General Discussion Thread

[franklin2323]

Sure MX, but are the opposition playing the same minutes, getting more possession (e.g. Edwards dropping the ball twice in the 1st 10 mins against the Eels, penalties etc).

These things influence a players stats - particularly over a sample size of 2 matches. Hence Mannah's running metres were influenced up against us due to more possession and our errors and penalties in the 1st half against the Eels. From memory, none of these were from Tamou but his stats get impacted.

After 10mins in Parra game we had 10% possession. 36% after the 1st half both game. Tamou week 1 was 2nd in tackles made. RCG was the 2nd top on the weekend. I'd be concerned if they were taking no hit ups and no tackles

 

[Abacus]

After 10mins in Parra game we had 10% possession. 36% after the 1st half both game. Tamou week 1 was 2nd in tackles made. RCG was the 2nd top on the weekend. I'd be concerned if they were taking no hit ups and no tackles

Thanks Franklin. That seems to be consistent with stats provided by OP where Tamou has made an additional 30 tackles than Klemmer.

 

[OldPanther]

Ok, looks like Tamou played 48 minutes against Eels, 47 mins against Rabbits.

Mansour 80 minutes each match.

Klemmer 48 against Storm, 56 against Roosters.

Provide for context from http://www.nrlsupercoachstats.com/index.php?player=Tamou, James

Not sure on possession rates while players were on field but from memory Bulldogs had a better share of possession in the 1st half against the Storm than we did against the Eels.

Thanks for finding that. It wasn't in the info I found and don't have time at work to do a proper search.

 

[OldPanther]

After 10mins in Parra game we had 10% possession. 36% after the 1st half both game. Tamou week 1 was 2nd in tackles made. RCG was the 2nd top on the weekend. I'd be concerned if they were taking no hit ups and no tackles

I would imagine our tackles stat would be quite high overall with the first halves like they've been.

 

[franklin2323]

I would imagine our tackles stat would be quite high overall with the first halves like they've been.

Yep. Merrin, Wallace, JFH and Starting props been top few both weeks. Starters doing more of that stuff. Edwards and Mansour gained 190m the next best was 130 against Souths

 

[mxlegend99]

Josh Mansour is not the only winger at Penrith who is capable of 'carrying' our pack.

While he was injured last year his replacements were still making 150m regularly. This included guys like Peta Hiku and Michael Oldfield. Mansour no doubt does a better job than those guys, but the process was the same.

Our use of forwards vs backs is 100% strategic. The back 3 take the early tackles to allow our forwards to get back onside and recover from the defensive set. It's not the forwards being lazy.

Ever noticed how from a kickoff we do a complete forward set? That's because the props are position to take those hitups - unlike sets starting with a kick in general play where they have to retired 30-50m to get onside.

If Mansour leaves, we'll get another winger who can handle the tough stuff to start a set. Our whole gameplan won't need upheaving.

That is 100% a load of shit.

Peta Hiku averaged more than Tamou sure. But it was only 106m per game. Oldfield played 1 game for us. 2 for Raiders and averaged 80m per game.

Most wingers only run big metres when they get a linebreak and boost their stats that way. Doing the tough carries Mansour does is not that easy. Carrying a forward pack is not supposed to be a wingers job either. Getting front rowers onside quicker should help them make bigger metres as they can get more opportunities for runs.

 

[snickers007]

That is 100% a load of shit.

Peta Hiku averaged more than Tamou sure. But it was only 106m per game. Oldfield played 1 game for us. 2 for Raiders and averaged 80m per game.

Most wingers only run big metres when they get a linebreak and boost their stats that way. Doing the tough carries Mansour does is not that easy. Carrying a forward pack is not supposed to be a wingers job either. Getting front rowers onside quicker should help them make bigger metres as they can get more opportunities for runs.

Oldfield made 144m in his single game for us. The fact that he runs for less with the Raiders might indicate that they use their wingers differently to us?

Props also get their running stats boosted by returning kickoffs and drop outs, where they can run for 15-20m before facing any opposition. We haven't been scoring many tries, and we sure as hell don't force drop outs (neither of which are Tamou's fault btw) so that again lessens his numbers

 

[mxlegend99]

Oldfield made 144m in his single game for us. The fact that he runs for less with the Raiders might indicate that they use their wingers differently to us?

Props also get their running stats boosted by returning kickoffs and drop outs, where they can run for 15-20m before facing any opposition. We haven't been scoring many tries, and we sure as hell don't force drop outs (neither of which are Tamou's fault btw) so that again lessens his numbers

So one game where he was still shy of the 150 metres you claimed is regularly? It means the other 2 games he played for Raiders he was way down on that 80 metres he averaged.

Have you ever watched the way Raiders play? Rapana and Cotric are both metre eaters. They use their wingers like we do. Rapana averaged 144m per game last year. Cotric averaged 107m per game. Mansour averaged 157m from 16 runs.

