Greenberg wants 2nd Melb team

[LeagueXIII]

Something similar happened in North American motor sport back in the 90s and 00s. Open wheel racing split in two when the owner of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, Tony George, formed his own competition because he disliked CART's a) enormous spending on technology and b) adding road and street races from other continents at the expense of ovals in America. He created the Indy Racing League, trademarked IndyCar and banned CART from the Indy 500. His competition used cheaper cars and focused on America. Fans flocked to NASCAR to see the stock cars, as crowds for the Champ Cars at CART and IndyCars at IRL dropped.

CART overspent and went bust in mid-00s, was bought by another company and renamed the Champ Car World Series. The Andretti family and other strong teams and drivers from CART jumped over to IRL. CCWS went bust in the late-00s. Tony George bought the rights and the rest of the drivers and teams made the jump He got rid of the champ car event that was run at Surfers Paradise by CART/CCWS from the early-90s until 2007.

The IRL became the IndyCar Series and its popularity is small compared to where CART was at when they had Nigel Mansell and were running events on the Gold Coast. The moral of the story is CART tried to expand globally to attract F1 fans, but eventually lost its fanbase to NASCAR and went bust in the process. The IndyCar Series won by focusing on the sport's history and existing fanbase.

I heard an AFL media guy say the other day when discussing the night grand final, that the AFL should look after it's rusted on supporters and not always pander to this market they are chasing in fear you disenfranchise them. Made sense.

AFL has many people ie. media types, ex players, administrators etc who have well thought out arguements that usually have the games best interests at heart. Unlike rugby league who tend to take their thought by the media driven agendas which are usually based on self interest. Ex players with an original idea you can count on one finger.

 

[LeagueXIII]

I think the ARLC should look at growing the game from the bottom up in Adelaide and Perth.

The talent pool is too thin to support any more teams from expansion markets. Teams from Adelaide and Perth will need to be successful on the field to make any traction in rusted-on AwFuL markets. There will need to be at least another 60 quality players added to the market to fund teams in these cities, and if they were added today then 55-60 of them would need to come from England, NSW, NZ PNG and QLD.

The Storm wouldn't have a strong 16k supporter base in Melbourne if they weren't instantly and constantly successful.

Or if they got 80 million from News Ltd over their early years.

 

[LeagueXIII]

I couldn't have said it better myself. In a national or international club competition, no one city should have more than 5-6 teams, TOPS. It's ultimately a limiting factor.

Do that to RL and watch Sydney fade away and become fair weather supporters, TV revenue decreases and so does sponsorship. No sport kills it's base that holds everything up except dumb old RL.

RL is not popular in every state of Australia, so you can't compare to overseas sports.

 

[The Great Dane]

Melbourne has 9 clubs, plus 2 soccer one union and one league club.

I don't hear any serious debate for clubs to move.

The AFL has grown their game well and protected the tradition and heritage of each club who came out of the original AFL.

I actually think it would be a huge positive for the game to bring the Bears back, the goodwill would be huge.

That doesn't mean the game can't grow in other areas.

There is constant talk in AFL circles about the spread of their clubs, especially in Melbourne.
The only reason you don't hear it because you put your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen.

A group of AFL club presidents want a review of the number of clubs in the league, and where each is placed, as part of a massive independent review of the AFL and AFL commission.

Here is Andrew Pridham (Swans Chairman) addressing it directly-

While denying accusations from the AFL that his primary focus was a push to rationalise or relocate clubs, Pridham said the 18-club structure needed to be reviewed and recalled the Swans' historic and ultimately successful decision to leave South Melbourne back in 1982. "The only reason you'd be against a review," said Pridham, "is because you feared retribution from the AFL - which would be disgraceful - or because you were worried for the outcome of your own club ...

"The number of clubs and the location of clubs is one of a thousand issues which we need to look at. Why would you fear that? Does Eddie (McGuire) fear it? No. Do I fear it? No. The only reason is if you feel in danger of being rationalised. And I'd say dial back to 1982 when South Melbourne was broke and in grave danger and took the decision to move to Sydney.

