Geoff Carr warns players off Samoa

[RedVee]

If you ask this question about the Cook Islands team then you could ask the same about the Home Nations. Should England, Scotland, and Wales being playing international RL, or sport, at all? Should these players be considered Britons, and should only Great Britain be playing international RL?

A Great Britain team represents the UK, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The UK is the sovereign state, it is the state that is entitled and empowered to enter into international relations with other states (such as at the United Nations, where there are 192 member states, including the UK). Neither England, Scotland, Wales or Scotland are sovereign states, theytheir sovereignty centuries ago.

However, England, Scotland and Wales want teams to uniquely represent them in RL and other sports. Cool, good luck to them. So do the Cook Islands. Good luck to them.

One could ask why Northern Ireland (NI) field a national team in soccer when the Republic of Ireland(ROI) team can select anyone off the island of Ireland, as Northerners automatically have ROI citizenship under the ROI's constitution. The right of ROI to pick NI players has been ratified by the International Court of Arbitration for Sport. The reason Northern Ireland field a team is because some of its people want a team to uniquely represent NI.

Except that Scotland was a separate Kingdom with a separate language, Wales was/is a principality and closer to being "England", Northern Ireland is a part of a separate country that was colonised. (Yes, it is all more involved - just a thumbprint version). Scotland would potentially have the ability to separate from the UK - think other nations that have become separated thoughout Europe over the last decade or so. Northern Ireland potentially could separate from the UK and unite with Eire, or stay a separate state from both. I would say that Scotland & NI are/were separate nations from England that have been politically united into the UK. I am not particularly familiar with Welsh history so have no opinion to state, but not sure they are in the same boat as the Scots. Don't know, happy to be educated though.

I asked about Cook Islands and NZ - I didn't state an opinion. I wanted opinions from those that knew more about that situation.

 

[Springs]

Except that Scotland was a separate Kingdom with a separate language, Wales was/is a principality and closer to being "England", Northern Ireland is a part of a separate country that was colonised. (Yes, it is all more involved - just a thumbprint version). Scotland would potentially have the ability to separate from the UK - think other nations that have become separated thoughout Europe over the last decade or so. Northern Ireland potentially could separate from the UK and unite with Eire, or stay a separate state from both. I would say that Scotland & NI are/were separate nations from England that have been politically united into the UK. I am not particularly familiar with Welsh history so have no opinion to state, but not sure they are in the same boat as the Scots. Don't know, happy to be educated though.

I asked about Cook Islands and NZ - I didn't state an opinion. I wanted opinions from those that knew more about that situation.

I don't think Cook Islands has been connected to New Zealand since the beginning of time, they have the same right to represent themselves on an international level as Scotland, England and Wales.

 

[typicalfan]

So the answer is to create more meaningful matches not to allow Origin and other international teams to make this more of a farce than it already is.

I think a lot of people here have a very poor idea of what State of Origin actually is. Carr is a hypocrite though of the highest order.

 

[roughyedspud]

the ARL would never allow internationals ie tonga v samoa at the same time as origin

 

[chefman21]

The All-Stars game might go a long way to fixing some of these problems, provided it is a long-term fixture. If it reaches or exceeds the stature of Origin, which it can potentially do based on the quality of players, then the players who are eligible for Samoa, Fiji, Kazakhstan and the Mauritius won't have to think too much about rep sides. The really hardcore Samoan and the like representatives will choose their country over Origin. The players who have a background in another country but are really hardcore about NSW or Queensland will nominate themselves as Australian.

 

[timka4]

The All-Stars game might go a long way to fixing some of these problems, provided it is a long-term fixture. If it reaches or exceeds the stature of Origin, which it can potentially do based on the quality of players

I don't think so, the quality of players are equal across both matches, but the passion in Origin compared to the the All Stars game is a lot bigger.
I know it might bring pride to the Aboriginals, but the passion doesn't go both ways in the All Stars match.

 

[Evil Homer]

I'm talking about the United Kingdom. All Scots, Welshmen and Englishmen are Britons are they not?

Yes, just as all Germans, Frenchmen and Italians are Europeans. As Britain does not compete internationally, it's irrelevant. Scotsmen are not citizens of England, Welshmen are not citizens of England, they are Welsh not English. You couldn't have someone born and bred in Wales represent England. They do not qualify for England. They are seperate countries, and while not sovereign states they are in no way similar to NZ and the Cooks. It's really not a hard concept to understand. If there was an England team and also a Cornwall team playing internationally, that would be similar to the situation with NZ and Cooks.

 

[Hollywood Jesus]

the ARL would never allow internationals ie tonga v samoa at the same time as origin

I think a court case could fix that. It's discriminatory to force players to stand down for Origin yet not allow other teams the same benefit.

 

[Evil Homer]

I think a court case could fix that. It's discriminatory to force players to stand down for Origin yet not allow other teams the same benefit.

