Gold Coast Bears/Nth Sydney/Gosford

[The Great Dane]

Your opening paragraph response reinforces my argument. Not only only word of mouth , generational relevance and tv exposure in Australia's largest populated state and you choose to discredit this era as a significant growth spurt for rugby league. Anecdotally the game was gaining momentum with genuine expansion on the back of this period. Yet you cant see it!? And you flippantly assume that fans will forget such clubs that are carved up? Amazing lack of foresight and comprehension along with understanding of reality and cultural significance.

Firstly I don't discredit that era as a time of significant growth for RL, but that growth spurt has long since ceased and we've grown out of a lot of the things that come from that time, and maintaining them now has severely hindered potential opportunities to grow the sport for years and is currently hindering our next growth spurt.

But lets assume for sake of argument that it does reinforce your argument, why doesn't that respect that the current Sydney clubs get (for whatever reason) extend to the older clubs (Glebe, etc) and the BRL clubs that also enjoyed relativity large fan bases and generational relevance?
Why don't the current Sydney clubs have to adhere to their history with reverence in some regards but not in others (in other words why isn't it a crime for the Roosters not to maintain sky blue in their colour scheme or for the Dragons to give up the moniker of the Dragon Slayers)?

And why in your theory, should some non-Sydney clubs also be shackled to their history but not others, even though in your threory they didn't enjoy this generational relevance and exposure (or whatever), like the Warriors having to go back to their old colour scheme?

And what exactly is this mystical thing that some Sydney clubs have, that must be maintained at all costs in a cult like fashion or the game will turn to shit, that you call respect/generational relevance and why do you assume that new clubs couldn't get it.

Finally, how come we can let some Sydney clubs and/or traditions slide into the history books and the world isn't falling apart? And since we have let them slide into the history books and the world isn't falling apart why wouldn't it be the same for other clubs/whatever that we drop now.

 

[Stallion]

Firstly I don't discredit that era as a time of significant growth for RL, but that growth spurt has long since ceased and we've grown out of a lot of the things that come from that time, and maintaining them now has severely hindered potential opportunities to grow the sport for years and is currently hindering our next growth spurt.

But lets assume for sake of argument that it does reinforce your argument, why doesn't that respect that the current Sydney clubs get (for whatever reason) extend to the older clubs (Glebe, etc) and the BRL clubs that also enjoyed relativity large fan bases and generational relevance?
Why don't the current Sydney clubs have to adhere to their history with reverence in some regards but not in others (in other words why isn't it a crime for the Roosters not to maintain sky blue in their colour scheme or for the Dragons to give up the moniker of the Dragon Slayers)?

And why in your theory, should some non-Sydney clubs also be shackled to their history but not others, even though in your threory they didn't enjoy this generational relevance and exposure (or whatever), like the Warriors having to go back to their old colour scheme?

And what exactly is this mystical thing that some Sydney clubs have, that must be maintained at all costs in a cult like fashion or the game will turn to shit, that you call respect/generational relevance and why do you assume that new clubs couldn't get it.

Finally, how come we can let some Sydney clubs and/or traditions slide into the history books and the world isn't falling apart? And since we have let them slide into the history books and the world isn't falling apart why wouldn't it be the same for other clubs/whatever that we drop now.

My word that dribble has been answered already! That Era, the initial tv era is immensely significant. I might add that Qld was part of the audience in the 80s so it was half of Australia's population we are figuring in that have been exposed to the Sydney competition that you so disrespect. THE AFL UNDERSTANDS THE IMPORTANCE OF THE MELBOURNE CLUBS as these clubs were part of that tv era. That's why they are not throwing the bathwater out along with the baby! It's lunacy what you propose. It refutes historical, cultural and prudent business acumen which should be aimed at consolidation and expansion without hurting the code!

 

[taipan]

What about Adelaide?