"Our supporters were devastated, Bob Skilton was angry and now all is forgiven. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue or you can face up to scrutiny and accountability."

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...endent-review-of-the-afl-20201015-p565fl.html

If you reread my previous post i mentioned SERIOUS debate, particularly from the AFL or an agenda for move, there is none. I live in Melbourne I work with North supporters and they have no worries of their club moving.

Nobody cares where you live or your mates feelings, the facts are the facts and you are dead wrong as I've shown to you above (and it's not the first time I've shown you).

 

[greenBV4]

I don't believe that, things change.

I guess you probably thought Souths would never get back in the NRL, or Manly?

Oh no with the way the NRL seems to be publically thinking I would not be one bit at all surprised if the bears got let in, in sydney, where they will cater to a handfull of suburbs, and it'll be as if nothing ever changed, and this would be at the expense of a city/region with 0 representation

that doesnt mean I agree with it though

If the bears need to come back (I honestly don't see why, how many years have they been gone now? are they really that relevant?), then Manly needs to go

Them or the Roosters could quite easily expand themselves to include all of Northern Sydney, but depending on who you ask they either refuse to or the Bears apparently kick up a stink - either way the NRL needs to grow some balls and do some bossing around of the clubs in Sydney and who they need to be representing

 

[The Great Dane]

I heard an AFL media guy say the other day when discussing the night grand final, that the AFL should look after it's rusted on supporters and not always pander to this market they are chasing in fear you disenfranchise them. Made sense.

AFL has many people ie. media types, ex players, administrators etc who have well thought out arguements that usually have the games best interests at heart. Unlike rugby league who tend to take their thought by the media driven agendas which are usually based on self interest. Ex players with an original idea you can count on one finger.

Funny how the AFL's idea of 'looking after it's rusted on supporters' is to take the exact opposite approach to the one you support, and they've done so for the last 40 years.

It's also funny how I can't think of one media personality that has supported rationalisation of Sydney in the last 20ish years. So it seems to me that you should be a massive fan of the "media agenda", as it totally affirms your point of view.

 

[greenBV4]

It's also funny how I can't think of one media personality that has supported rationalisation of Sydney in the last 20ish years. So it seems to me that you should be a massive fan of the "media agenda", as it totally affirms your point of view

Joey talks fairly often on air about there being too many teams in Syd

 

[The Great Dane]

Joey talks fairly often on air about there being too many teams in Syd

For every one of him there're a dozen Goulds, Rothfields, Kents, Ikins, Alexanders, etc, etc, etc, etc, and lets be honest Joey's opinions on almost anything aren't all that valuable.

There's no way in hell that he could give a well reasoned argument for why there're to many teams in Sydney.

 

[The Great Dane]

Oh no with the way the NRL seems to be publically thinking I would not be one bit at all surprised if the bears got let in, in sydney, where they will cater to a handfull of suburbs, and it'll be as if nothing ever changed, and this would be at the expense of a city/region with 0 representation

that doesnt mean I agree with it though

If the bears need to come back (I honestly don't see why, how many years have they been gone now? are they really that relevant?), then Manly needs to go

Them or the Roosters could quite easily expand themselves to include all of Northern Sydney, but depending on who you ask they either refuse to or the Bears apparently kick up a stink - either way the NRL needs to grow some balls and do some bossing around of the clubs in Sydney and who they need to be representing

Ex/sort of still am/it's complicated Bears fan here.

If the Bears were brought back in Sydney there'd be huge nostalgia/novelty driven support for them for a few years. Then, assuming they aren't the next dynasty club, as that excitement wore off their numbers would tank down to the 10ish thousand that the smaller Sydney clubs can expect.

