Gypsy - The weekly review

[pinkmoon]

Using Des's back ended contracts at Manly as an example of paying players overs in precarious positions is actually testament to not playing Dugan in the centres, rather than the other way around. The salary cap situation at Manly is abysmal at the moment, and the club have offloaded a number of stars in the last few seasons as these heavily back ended contracts rear their ugly heads. The point is, if you don't manage the cap properly, you end up paying back rowers 800k a year, centres 600k a year, and after paying the remainder of the squad, all you have left for the vital position of fullback is a poultry 200k. Next thing you know, the club is chasing Nathan Gardner from the Sharks to fill the position hahaha.

 

[pinkmoon]

With all due respect BennyV, Dugan is still very much an unknown quantity at Centre. The ultimate guage for us is to tune in to origin tomorrow if he's playing centre. He's playing alongside and up against the best players n the world, should give quite a clear indication.

The arguement is not whether Dugan can play centre or not. Like Dugan, Greg Inglis can play centre, but his club coach understands that he is even more dynamic at fullback; that's the point a few of us are making. He is also on "spine" money, meaning a significant chunk of the cap is going on a position that is less significant in the modern game, than days gone by. It's why Gould released Michael Jennings, so the club could balance the cap better across the entire squad etc.

I really hope we don't keep McGregor around; I can't watch another two seasons of our new coach attempting to play the game in an out of date style with the fullback sweeping around the back to link with the wingers. All the best teams in 2014 are punching through the middle, whilst we persist with sideways movements.

 

[watatank]

Centres are nowhere near worth what they used to be. They just get the time and space they used to. They are still very important defensively (but that's not why Dugan was moved) but in attack, not so much. Fullbacks are worth more than they used to be, wingers have come a long way from being an afterthought in many backlines. Many edge backrowers are more strike weapons than centres (SBW for example) and as such are worth more, which why I actually said I'd actually be more open to Dugan developing as a backrower. If Dugan to centres is a long term move (and I really hope it isn't) then why did we sign him for four years for while he was our fullabck?

 

[GT0007]

To select someone in a position because thats what you signed them for or select them in a postion cos of the amount of the contract is rediculous. It has validity in terms of recruiting but to a certain extent recruitment is nothing more than an educated guess as you dont know how the player will perform until he's in the team and you also cant predict how that player will affect the team dynamic.

While I don't think its a perfect solution I think the current selections have been justified by the teams improved performances, whether that continues or not remains to be seen. Two of the most criticised players recently have been Quinlan and Benji however between them have set up all of our tries (9) in the last 2 weeks. Dugan at Centre had a fair game in his 1st hit out and did everything possibly asked of him against the sharks and scored 3 tries. It's not the amount of tries it was the way he angled back in and hit the holes that impressed me, if he goes back to fullback he should play the same way as when he plays direct with momentum he is very hard to stop. I did voice my concerns early in the year that Duges sweeps too laterally and crowds his outside backs toward the sideline and its no coincidence we stopped scoring tries. The top fullbacks these days are ball players and I just dont see that Duges will ever be able to do that. I also dont think its reasonable to compare Englis at fullback as he is a ball player as well as a destructive runner.

Someone mentioned how clever it was for Gould to get rid of Jennings as he was getting paid overs but seriously Jennings was the best centre in the comp last year and was awesome in SOO and shouldve played in the WC Final ahead of Tate so I don't see it as a great decision although it was for Jennings who ended up with a premiership.

IMO some people in this forum are too quick to be critical of changes unless they are the ones they ask for and when they dont work they go quiet on it. The way I see it is we have to stick with the current team until Farrell and Morris are fit then there will be a dilemma

 

[Mr Red]

The arguement is not whether Dugan can play centre or not. Like Dugan, Greg Inglis can play centre, but his club coach understands that he is even more dynamic at fullback; that's the point a few of us are making. He is also on "spine" money, meaning a significant chunk of the cap is going on a position that is less significant in the modern game, than days gone by. It's why Gould released Michael Jennings, so the club could balance the cap better across the entire squad etc.

.

well said

 

[BennyV]

You cant possibly say that the teams improved performance has anything to do wi th the fact that Quinlan is playing fullback over Dugan.

 

[Dezziedc]

Dugan seems to want to play centre and is enjoying it there at the moment. I feel he is doing so because he knows Hayne has a mortgage on the No.1 jersey and will do for a while. If Dugan wants to play rep football then he is probably challenging himself to play centre and make reps in that position. Dugan wants to play rep football so you can't blame him for that as all great footballers want to play at the highest level.

