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If we started the NRL from scratch, what teams would we have?

Lockyer4President!

First Grade
Messages
7,975
2 conferences:

Northern Conference

Fortitude Valley
Brisbane Norths
Brisbane Souths
Brisbane Easts
Brisbane Wests
Redcliffe
Wynnum-Manly
Brothers

Southern Conference:

North Sydney
South Sydney
Easts
Wests
Balmain
Parramatta
Manly-Warringah
Canterbury-Bankstown
St George
Cronulla-Sutherland
Newtown
Penrith

I like this.
 
Last edited:

eozsmiles

Bench
Messages
3,392
How is the population of Dubbo looking in say 20 years time? I suppose that's a key consideration. 30,000 there now and 100,000 total in the area. So they are looking at 20% of the total population going to every home game to average crowds of 20,000. There might not even be that many people watching TV there on a saturday night. That's the equivalent of 1.2 million people in Sydney going to NRL games on a weekend.
 

flippikat

Bench
Messages
4,931
2 conferences:

Northern Conference

Fortitude Valley
Brisbane Norths
Brisbane Souths
Brisbane Easts
Brisbane Wests
Redcliffe
Wynnum-Manly
Brothers

Southern Conference:

North Sydney
South Sydney
Easts
Wests
Balmain
Parramatta
Manly-Warringah
Canterbury-Bankstown
St George
Cronulla-Sutherland
Newtown
Penrith

That's 8 in the Northern Conference & 12 in the Southern - the comp doesn't balance!

Also, where the hell are Canberra, Newcastle, Melbourne & Auckland - let alone Perth, or the Central Coast?


Forget Newtown, add in Newcastle instead.

Then move North Sydney to the Central Coast (most home games over there, maybe heritage round v Manly at North Sydney Oval), and move St George OR Cronulla to WIN stadium, while at the same time offering Sydney memberships to the traditional fans so they can attend all the 'away' games in Sydney for one membership. I'm sure a formula could be found where the the other Sydney teams can receive some income from their home games attended via Bears & Dragons or Sharks Sydney fans memberships.

There you have a NSW League Conference (NLC). 12 teams, 9 based in Greater Sydney, 1 each based on Central Coast, Illawarra, and Newcastle.



For the other Conference, lose one of the 8 Brisbane teams, and you could add Canberra, Auckland, Perth, Melbourne & North Queensland.

There you have a 12-team Interstate League Conference (ILC) - 7 teams from Brisbane, plus the 5 other centres in the last sentence.



So you have a 24-team league.

You could have every team play each other once (totally fair draw with 23 rounds), and the 2 separate tables kept - 1 for each conference. At the end of the regular season, the 5 top teams on each side play off in the traditional "top 5" system, then the ILC & NLC champs meet in the Grand Final.

Of course, there's other places that would warrant expansion further down the track - Adelaide, NZ 2nd team, NZ 3rd team etc.. but these could be done via relocation, conference realignment, joint-ventures etc..

Thoughts?
 

Teddyboy

First Grade
Messages
6,573
Assume the NRL was starting all over again and a new competition was being born in 2014.
In the same way the A-League was started from scratch from the old NSL days.
No old teams, no old affiliations, no mergers, no hidden agendas.

How many teams would we have?
What teams would we have?
What cities could sustain multiple teams?

Please just state your number and teams. No existing teams or mergers, and no talk about what current teams should go or merge. Remember these will all be new franchises.
In the fantasy world, all franchises must meet certain targets or risk being cut for other clubs waiting in the wings.

My view...
An 18 team comp, including
3 Brisbane teams, 5 Queensland teams,
4 Sydney teams, 7 NSW teams,
2 NZ teams.

1. North Queensland team (Cairns/Townsville)
2. Brisbane City
3. Brisbane South/Logan
4. Brisbane West/Ipswich
5. Gold Coast
6. Newcastle/Hunter
7. Central Coast
8. Northern Sydney
9. Sydney City
10. Southern Sydney
11. Western Sydney
12. Illawarra
13. Canberra
14. Melbourne
15. Adelaide
16. Perth
17. NZ North
18. NZ South

Waiting in the wings:
A Darwin/NT franchise
PNG
Central Qld

And in a fantasy world there be no AFL.
 

POPEYE

Coach
Messages
11,397
How is the population of Dubbo looking in say 20 years time? I suppose that's a key consideration. 30,000 there now and 100,000 total in the area. So they are looking at 20% of the total population going to every home game to average crowds of 20,000. There might not even be that many people watching TV there on a saturday night. That's the equivalent of 1.2 million people in Sydney going to NRL games on a weekend.

With a bit of luck all the current crop of dinosaurs will be dead and their grandchildren will enjoy being able to go to a game where they don't have to congregate around Australia's arsehole
 

Hutty1986

Immortal
Messages
34,034
If Dubbo can get a team, why not the thriving metropolis of Nowra? Lithgow? Harden? Scottsdale?
 

POPEYE

Coach
Messages
11,397
That's 8 in the Northern Conference & 12 in the Southern - the comp doesn't balance!

Also, where the hell are Canberra, Newcastle, Melbourne & Auckland - let alone Perth, or the Central Coast?


Forget Newtown, add in Newcastle instead.

Then move North Sydney to the Central Coast (most home games over there, maybe heritage round v Manly at North Sydney Oval), and move St George OR Cronulla to WIN stadium, while at the same time offering Sydney memberships to the traditional fans so they can attend all the 'away' games in Sydney for one membership. I'm sure a formula could be found where the the other Sydney teams can receive some income from their home games attended via Bears & Dragons or Sharks Sydney fans memberships.