It's also discriminatory for one international team to dictate which players their rivals can or can't pick. Are PNG going to sue? Like hell they are, Australia can do what they want to the island nations because they know they don't have the resources or the know-how to stand up for themselves.

 

[Springs]

Yes, just as all Germans, Frenchmen and Italians are Europeans. As Britain does not compete internationally, it's irrelevant. Scotsmen are not citizens of England, Welshmen are not citizens of England, they are Welsh not English. You couldn't have someone born and bred in Wales represent England. They do not qualify for England. They are seperate countries, and while not sovereign states they are in no way similar to NZ and the Cooks. It's really not a hard concept to understand. If there was an England team and also a Cornwall team playing internationally, that would be similar to the situation with NZ and Cooks.

Of course it does. Have ye never heard of Great Britain?
And then you go on repeatedly stating a point I never raised. I said Welsh and Scots are citizens of the United Kingdom, are they not? I never said they were citizens of England.

It's nothing the same! You act like you think that the Cook Islands have been a part of New Zealand since the beginning of time. Cook Islanders have as much right to represent their country as Scots and Welshmen.

 

[Spitty]

The SoO is the ARL's toy. They created it, they market it and they make big dollar's from it. Those dollar's then get re-invested into Junior football across the country to keep our game strong. One SoO game would go close to generating more money than an entire season of international football.

Once upon a time anybody who played inside NSW or Qld could play the interstate matches no matter what country you were from. That system was a massive failure, it wasn't until they changed the eligibility rules that the game took off and became what it is today.

So why on God's green earth, would the ARL decide to mess with the most successful formular in Australian Rugby League history? Who's going to replace that money? Is the money generated by NZ v Samoa going keep the cost of a kids registration below $500?

Be realistic people. You can't mess with a successful system and potentially put massive amounts of the games infrastructure at risk because a handful of players decide to play SoO rather than the country of their heritage.

Personally I love international footy, much more than SoO and would love to see these guys play for their countries. But realistically you can't mess with a highly successful system so that you can change the minds of a few players.

 

[Matua]

The SoO is the ARL's toy. They created it, they market it and they make big dollar's from it. Those dollar's then get re-invested into Junior football across the country to keep our game strong. One SoO game would go close to generating more money than an entire season of international football.

Once upon a time anybody who played inside NSW or Qld could play the interstate matches no matter what country you were from. That system was a massive failure, it wasn't until they changed the eligibility rules that the game took off and became what it is today.

So why on God's green earth, would the ARL decide to mess with the most successful formular in Australian Rugby League history? Who's going to replace that money? Is the money generated by NZ v Samoa going keep the cost of a kids registration below $500?

Be realistic people. You can't mess with a successful system and potentially put massive amounts of the games infrastructure at risk because a handful of players decide to play SoO rather than the country of their heritage.

Personally I love international footy, much more than SoO and would love to see these guys play for their countries. But realistically you can't mess with a highly successful system so that you can change the minds of a few players.

The reason the previous system was a failure was because all the Queensland players were snapped up by Winfield Cup teams as they had the pokies money. NSW was just too dominant. SoO evened up the contest. Allowing the odd international player isn't going to change that. Adding Costigan, Marshall, or Adam Blair to the SoO isn't going to change anything. What team would Victorian or Western Australian players turn out for?

 

[Lambretta]

Yes, just as all Germans, Frenchmen and Italians are Europeans. As Britain does not compete internationally, it's irrelevant. Scotsmen are not citizens of England, Welshmen are not citizens of England, they are Welsh not English. You couldn't have someone born and bred in Wales represent England. They do not qualify for England. They are seperate countries, and while not sovereign states they are in no way similar to NZ and the Cooks. It's really not a hard concept to understand. If there was an England team and also a Cornwall team playing internationally, that would be similar to the situation with NZ and Cooks.

Great Britain competes internationally in many, many sports, including Rugby League. A Welshman can represent Wales or Great Britain or both.

Great Britian is actually a country. England & Scotland are also Nation states within another Nation. It's a quite unique situation really.

Europe is close, but not exactly the same.

 

[Evil Homer]

Of course it does. Have ye never heard of Great Britain?
And then you go on repeatedly stating a point I never raised. I said Welsh and Scots are citizens of the United Kingdom, are they not? I never said they were citizens of England.

It's nothing the same! You act like you think that the Cook Islands have been a part of New Zealand since the beginning of time. Cook Islanders have as much right to represent their country as Scots and Welshmen.