I also think that people whom unironically want the Bears (or any other Sydney team) back should be careful what they wish for.
I mean their presence would further saturate an already oversaturated market, making it even harder for a club to survive in Sydney, and creating even more competition for sponsors, juniors, third parties, etc. That would probably lead to there being one or two more basket case clubs in Sydney each season, and may even push one of the weaker ones over the edge.

 

[Perth Red]

It's also funny how I can't think of one media personality that has supported rationalisation of Sydney in the last 20ish years. So it seems to me that you should be a massive fan of the "media agenda", as it totally affirms your point of view.

really?
apart from
johns and Fittler
https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/nrl-an...shake-up/27aad7fa-0a42-4461-9bc2-80b2a38bb1d2

the Ch9 director of sport
https://7news.com.au/sport/rugby-league/nrl-club-to-be-axed-for-new-brisbane-team-c-429644

paul kent
https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nr...b/news-story/91d8998b59b769ea82eed8285c770098

Anthony Griffin
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/s...96f4b156f1e0af&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium

thurston
https://ultramanagement.com.au/jt-says-hed-support-relocating-an-nrl-club-to-brisbane/

David Gallop when Ceo
https://www.brisbanebombers.com.au/...-will-commit-to-relocation-david-gallop-says/

John ribot
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/ex...se-of-sydney-clubs-ribot-20190319-p515kt.html

And many more over last few years

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Meanwhile, at the end of a shocking season on and off the field for eight time premiership winners Manly, Fittler renewed calls for the Sea Eagles to join forces with the North Sydney Bears, playing out of Brookvale, North Sydney Oval and Central Coast Stadium.

https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/nrl-an...shake-up/27aad7fa-0a42-4461-9bc2-80b2a38bb1d2​

Manly is a small club, drawing low TV ratings and poor crowds at a dilapidated ground. They might benefit from merging with the Bears and representing everywhere from North Sydney to Gosford. North Sydney Sea Eagles. Red and black. Central Coast Stadium could be their main ground.

"Every time we have this discussion there's an adamant view we have to start a new club. I'm thinking the Cronulla Sharks could go to Perth and have this history and play some games at Cronulla and some in Perth." Brad Fittler​

https://7news.com.au/sport/rugby-league/nrl-club-to-be-axed-for-new-brisbane-team-c-429644
​

That's the only way I can see Perth getting a team. To be frank, Perth doesn't deserve its own team. If they got the Sharks it would be funny considering how much Perth Red hates them.

I like Brad's idea of splitting games between Sydney and Perth. TBoon also suggested it, and it's an idea I think will work. Play the Sydney teams in Sydney and the out of state teams in Perth to maximise attendances. A new franchise in Perth is too risky. It will have to carry the burden of generating $25M to $35M in a state that prohibits electronic gaming machines, such as pokies. There are two juggernaut AwFuL franchises there sucking money and attention out of 80,000 to 100,000 loyal fans. Possibly more, as Perth Red reckons there's a waiting list just to get tickets for the Eagles. There's not going to be all that many people left to jump on the Pirates' bandwagon.

“The example is in the AFL where the Suns and GWS are money pits for the game and we don’t have the money as a game to apply those sorts of resources." Paul White

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nr...b/news-story/91d8998b59b769ea82eed8285c770098​

Well that rules out the idea of adding new teams in Adelaide and Perth. As Dane would say, it's "ludicrous" and "ridiculous" to add new teams to Adelaide and Perth when there's not enough resources to support them. All it would lead to is both teams going bust and having to be cut so the competition doesn't suffer, causing irreparable damage to the game's reputation.

JT told Macquarie Sports Radio, “I don’t know if there’s enough talent to expand for another team, but certainly relocating a team, I’m certainly a fan of that.”

“We need to make sure clubs are financially viable and the big wigs that are getting paid to make these decisions need to make some tough calls over the next few years." Johnathon Thurston​

https://ultramanagement.com.au/jt-says-hed-support-relocating-an-nrl-club-to-brisbane/​

Tigers to Brisbane and Sharks to Logan could work.

Brisbane Tigers, run by Easts at Coorparoo would be successful.