What about Adelaide? I don't have a problem with Adelaide nor Perth ,when the code is ready to include them.I don't have a problem with expansion full stop.If they have strong commercial backing ,a decent grassroots base, they have an argument.
I have a problem with the usual suspects ,who want to flick Cronulla,Tigers ,Roosters whoever, but never bring their own into consideration.
Clubs who are growing their membership base, their financial underpinning and fulfilling the NRL requirements, have as much right to be in the comp as expansion clubs.
Slash and burn has been and done.

 

[Stallion]

What about Adelaide? I don't have a problem with Adelaide nor Perth ,when the code is ready to include them.I don't have a problem with expansion full stop.If they have strong commercial backing ,a decent grassroots base, they have an argument.
I have a problem with the usual suspects ,who want to flick Cronulla,Tigers ,Roosters whoever, but never bring their own into consideration.
Clubs who are growing their membership base, their financial underpinning and fulfilling the NRL requirements, have as much right to be in the comp as expansion clubs.
Slash and burn has been and done.

Well put Taipan. In fact some consolidation and strengthening of the code with the resurrection of the Bears in Gosford with North Sydney backing and corporate support would fix alot of the damage that still exists!

 

[Perth Red]

Both of you are disrespectful of a foundation club that still has many 'dormant' fans and should he playing out of the Central Coast right now. In addition your 'peanut gallery 'attack on other established Sydney clubs shows your lack of feeling for this unique and widely respected competition that has its origins in Sydney. I'm astounded by your consistent attack on the game and its history which gives the code its notoriety and relevance. Their's a song verse I can refer to you vagrants in the peanut gallery " You don't know how good you have got until it has gone! " I know you will continue your damaging and ignorant stance rants as you have a track record of doing so. It's dissapointing that lack of respect and wise business acumen promoting code development are absent from your thinking.

you're the genius that told us that brand integration is critical in merger success. Simply pointing out how good the Sydney city sharks would look in the Roosters sky blue traditional jersey. One less mouth to feed in Sydney and one more growth opportunity created for the game. Everyone's a winner.

Sydney city sharks playing at a new Allianz, bring it on!

 

[The Great Dane]

What about Adelaide? I don't have a problem with Adelaide nor Perth ,when the code is ready to include them.I don't have a problem with expansion full stop.If they have strong commercial backing ,a decent grassroots base, they have an argument.

Way to take a joke seriously...

I have a problem with the usual suspects ,who want to flick Cronulla,Tigers ,Roosters whoever, but never bring their own into consideration.
Clubs who are growing their membership base, their financial underpinning and fulfilling the NRL requirements, have as much right to be in the comp as expansion clubs.
Slash and burn has been and done.

So basically you're selfish.

You won't follow the game unless it meets a certain set of requirements-
1. That Cronulla exists.
2. That it exists in the top tier of RL in this country.
3. That it exists in it's current form without any minor changes whats so ever.
Consequences be damned, it's meet these requirements or you'll leave, and that's fine you can feel that way if you like.

Here's the problem though, even if all Sydney clubs were sustainable independent of the NRL and all met their full potential we'd still be missing out, because even if they all met their full potential they still don't bring as much to the table as a club in Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane2, Melbourne2, Christchurch, wherever, brings if they're just doing ok.

We'd be missing out on having a handful of really strong Sydney clubs instead of lots of relatively weak ones, we'd be missing out on $100 of millions of dollars (potentially billions) in sponsorship value, we'd be missing out on $100 of millions of dollars (potentially billions) of broadcasting/streaming dollars, we'd inevitably be missing out on the opportunity to introduce the game at a professional level to at least a handful of places all of which could bring in more then the excess Sydney clubs could ever dream of, we'd be giving up on huge amounts of money that we could reinvest into the growth of the sport, etc, etc.

There's nothing that the Sydney clubs or the NRL can do about these facts, and none of it is their fault, it's the sponsors, advertisers, corporate partners, etc fault, because when they spend money on marketing (which is what sponsoring a club or advertising during an NRL game is to them) they want that dollar to go as far and into as many markets as possible, and they're willing to spend extra to get that coverage.
Is it fair, no, but that is how the free market works, and if you want to be successful in a capitalist system you've got to be selling something that the consumers want (or corrupting the system), and that's want the consumers (the sponsors, the advertisers, etc) want.