You're trying to cheapen the tough work Mansour does in helping our pack out. He's not the only back who does it. But he's easily one of the best at it.

That doesnt excuse our supposedly elite prop making a pissy by 90 metres per game in the middle. You say any winger can do what Mansour does... but really any front rower can do 10 hitups for 90m gained. Tamou is the guy who is more easily replaced. We KNOW he is capable of a lot more. So its not an unrealistic expectation. He has done it before

We saw just how badly our side struggled last year without Mansour. A winger shouldnt be required to carry our pack. But the sad fact is that Tamou is not outputting what an elite prop should when we have the ball.

 

[mxlegend99]

Double the tackles is the telling stat. Both games we have ran at 36% possession in the 1st half. So of course the runs will be down

Eels ran riot against Tamou and Leota. The only time sll season they have been in a contest.

Once JFH shifted to the middle with RCG they stopped making big metres and we started to. Tamou makes a lot of tackles. But he still concedes alot of metres.

Opposition front rowers win the battle over Tamou more often than not. RCG is the guy sho plays like an elite prop. Although even he was well down sgainst Souths.

Maybe Tamou could benefit from being benched like RCG has. Whatever way you try to defend it, Tamou is supposed to be an elite prop and is nowhere close to performing like one.

 

[OldPanther]

RCG:

Average hit ups: 10
Post contact: 68
Tackles: 62
Tackle efficiency: 85%
Average running metres: 103
Total running metres: 207

Also has 2 tackle breaks to Tamou's 4.

 

[umina panther]

If we want a tacklebot in the middle and don't care about making meters then we should have just kept ET. Tamou isn't valve for money and hasn't been the whole time he's been here.

 

[mxlegend99]

RCG:

Average hit ups: 10
Post contact: 68
Tackles: 62
Tackle efficiency: 85%
Average running metres: 103
Total running metres: 207

Also has 2 tackle breaks to Tamou's 4.

Thats pretty average aswell.

Hes kinda shit when starting.

 

[OldPanther]

Thats pretty average aswell.

Hes kinda shit when starting.

Problem is the best props always start. I wonder if he'll do a Slater and redefine the position and become the best prop in the game as a 60 minute off the bench type.

 

[franklin2323]

If we want a tacklebot in the middle and don't care about making meters then we should have just kept ET. Tamou isn't valve for money and hasn't been the whole time he's been here.

We don't plan to have no ball in the 1st half of games though

 

[mxlegend99]

We don't plan to have no ball in the 1st half of games though

We started off with lots of early ball against Souths.

Our front rows lack of dominance makes it harder for us to get more ball. Possession tends to favour sides with momentum

 

[franklin2323]

Last year:

Edwards
2544m
258 runs
Ave 9.86 per run

DWZ
2980m
312 runs
Ave 9.55 per run

Blake
2151m
228 runs
Ave 9.43 per run

Mansour
2041m
208 runs
Ave 9.81m

I have said it before and will keep saying we are the best team coming off our line. Mansour is a cog in the machine obviously breaks tackles better then others but in general. He isn't that far in front of other backs

From a team point of view. They all have runs puts you around halfway not really anywhere for the forwards to take over with ball in hand

 

[franklin2323]

Problem is the best props always start. I wonder if he'll do a Slater and redefine the position and become the best prop in the game as a 60 minute off the bench type.

In a 17 man game. Bench is more important really you want them lifting the tempo and getting you into the game or pulling away from the opposition

 

[Fangs]

My issue with Tamou stems from us paying him as sn rlite rep forward and him not delivering close to the performances elite rep forwards produce.

His opponents constantly make more metres than him. We rarely win the early exchanges. Woods is soft as f**k but more effective than him.

Throw out all the stats we have a winner.

Its that simple. Pay Tamou less dollars and you are getting value. I think he is doing a decent job, defends well in the middle. But I think RCG is doing the job that Tamou was signed for.

 

[OldPanther]

In a 17 man game. Bench is more important really you want them lifting the tempo and getting you into the game or pulling away from the opposition

true. It all comes down to how they want to use him. Probably will change depending on who we play. I doubt we want the average guys starting against Klemmer, JT13 etc.

 

[mxlegend99]

Last year:

Edwards
2544m
258 runs
Ave 9.86 per run

DWZ
2980m
312 runs
Ave 9.55 per run

Blake
2151m
228 runs
Ave 9.43 per run

Mansour
2041m
208 runs
Ave 9.81m

I have said it before and will keep saying we are the best team coming off our line. Mansour is a cog in the machine obviously breaks tackles better then others but in general. He isn't that far in front of other backs

From a team point of view. They all have runs puts you around halfway not really anywhere for the forwards to take over with ball in hand

Mansour and Blake played like 10 games less too. Their metres per game is phenomenal.

But the more metres your backs gain to start a set. The quicker and earlier your forwards are on side. Its not a disadvantage to the forwards metres gained