Logan Sharks, run by Logan Brothers at Logan Central, could work.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Gallop said the challenge, once the vitality of the current 16 clubs was secure, would be to ensure the new entrants had the backing to becoming major players in the league from the outset.

“I think that the competitive market that football codes are in in this country you can’t afford to have a team to come in and not be competitive almost straight away,” he said.

https://www.brisbanebombers.com.au/...-will-commit-to-relocation-david-gallop-says/​

Which is why I've been saying the only way a team can succeed in Adelaide or Perth is if it has a Leagues Club and supporter base back in Sydney to provide financial assistance, as the corporate sector in Australia's fourth and fifth largest sector is too small and too heavily invested in AwFuL to generate $25M to $35M per annum for an NRL team.

Global Media and Sports boss Colin Smith, who has previously worked with the NRL on its broadcast deals, believes Queensland should be an expansion priority.

“You could even mount an argument that, with the population in Brisbane, you could even go to two [new teams],” Smith said.

“Queensland is a truly NRL centric market that has been under-served. If I’m in Brisbane, you can’t attend a live game every week. Commercially, that also affects TV audiences and I know that both broadcasters (Nine and Fox) want (Queensland expansion).”

Smith said an NRL club should be established in south-east Queensland, but cautioned the “tribal nature” of rugby league meant a relocated team might not be embraced by locals.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/ex...se-of-sydney-clubs-ribot-20190319-p515kt.html​

This bloke should be made ARLC Chairman when PVL steps down. He's a genius and knows his stuff.

If there's going to be a 17th and 18th team, then Brisbane has to be the location. Adelaide and Perth can only work if a business consortium from those cities invest in a struggling Sydney NRL club to make it a powerhouse on and off the field, taking half of their games to Adelaide and Perth.

 

[flippikat]

Ex/sort of still am/it's complicated Bears fan here.

If the Bears were brought back in Sydney there'd be huge nostalgia/novelty driven support for them for a few years. Then, assuming they aren't the next dynasty club, as that excitement wore off their numbers would tank down to the 10ish thousand that the smaller Sydney clubs can expect.

I also think that people whom unironically want the Bears (or any other Sydney team) back should be careful what they wish for.
I mean their presence would further saturate an already oversaturated market, making it even harder for a club to survive in Sydney, and creating even more competition for sponsors, juniors, third parties, etc. That would probably lead to there being one or two more basket case clubs in Sydney each season, and may even push one of the weaker ones over the edge.

Spot on. The Bears brand has some merit in bringing it back, but the only two ways I can see it working in the long term are either

a) as a whole of Northern Sydney "reset" where Manly goes to NSW Cup, and the Bears become the club for all Sydney suburbs North of the bridge (note: NOT including the Central Coast), or

b) transplanting the club, the brand, the jersey entirely to somewhere Interstate (Qld, WA, SA) or New Zealand as an expansion team. Again, not the Central Coast - as I believe this should be a relocation option for a currently existing Sydney NRL club. That of course depends on the Bears committing fully to it, and finding a willing host city with NRL aspirations and a sound business plan. Under this idea, the Bears would cede their district to a neighbouring team - Manly if they stay in Sydney, probably Roosters if Manly relocate to the Central Coast or elsewhere.

Just plonking them into an ALREADY oversaturated market is nuts.

 

[flippikat]

Joey talks fairly often on air about there being too many teams in Syd

Yep. It's great to see someone in the media from NSW (albeit Newcastle) pointing out the elephant in the room. Of course he often gets shot-down by his Sydney colleagues, but his perspective (from league mad town, that gets a fraction of top-tier games that Sydney does) is valuable.

I think if some of the traditionalist league fans in Sydney lived a decent amount of time outside Sydney, they'd probably become more expansionist in their outlook.

 

[mongoose]

AFL has many people ie. media types, ex players, administrators etc who have well thought out arguements that usually have the games best interests at heart. Unlike rugby league who tend to take their thought by the media driven agendas which are usually based on self interest. Ex players with an original idea you can count on one finger.