And frankly as a person that wants to see this game get as big as it possibly can, I am not and would not be willing to accept keeping a bunch of clubs in the top tier, that because of circumstances almost completely outside of their control, can no longer keep up and pull their weight (in the growth of the game) when we could be investing in introducing clubs that would more then pull their own weight to replace them.

So yeah, do I like the fact that the league has out grown some clubs, no, do I like the fact that given time it will eventually out grow my club if all goes well, no, however it is what it is and it's not in my, your, or the NRLs power to change it.

 

[Stallion]

you're the genius that told us that brand integration is critical in merger success. Simply pointing out how good the Sydney city sharks would look in the Roosters sky blue traditional jersey. One less mouth to feed in Sydney and one more growth opportunity created for the game. Everyone's a winner.

Sydney city sharks playing at a new Allianz, bring it on!

Lol. Apparently you put that up as a 'joke' . I note that your destructionists stance has not wavered. Quite pathetic really!? I advocate genuine expansion without harming the foundations and you advocate harming the foundations for expansion? The difference being that the first version promotes exponential growth with consolidation and your version gives internal bleeding along with the code going on life support! Mind you I predicted your continued disregard for cultural, historical and sporting relevance and you have sadly wasted constructive discourse again. Here we(the respectful fans) are trying to put fires out that will damage the code instead of proactively setting about positive ideas for rugby league into the future. Slash and burn is so wrong yet you (the peanut gallery) push its ugly and unrequired theme within a rugby league forum that should be creating ideas to benefit the code not dismantle it!

 

[Stallion]

Way to take a joke seriously...



So basically you're selfish.

You won't follow the game unless it meets a certain set of requirements-
1. That Cronulla exists.
2. That it exists in the top tier of RL in this country.
3. That it exists in it's current form without any minor changes whats so ever.
Consequences be damned, it's meet these requirements or you'll leave, and that's fine you can feel that way if you like.

Here's the problem though, even if all Sydney clubs were sustainable independent of the NRL and all met their full potential we'd still be missing out, because even if they all met their full potential they still don't bring as much to the table as a club in Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane2, Melbourne2, Christchurch, wherever, brings if they're just doing ok.

We'd be missing out on having a handful of really strong Sydney clubs instead of lots of relatively weak ones, we'd be missing out on $100 of millions of dollars (potentially billions) in sponsorship value, we'd be missing out on $100 of millions of dollars (potentially billions) of broadcasting/streaming dollars, we'd inevitably be missing out on the opportunity to introduce the game at a professional level to at least a handful of places all of which could bring in more then the excess Sydney clubs could ever dream of, we'd be giving up on huge amounts of money that we could reinvest into the growth of the sport, etc, etc.

There's nothing that the Sydney clubs or the NRL can do about these facts, and none of it is their fault, it's the sponsors, advertisers, corporate partners, etc fault, because when they spend money on marketing (which is what sponsoring a club or advertising during an NRL game is to them) they want that dollar to go as far and into as many markets as possible, and they're willing to spend extra to get that coverage.
Is it fair, no, but that is how the free market works, and if you want to be successful in a capitalist system you've got to be selling something that the consumers want (or corrupting the system), and that's want the consumers (the sponsors, the advertisers, etc) want.

And frankly as a person that wants to see this game get as big as it possibly can, I am not and would not be willing to accept keeping a bunch of clubs in the top tier, that because of circumstances almost completely outside of their control, can no longer keep up and pull their weight (in the growth of the game) when we could be investing in introducing clubs that would more then pull their own weight to replace them.

So yeah, do I like the fact that the league has out grown some clubs, no, do I like the fact that given time it will eventually out grow my club if all goes well, no, however it is what it is and it's not in my, your, or the NRLs power to change it.