Hayne is simply untouchable at the moment and the best fullback by a mile. Duges has no chance of replacing a fully fit Hayne.

In saying that he can still play fullback for the Dragons like Inglis does for the Rabbits. I think he probably will end up fullback once he cements his centre spot for NSW. Time will tell. If he gets touched up in SOO2 he may move back to fullback quicker than we think. If he has a blinder he may stay longer and push JMoz out of the squad.

He may even move back to fullback once Dylan Farrell is back from injury. He may be doing this for the team which is not a bad thing at all.

Exactly.

 

[Minh]

You cant possibly say that the teams improved performance has anything to do wi th the fact that Quinlan is playing fullback over Dugan.

You can't say it isn't either when you consider 4 of our wins this year have been with Quinlan at fullback. I will reserve judgement until later in the year, there are pro's and con's on both sides of the argument.

 

[watatank]

To select someone in a position because thats what you signed them for or select them in a postion cos of the amount of the contract is rediculous. It has validity in terms of recruiting but to a certain extent recruitment is nothing more than an educated guess as you dont know how the player will perform until he's in the team and you also cant predict how that player will affect the team dynamic.

It's not ridiculous at all. It shows that the club is actually planning and not just going out and buying names. We signed Dugan on a one year deal and moved quickly to sign him for four more so they were pretty sure. Recruitment is not an exact science but it's clear that some teams are better than others at it and it's something that IMO have been left behind, much like every other area.

IMO some people in this forum are too quick to be critical of changes unless they are the ones they ask for and when they dont work they go quiet on it. The way I see it is we have to stick with the current team until Farrell and Morris are fit then there will be a dilemma

And some people in this forum are too quick to defend the actions of the club and assume the club knows what they are doing.

 

[watatank]

Dugan seems to want to play centre and is enjoying it there at the moment. I feel he is doing so because he knows Hayne has a mortgage on the No.1 jersey and will do for a while. If Dugan wants to play rep football then he is probably challenging himself to play centre and make reps in that position. Dugan wants to play rep football so you can't blame him for that as all great footballers want to play at the highest level.

Hayne is simply untouchable at the moment and the best fullback by a mile. Duges has no chance of replacing a fully fit Hayne.

In saying that he can still play fullback for the Dragons like Inglis does for the Rabbits. I think he probably will end up fullback once he cements his centre spot for NSW. Time will tell. If he gets touched up in SOO2 he may move back to fullback quicker than we think. If he has a blinder he may stay longer and push JMoz out of the squad.

He may even move back to fullback once Dylan Farrell is back from injury. He may be doing this for the team which is not a bad thing at all.

So this is all about Origin? I thought it was supposed to be in the best interests of the club? Glad we cleared that up then.

 

[GT0007]

It's not ridiculous at all. It shows that the club is actually planning and not just going out and buying names. We signed Dugan on a one year deal and moved quickly to sign him for four more so they were pretty sure. Recruitment is not an exact science but it's clear that some teams are better than others at it and it's something that IMO have been left behind, much like every other area.



And some people in this forum are too quick to defend the actions of the club and assume the club knows what they are doing.

Let me make it clear, I think the club made some decisions which haven't worked out and are doing what they can to fix it. Things have been let go for way too long so they cant way a magic wand. My point is you don't stick with something if it is not working or if there is clearly a better option. We have barely won a game with Duges at fullback and I'm not necessarily suggesting he is responsible but as a fullback he wasnt helping the rest of the backline, thats why we had the game plan just pass it to Duges and it did not work. Either Duges had to become a ball player or be moved into a postion where he is more of a ball runner. Personally I don't think Quinlan is a fullback at NRL level but he's set up more tries there than Duges has in 1/2 the games. His obviously flaw is his kick returns which Mary is trying to work around and his other floor is stopping tries close to the line cos of his size and if you put JT there he couldnt do it cos he's not a fullback either. Beale was crap at fullback and I would leave Gypsy and Morris on the wing so the only other option is Mata'Utia but when u have Quinlan making 3 or 4 tries assists in 2 weeks it doesn't make sense to change that.