That's really the difference between the 2 codes isn't it. One is completely ruled or hamstrung by self interest of competing parties. The other one is able to come together for the advancement of it's game. The AFL media celebrates its game and talks it up.... if you work for News and "talk up" League you will probably get pushed out.

 

[LeagueXIII]

There is constant talk in AFL circles about the spread of their clubs, especially in Melbourne.
The only reason you don't hear it because you put your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen.

A group of AFL club presidents want a review of the number of clubs in the league, and where each is placed, as part of a massive independent review of the AFL and AFL commission.

Here is Andrew Pridham (Swans Chairman) addressing it directly-


https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...endent-review-of-the-afl-20201015-p565fl.html



.

Ha ha ha..........is that the best you've got? Give me a few other articles. Not something from Caro...pleeeeasseee.

A slow news day and she rolls out the old move North arguement. She's just a fog horn, nobody takes her seriously down here.

Did James Brayshaw reply???

 

[LeagueXIII]

Nobody cares where you live or your mates feelings, the facts are the facts and you are dead wrong as I've shown to you above (and it's not the first time I've shown you).

Yes, you're the Great Dane, more like a Chihuahua!!

 

[LeagueXIII]

Oh no with the way the NRL seems to be publically thinking I would not be one bit at all surprised if the bears got let in, in sydney, where they will cater to a handfull of suburbs, and it'll be as if nothing ever changed, and this would be at the expense of a city/region with 0 representation

that doesnt mean I agree with it though

If the bears need to come back (I honestly don't see why, how many years have they been gone now? are they really that relevant?), then Manly needs to go

Them or the Roosters could quite easily expand themselves to include all of Northern Sydney, but depending on who you ask they either refuse to or the Bears apparently kick up a stink - either way the NRL needs to grow some balls and do some bossing around of the clubs in Sydney and who they need to be representing

Unfortunately, as much as I would like the Bears to come back and I think it would be great for the sport particularly in Sydney, I don't think it is a strong chance of happening.

With Politis involved in a position of power on NSW board the Roosters are positioning themselves to take hold of the Central Coast's juniors.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Spot on. The Bears brand has some merit in bringing it back, but the only two ways I can see it working in the long term are either

a) as a whole of Northern Sydney "reset" where Manly goes to NSW Cup, and the Bears become the club for all Sydney suburbs North of the bridge (note: NOT including the Central Coast), or

b) transplanting the club, the brand, the jersey entirely to somewhere Interstate (Qld, WA, SA) or New Zealand as an expansion team. Again, not the Central Coast - as I believe this should be a relocation option for a currently existing Sydney NRL club. That of course depends on the Bears committing fully to it, and finding a willing host city with NRL aspirations and a sound business plan. Under this idea, the Bears would cede their district to a neighbouring team - Manly if they stay in Sydney, probably Roosters if Manly relocate to the Central Coast or elsewhere.

Just plonking them into an ALREADY oversaturated market is nuts.

There is too much emotional investment in teams to just merge them, I think that is an easy option. Work out how to grow them and use their rivalry too the sports advantage. It's not like merging two businesses.

What's wrong with rugby league saturating Sydney? Damage the other sports not our clubs.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Yep. It's great to see someone in the media from NSW (albeit Newcastle) pointing out the elephant in the room. Of course he often gets shot-down by his Sydney colleagues, but his perspective (from league mad town, that gets a fraction of top-tier games that Sydney does) is valuable.

I think if some of the traditionalist league fans in Sydney lived a decent amount of time outside Sydney, they'd probably become more expansionist in their outlook.

Sydney people have accepted Newcastle, Wollongong, Canberra, 2 x Brisbane (1 killed by SL), Nth Qld, Perth (killed by SL), Auckland, Melbourne and Gold Coast. Is that not expansion?

Just want the balance, expansion and protect the traditional clubs.