So now rugby league has outgrown some clubs!? Would think that clubs would not exist without rugby league. You are getting your stuff straight out of "How to undermine a code that deserves better". Wonder if the AFL people see their code 'outgrowing' well established and well known fan bases? Doubt that very much despite having 10 clubs in a city with 1million less people than Sydney. (Rugby league in Sydney has 8.5 clubs with a million more people plus more geographical travel constraints) And you advocate weakening the code even further!? Shear lunacy from your part. You refer to Taipan as being "selfish"? At least "Taipan" has recognised the damage being done to the code in Sydney from the last carve up yet you support further destruction in a very significant and pivotal area for rugby league both domestically and worldwide. It's one of the great sports competitions however you show it negligible respect or appropriate value. Additional clubs are the way forward!

 

[taipan]

Way to take a joke seriously...



So basically you're selfish.



You won't follow the game unless it meets a certain set of requirements-
1. That Cronulla exists.
2. That it exists in the top tier of RL in this country.
3. That it exists in it's current form without any minor changes whats so ever.
Consequences be damned, it's meet these requirements or you'll leave, and that's fine you can feel that way if you like.

Here's the problem though, even if all Sydney clubs were sustainable independent of the NRL and all met their full potential we'd still be missing out, because even if they all met their full potential they still don't bring as much to the table as a club in Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane2, Melbourne2, Christchurch, wherever, brings if they're just doing ok.

We'd be missing out on having a handful of really strong Sydney clubs instead of lots of relatively weak ones, we'd be missing out on $100 of millions of dollars (potentially billions) in sponsorship value, we'd be missing out on $100 of millions of dollars (potentially billions) of broadcasting/streaming dollars, we'd inevitably be missing out on the opportunity to introduce the game at a professional level to at least a handful of places all of which could bring in more then the excess Sydney clubs could ever dream of, we'd be giving up on huge amounts of money that we could reinvest into the growth of the sport, etc, etc.

There's nothing that the Sydney clubs or the NRL can do about these facts, and none of it is their fault, it's the sponsors, advertisers, corporate partners, etc fault, because when they spend money on marketing (which is what sponsoring a club or advertising during an NRL game is to them) they want that dollar to go as far and into as many markets as possible, and they're willing to spend extra to get that coverage.
Is it fair, no, but that is how the free market works, and if you want to be successful in a capitalist system you've got to be selling something that the consumers want (or corrupting the system), and that's want the consumers (the sponsors, the advertisers, etc) want.

And frankly as a person that wants to see this game get as big as it possibly can, I am not and would not be willing to accept keeping a bunch of clubs in the top tier, that because of circumstances almost completely outside of their control, can no longer keep up and pull their weight (in the growth of the game) when we could be investing in introducing clubs that would more then pull their own weight to replace them.

So yeah, do I like the fact that the league has out grown some clubs, no, do I like the fact that given time it will eventually out grow my club if all goes well, no, however it is what it is and it's not in my, your, or the NRLs power to change it.

Yet you responded to my joke re Perth,pot and kettle ?

What a load of crap and I don't need to go into a long extravaganza.
1) I want the game to grow, never suggested otherwise.
2) I also want clubs who are able to stand on their own two feet and grow their base and membershiop to remain.
3)I've seen enough destruction within the game and it hasn't helped it one zot.I won't follow the NRL if my club is flicked,I'll follow Internationals and SOO.Where did all the Bears/Souths fans go when the club were flicked?
4) Sydney's population is growing and becoming more centralised.thus so called areas such as the Shire are increasing their population accordingly.High rise popping up everywhere.
5) I've spent 4 years in marketing and know you service your old clients ,just as you would new clients.and I also know when you have strong competition, you try not to give them an even break.
6) i've seen how the so called strong Sydney clubs performed on and off the field this year,end it's not a good look.
7) I have stated expansion can be good if handled well or a disaster as union has shown .and the A League not that much better.And if you think the Force debacle for a new club is a good look, try a club been around for decades now.
Sorry bud ,I have a completely different view from you.
My view :Ensure all current clubs are financially strong or else move them as a last resort,then expand to Atherton Tablelands as long as it's done effectively and not just putting pins on maps.

