post contact: 71
Tackles: 74
Tackle efficiency: 92.5%
Average running metres: 93.5
Total running metres: 187


Where to get the stats:

https://www.nrl.com/players/nrl-premiership/panthers/james-tamou/

Double the tackles is the telling stat. Both games we have ran at 36% possession in the 1st half. So of course the runs will be down

 

[Abacus]

Right so now it's a minutes thing. All front rowers play less minutes than the backs it doesnt excuse making 10 average hitups in a game.

Tamou is supposed to be an elite prop. Yet our pack cant dominate with him on the field and Tamou off it.

Even Tim Mannah in a gutless Eels side is averaging more metres per game than Tamou. Every excuse used for Tamou applies to every single front rower in the gsme.

They ALL play less minutes than the backs. Less minutes is because they're supposed to have a bigger workload when on the field and they should require the break.

Mansour is doing alot more work than the average winger. In attack and defence. Tamou is doing alot less work than a starting front rower should be doing.

Petero on his worst day got through more work thsn Tamou.

Sorry to upset you MX. You were posting stats - just wanted to know whether you had looked any deeper into it.
I'll take your response as a no.

 

[franklin2323]

What a gem of a thread.

A lot different than what the comment was initially reported us.

This now to me seems like a poorly though out sledge gone bad. Deserves a ban however shouldn't be for life maybe need an aboriginal leader to approve a return AFTER some education

 

[Abacus]

I'm not going to get into wing Vs forward because they are so different.

Let's look at a starting prop from a team that's lost both games so far and we play this week. Bulldogs.

David Klemmer:

Average hit ups: 16
Post contact: 103
Tackles: 44
Tackle efficiency: 94%
Average running metres: 143
Total running metres: 286

James Tamou:

Average hit ups: 9
Post contact: 71
Tackles: 74
Tackle efficiency: 92.5%
Average running metres: 93.5
Total running metres: 187


Where to get the stats:

https://www.nrl.com/players/nrl-premiership/panthers/james-tamou/

Thanks OP. Are you able to provide minutes played for Klemmer and Tamou? I think it is a key variable, together with possession rates (especially while the player is on the field).

 

[mxlegend99]

My issue with Tamou stems from us paying him as sn rlite rep forward and him not delivering close to the performances elite rep forwards produce.

His opponents constantly make more metres than him. We rarely win the early exchanges. Woods is soft as f**k but more effective than him.

 

[mxlegend99]

Thanks OP. Are you able to provide minutes played for Klemmer and Tamou? I think it is a key variable, together with possession rates (especially while the player is on the field).

Grasping at straws to defend our highest paid forward beinf less effective than other elite forwards.

His performance is solid. Maybe slightly above average. But thats way below what it should be from a player on his pay packet in that position.

 

[Abacus]

My issue with Tamou stems from us paying him as sn rlite rep forward and him not delivering close to the performances elite rep forwards produce.

His opponents constantly make more metres than him. We rarely win the early exchanges. Woods is soft as f**k but more effective than him.

Sure MX, but are the opposition playing the same minutes, getting more possession (e.g. Edwards dropping the ball twice in the 1st 10 mins against the Eels, penalties etc).

These things influence a players stats - particularly over a sample size of 2 matches. Hence Mannah's running metres were influenced up against us due to more possession and our errors and penalties in the 1st half against the Eels. From memory, none of these were from Tamou but his stats get impacted.

 

[Abacus]

Grasping at straws to defend our highest paid forward beinf less effective than other elite forwards.

His performance is solid. Maybe slightly above average. But thats way below what it should be from a player on his pay packet in that position.

Gee you really don't want any comparison of minutes played.

 

[Abacus]

My issue with Tamou stems from us paying him as sn rlite rep forward and him not delivering close to the performances elite rep forwards produce.

His opponents constantly make more metres than him. We rarely win the early exchanges. Woods is soft as f**k but more effective than him.

You do realise we're not talking about Supercoach? Teams will use players in different roles depending on game plans, where a team's strengths are, etc.
Comparing match stats absent consideration of other variable factors is misleading.

 

[snickers007]

Josh Mansour is not the only winger at Penrith who is capable of 'carrying' our pack.

While he was injured last year his replacements were still making 150m regularly. This included guys like Peta Hiku and Michael Oldfield. Mansour no doubt does a better job than those guys, but the process was the same.

Our use of forwards vs backs is 100% strategic. The back 3 take the early tackles to allow our forwards to get back onside and recover from the defensive set. It's not the forwards being lazy.

Ever noticed how from a kickoff we do a complete forward set? That's because the props are position to take those hitups - unlike sets starting with a kick in general play where they have to retired 30-50m to get onside.

If Mansour leaves, we'll get another winger who can handle the tough stuff to start a set. Our whole gameplan won't need upheaving.

 

[Abacus]

Ok, looks like Tamou played 48 minutes against Eels, 47 mins against Rabbits.

Mansour 80 minutes each match.

Klemmer 48 against Storm, 56 against Roosters.

Provide for context from http://www.nrlsupercoachstats.com/index.php?player=Tamou, James

Not sure on possession rates while players were on field but from memory Bulldogs had a better share of possession in the 1st half against the Storm than we did against the Eels.