Great Britain does not compete internationally, it has not done so for several years. And it certainly has never competed in tournaments that also included England, Scotland and Wales. Who cares if Welshmen and Scots are citizens of the UK, they are also citizens of the EU, it makes no difference seeing as these bodies do not have international RL teams that are involved in the World Cup. I never claimed the Cook Islands had been part of NZ since the 'beginning of time' (?), Cornwall also used to be an independent nation, it is now part of England and as such does not have its own national sports teams. The same applies for Texas in America. History isn't really relevant at all. The fact is that the Cook Islands have two international teams representing them, the Cook Islands team and the NZ team. Scotland, Wales and England only have one international team representing each of them. I do not understand why so many Australians are incapable of understanding this incredibly simple concept. The only way a Cook Islands team could work in the World Cup would be if players from the Cook Islands were made ineligible for NZ, which is just completely illogical and stupid since they are born as citizens of NZ. Outside of the World Cup, I've not no issue at all with them playing, or any other sides such as the Aboriginals or Maoris.

 

[Evil Homer]

Great Britain competes internationally in many, many sports, including Rugby League. A Welshman can represent Wales or Great Britain or both.

Great Britian is actually a country. England & Scotland are also Nation states within another Nation. It's a quite unique situation really.

Europe is close, but not exactly the same.

Great Britain does not compete internationally in competitions that also involve Wales, England or Scotland. No GB team would ever be in a situation where it was competing directly with a Scotland or England team. In fact in the majority of cases GB constitutes a representative side rather than an international team, the only exception I can think of is the Olympics which AFAIK requires only sovereign states to participate. I agree it is a unique situation, and it's certainly nothing like the situation with NZ and the Cook Islands which is fairly clear-cut.

 

[adamkungl]

The reason the previous system was a failure was because all the Queensland players were snapped up by Winfield Cup teams as they had the pokies money. NSW was just too dominant. SoO evened up the contest. Allowing the odd international player isn't going to change that. Adding Costigan, Marshall, or Adam Blair to the SoO isn't going to change anything. What team would Victorian or Western Australian players turn out for?

I don't know why people keep bringing up Marshall - he moved to Australia when he was 15 ffs, he is no way a NSW boy.

SOO being a free for all = farce
SOO allowing true NSW/QLDers to play another country = good for the game

 

[Spitty]

The reason the previous system was a failure was because all the Queensland players were snapped up by Winfield Cup teams as they had the pokies money. NSW was just too dominant. SoO evened up the contest. Allowing the odd international player isn't going to change that. Adding Costigan, Marshall, or Adam Blair to the SoO isn't going to change anything. What team would Victorian or Western Australian players turn out for?

The reason the old system didn't work, was because the players weren't playing for the teams they were passionate about. (If you ask Greg Inlis's dad he'll tell you that we're heading in that direction again now).

If you open the door to Costigan and Vidot, you open the door to Marshall, Pritchard, Asostasi, Ellis and Burgess. Then it becomes a joke, a side show, it totally looses it's passion. And when it looses it's passion, it'll loose money.

As for the Vic and WA players. We'll cross that bridge soon, especially when it comes to the success of some of the Storm Jnr's. But I agree that in the long run, this delimna has the potential to ruin SoO. Already we see James McManus (NT) and Corey Pattison (WA) take allegiance with NSW, but I coudn't imagine they'd have a great deal of passion for the NSW cause.

 

[Lambretta]

The reason the old system didn't work, was because the players weren't playing for the teams they were passionate about. (If you ask Greg Inlis's dad he'll tell you that we're heading in that direction again now).

If you open the door to Costigan and Vidot, you open the door to Marshall, Pritchard, Asostasi, Ellis and Burgess. Then it becomes a joke, a side show, it totally looses it's passion. And when it looses it's passion, it'll loose money.

So Vidot and Costigan say "I'm going to play for Australia if they pick me" and they're eligible to play State of Origin and the passion remains and if they say "I'm going to play for another Nation if I'm picked" Origin loses all it's passion and people stop watching.

Same players are playing but if they're eligible for the Green and Gold Rugby League lives and if they don't it dies?

That's some logic.

 

[docbrown]

If you weren't born in QLD, but moved there when you were young and have lived there the majority of your life, then its common sense for you to call yourself a Queenslander.

If you were born in the Pacific Islands but moved here as a kid, played your first game here and have lived here continuously for 7-10 years - then you deserve to be able to represent both your heritage (your Pacific nation) and your state (NSW or QLD).

You can be both Tongan/Samoan/Fijian etc and a NSW'er/QLD'er. Just bring in a longer residency rule and that will stop the ringers.

Otherwise be like Geoff Carr and whinge about why there's only 6000 tickets sold for next week's game - when you do little to advance the international game and focus solely on your own interests.

 

[Joker's Wild]

I don't know why people keep bringing up Marshall - he moved to Australia when he was 15 ffs, he is no way a NSW boy.

SOO being a free for all = farce
SOO allowing true NSW/QLDers to play another country = good for the game

Benji played his 1st senior RL game at Keebra Park State High on the GC. He technically is eligable to play SOO for Qld if he chose to.