 

[Stallion]

What a load of crap and I don't need to go into a long extravaganza.
1) I want the game to grow, never suggested otherwise.
2) I also want clubs who are able to stand on their own two feet and grow their base and membershiop to remain.
3)I've seen enough destruction within the game and it hasn't helped it one zot.I won't follow the NRL if my club is flicked,I'll follow Internationals and SOO.Where did all the Bears/Souths fans go when the club were flicked?
4) Sydney's population is growing and becoming more centralised.thus so called areas such as the Shire are increasing their population accordingly.High rise popping up everywhere.
5) I've spent 4 years in marketing and know you service your old clients ,just as you would new clients.and I also know when you have strong competition, you try not to give them an even break.
6) i've seen how the so called strong Sydney clubs performed on and off the field this year,end it's not a good look.
7) I have stated expansion can be good if handled well or a disaster as union has shown .and the A League not that much better.And if you think the Force debacle for a new club is a good look, try a club been around for decades now.
Sorry bud ,I have a completely different view from you.
My view :Ensure all current clubs are financially strong or else move them as a last resort,then expand to Atherton Tablelands as long as it's done effectively and not just putting pins on maps.

Would suggest that additional clubs would achieve exponential growth as well! The NRL should be at 20 teams. This would allow additional expansion clubs and consolidate the game in vital areas.

 

[taipan]

Would suggest that additional clubs would achieve exponential growth as well! The NRL should be at 20 teams. This would allow additional expansion clubs and consolidate the game in vital areas.

I always find it amusing ,when someone suggest I'm selfish because I follow my club through thick and thin, yet the same jokers are not exactly forward ,in putting their club up for relocation.

 

[Stallion]

I always find it amusing ,when someone suggest I'm selfish because I follow my club through thick and thin, yet the same jokers are not exactly forward ,in putting their club up for relocation.

Yes. The lack of empathy and feeling for a club fan, history, relevance, rivalry, and the code development itself is what concerns me most about the 'peanut gallery'. They propose and encourage destruction instead of genuine growth for all!

 

[BuffaloRules]

For a lot of people I know, their involvement in the game does entirely rest with supporting their team, and if their team no longer exists than they wont continue to follow the game...

This has been the case for some people I know that goes as far back as when Newtown got culled back in the early 80's...

Does this mean they are selfish? Hardly... who are any of us to make judgements about the way people choose to follow or not a particular sport, key word being sport... its not life and death ( for most people)...

 

[Perth Red]

Lol. Apparently you put that up as a 'joke' . I note that your destructionists stance has not wavered. Quite pathetic really!? I advocate genuine expansion without harming the foundations and you advocate harming the foundations for expansion? The difference being that the first version promotes exponential growth with consolidation and your version gives internal bleeding along with the code going on life support! Mind you I predicted your continued disregard for cultural, historical and sporting relevance and you have sadly wasted constructive discourse again. Here we(the respectful fans) are trying to put fires out that will damage the code instead of proactively setting about positive ideas for rugby league into the future. Slash and burn is so wrong yet you (the peanut gallery) push its ugly and unrequired theme within a rugby league forum that should be creating ideas to benefit the code not dismantle it!

you advocate continued stagnation through refusal to create room to grow. Pretty sad for someone who claims to be a fan of the sport not just the nswrl.

Sydney city sharks at a brand new Allianz, it's a sure fire winner. Even the jerseys can be easily merged as you have mentioned. flog off shark park for more apartments and put the proceeds into Sydney city sharks. A true powerhouse of the game in the making.

https://goo.gl/images/JW2wjr

 

[Stallion]

you advocate continued stagnation through refusal to create room to grow. Pretty sad for someone who claims to be a fan of the sport not just the nswrl.