Souths bought Englis as a centre yet switched him to fullback....how is that going? Lockyer started grade as a fullback and shifted to 5/8....that went ok didnt it? Give Duges some time before you decide that is the wrong option for the team

 

[Minh]

^^^ Agree with GT0007, we need to give it time to prove it's worth or prove it's a failure. As long as the team plays better and is better equipped to win matches I'd be happy.

 

[Minh]

The debate is healthy as it keeps things interesting having so many points of views.

 

[dragonreddy]

The thing with the shifting of DUGAN TO CENTRE is that it wasn't ever mentioned by anyone on here until it was leaked out that he may be trialled there coincidentally at the same time ORIGIN is on,the same people that are saying that it's a good idea were also singing his praises at FULLBACK -where he belongs. It IS A bit like last weeks game where a loss is almost being praised as much as a win, a lot on here see what they want to see and not reality.

 

[watatank]

Let me make it clear, I think the club made some decisions which haven't worked out and are doing what they can to fix it. Things have been let go for way too long so they cant way a magic wand. My point is you don't stick with something if it is not working or if there is clearly a better option. We have barely won a game with Duges at fullback and I'm not necessarily suggesting he is responsible but as a fullback he wasnt helping the rest of the backline, thats why we had the game plan just pass it to Duges and it did not work. Either Duges had to become a ball player or be moved into a postion where he is more of a ball runner. Personally I don't think Quinlan is a fullback at NRL level but he's set up more tries there than Duges has in 1/2 the games. His obviously flaw is his kick returns which Mary is trying to work around and his other floor is stopping tries close to the line cos of his size and if you put JT there he couldnt do it cos he's not a fullback either. Beale was crap at fullback and I would leave Gypsy and Morris on the wing so the only other option is Mata'Utia but when u have Quinlan making 3 or 4 tries assists in 2 weeks it doesn't make sense to change that.

Souths bought Englis as a centre yet switched him to fullback....how is that going? Lockyer started grade as a fullback and shifted to 5/8....that went ok didnt it? Give Duges some time before you decide that is the wrong option for the team

Again, you have to look at what a player offers overall. Having a better passing game just doesn't cut it. Quinlan has many flaws, more than you have mentioned.

Souths bought Inglis as a centre and moved him to a key position of fullback which was the best move Souths could make on the way to winning again. Lockyer was always going to move to the halves eventually (he was effectively playing there anyway) but only did so after Karmichael Hunt moved (I actually mentioned this before). We are moving Dugan for Quinlan FFS. It's like Souths moving Inglis back to centre and moving Merritt to fullback.

 

[jenninga]

This debate about Dugan in the centres is hilarious,we have Morris and Farrell out so with suppose input from Daley ,who McGregor was working with in Origin anyway,we decided to move Dugan to the centres.
WTF it's not as we have been on a winning run and the run is going to be threatened with the move.I don't see how it's such a bad move for the moment.
Suppose those who want Dugan to stay at FB want Green in the centres then,perhaps the same mob who were jumping up and down when he was selected early in the season.

 

[watatank]

So what you're saying is that it doesn't matter that Dugan has moved to the centres, because we are irrelevant anyway. It wasn't that long ago we won the premiership. And you wonder why people are pissed off

 

[jenninga]

So what you're saying is that it doesn't matter that Dugan has moved to the centres, because we are irrelevant anyway. It wasn't that long ago we won the premiership. And you wonder why people are pissed off

No ,did I say that,no.
I was saying that moving Dugan to the centres didn't weaken our team,despite what people think of Quinlan as a player.

 

[TheRev]

Inglis is a far more complete player than Dugan, Dugan gives us some real issues to work around due to his incomplete skillset.

Not saying he should or shouldnt be fullback, but im willing to leave it to the coach right now because someone had to address our lack of attacking structure.

 

[watatank]

Moving Dugan because he's not a strong passing fullback is a complete cop out.

Forget that there's a number of issues with our attacking structures, such as our forwards that can't lay a platform, a crap hooker that can't pass, forwards that can't pass are asked to do so Bulldogs style, backrowers that don't commit defenders, most of our players run the wrong lines, timing is all out, players don't commit defenders and run themselves out of room...yeah but let's move Dugan because he can't pass that great. :roll:

All we have done is limit what Dugan can do for us in attack and made him tackle more (which does the same, I guess)

Why can't a coach just work with him? Slater is not a natural ball player either but found a way to improve. Sydney Roosters seem to go ok with Minichiello at fullback because they have halves, hooker and backrowers that can pass.