Sydney city sharks at a brand new Allianz, it's a sure fire winner. Even the jerseys can be easily merged as you have mentioned. flog off shark park for more apartments and put the proceeds into Sydney city sharks. A true powerhouse of the game in the making.

https://goo.gl/images/JW2wjr

Not a case of creating room. The room is already there! Thats where we fundamentally differ PR. You have this idea imbedded in your mind that the NRL can't have additional clubs? Others believe the NRL can have exponential growth plus consolidation with additional clubs. The difference is clear. One is positive and progressive. The other which you subscribe to looks to implode the game and is ultimately negative along with being a public relations disaster! Go figure PR. I think it's time you be positive instead of dragging the code down!

 

[Perth Red]

Not a case of creating room. The room is already there! Thats where we fundamentslly differ PR. You have this idea imbedded in your mind that the NRL cant have additional clubs. Others believe the NRL can have exponential growth plus consolidation with additional clubs. The difference is clear. One is positive and progressive. The other which you subscribe to looks to implode the game and is ultimately negative along with being a public relations disaster! Go figure PR. I think it's time you be positive instead of dragging the code down!

Not according to the people who make the decisions, the nrl. You can live in your utopian world of more and more clubs addd, and no one would disagree this would be the ideal. But back in the real world the game growth at the top tier is stuck, the nrl won't expand into new areas for reasons outlined hu dried times. So if you accept that is thenparadigm the nrl is making decisions in you only have three options
1. Stay as is
2. Reduce existing clubs to bring in new ones
3. Sit and wait and hope the nrl paradigm changes at some point in the future

Wanting to see the game grow isn't negative, believing over saturation of Sydney is holding the game back isnt negative, we can have different opinions about how the game should grow!

 

[Stallion]

Not according to the people who make the decisions, the nrl. You can live in your utopian world of more and more clubs addd, and no one would disagree this would be the ideal. But back in the real world the game ps growth at the top tier is stuck, the nrl won't expand into new areas for reasons outlined hu dried times. So if you accept that is thenparadigm the nrl is making decisions in you only have three options
1. Stay as is
2. Reduce existing clubs to bring in new ones
3. Sit and wait and hope the nrl paradigm changes at some point in the future

Not too long ago it was deemed the NRL was a 14 team comp! This has since grown to 16 teams! If they are strategically and developmentally proactive a further two teams should be on their way!(should have been done 5 years ago!) And more clubs into the future. More clubs, more players, more interest and more money!

 

[flippikat]

Finally, how come we can let some Sydney clubs and/or traditions slide into the history books and the world isn't falling apart? And since we have let them slide into the history books and the world isn't falling apart why wouldn't it be the same for other clubs/whatever that we drop now.

Ooooh.. in some quarters, that's blasphemy right there!!

I agree 100%, but it's a hard slog having that view.. wanting to rationalise the oversaturated market to be able to expand, with the commonly held insular views that permeate our code.

 

[Stallion]

Ooooh.. in some quarters, that's blasphemy right there!!

I agree 100%, but it's a hard slog having that view.. wanting to rationalise the oversaturated market to be able to expand, with the commonly held insular views that permeate our code.

So the AFL are insular maintaining 10 foundation clubs in a city that has 1million less people than the 8.5 NRL clubs left in Sydney? Do the maths as well as respect the history! Theirs no oversaturated market in Sydney. That's a furfy to the nth degree! Expansion can be well done with additional clubs! Australia is a different scenario to other parts of the world. Its expanse and its highly populated cities is way different to other nations.

 

[Vee]

[QUOTE="The Great Dane, post: 12530056, member: 41273”]
It's pretty hard to comprehend incomprehensible babbling, with no rational reasoning to back it up.
Because even if you do have reasoning as to why things should be or are the way you claim you're quickly countered, at which point you ignore the counter and proceed to reassert your original stance, which basically leaves your points surmounting to 'things should be this way because I like them that way, and I said they should be that way', which is fine I guess, but it's not a good way to do anything let alone run a business.[/QUOTE]Nailed him. Exactly what I’ve thought for weeks now but lacking your eloquence.