There you have a NSW League Conference (NLC). 12 teams, 9 based in Greater Sydney, 1 each based on Central Coast, Illawarra, and Newcastle.



For the other Conference, lose one of the 8 Brisbane teams, and you could add Canberra, Auckland, Perth, Melbourne & North Queensland.

There you have a 12-team Interstate League Conference (ILC) - 7 teams from Brisbane, plus the 5 other centres in the last sentence.



So you have a 24-team league.

You could have every team play each other once (totally fair draw with 23 rounds), and the 2 separate tables kept - 1 for each conference. At the end of the regular season, the 5 top teams on each side play off in the traditional "top 5" system, then the ILC & NLC champs meet in the Grand Final.

Of course, there's other places that would warrant expansion further down the track - Adelaide, NZ 2nd team, NZ 3rd team etc.. but these could be done via relocation, conference realignment, joint-ventures etc..

Thoughts?

2 conferences . . . fabulous idea
 

POPEYE

Coach
Messages
11,397
If Dubbo can get a team, why not the thriving metropolis of Nowra? Lithgow? Harden? Scottsdale?

Why would you want to spoil the chances of Dubbo by having teams in close proximity . . . sort of brings Sydney to the bush doesn't it? Defeats the purpose of Satellite teams.

If you really wanted to destroy League in Melbourne put another team there. How about we give Wentworthville a chance to show the Eels who's really got the heartland.

Of course there is the problem that all those wonderful juniors that have to migrate from the central west and leave their families to prop up Sydney
may contribute to a super team like Brisbane who attract players who's first choice is not to stray far from home.

I can see why drug f**cked bullet ridden Sydney would be against a team that might attract players to the bush
 

busterc

Juniors
Messages
83
1. Nth QLD
2. Brisbane 1
3. Brisbane 2
4. Gold Coast
5. Newcastle
6. Illawarra
7. Melbourne
8. Adelaide
9. Perth
10. NZ
11. Sydney 1
12. Sydney 2
13. Sydney 3
14. Sydney 4
 
Messages
13,811
NQ
Brisbane
Auckland
Wellington
Newcastle
Wollongong
East Sydney
North Sydney
South Sydney
2 x west sydney (probably a Wests and a Parramatta area side)
Canberra
Melbourne
Adelaide
Perth
and either Gold Coast, Ipswich or Logan
 

MARSHALL ZHUKOV

Juniors
Messages
889
14 Teams as follows- 2 full rounds of home and away

2 Brisbane teams
North Queensland
Gold coast
ACT Raiders
VIC Storm
NZ Warriors
Manly/Norths/Central Coast- 1 team
Hunter Knights
Illawarra Steelers
St George/Cronulla- 1 Team
Parramatta/Penrith- 1 Team
Roosters/Balmain/Souths/Newtown- 1 Team
Wests/Canterbury- 1 Team
 

wibble

Bench
Messages
4,661
Well, currently there are 9 teams in Sydney, and most people seem keen to take that down to 4, or even fewer. This would kill rugby league as the premier sport in NSW, and then that would quickly kill it as an international sport (even if one allows that it is barely such as it is).

Why?
Rugby league has 2 main features that are going for it, IMHO.

1) It is a bloody good spectacle.
This won't change no matter where you put teams, but if it was instantly the "best" and only sport to watch, it would already dominate the world. Other people don't necessarily agree that Rugby League is as good as us forumites do. That is why it needs to expand, so that it can seep into other areas.

2) It is tribal.
Killing off tribes will decimate the supporter base. If it needed to start from scratch for some reason, you could still comfortably fit more than 4 tribes in Sydney.

Some facts that fuel this opinion of mine:

Sydney has 4.5 million people. Compare that to Brisbane (2 million), Perth (1.65 million), Adelaide (1.2 million), Gold Coast (580 000), Newcastle (540 000), Canberra (400 000 including Queanbeyan), Central Coast (300 000), Woollongong (290 000), or the Sunshine Coast (240 000), which are all currently operating or proposed areas for NRL teams, and you can see Sydney should have a lot of teams. NQ is a bit harder to judge since fans travel a very long way to get to games from there, but it too would have a population base of about 400 000 (adding Cairns, which is a fair travel, Townsville, and surrounding areas).

(mostly from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Australia_by_population )

Melbourne of course has nearly 4 million and NZ has 4.4 million, so they could theoretically support a fair few teams, but are not naturally league strongholds, so would need to increase league fandom in their areas first.

If we propose a number of teams for other Rugby League strong areas such as Brisbane (say, 3 teams), GC (1 team), Newcastle (1 team), Central Coast (1 team), Canberra (1 team- I know it is not originally a "strong" league area), Woollongong (1 team), Sunshine Coast (1 team) and NQ (1 team)- then that is a proposed 10 teams for a spread out population of about 4.7 million. 9 teams in a population dense but fairly compact area seems fine compared to that.

Sydney is also continually growing, being one of the few areas in Australia that does consistently grow in population. It is relatively affluent compared to many other areas as well (though it certainly has large portions of working class people, hence the popularity of League in the first place), meaning good numbers of pay TV subscribers.

Last year, Sydney teams attracted 50% more viewers in total to TV than non Sydney teams. Adjusting for 9 Sydney vs 7 regional teams, and not counting finals, Sydney teams still averaged 20% more viewers than non Sydney teams (obviously Brisbane smash ratings as well- an obvious cry out to the NRL for more Brisbane teams).

Even using my much pilloried but beloved Sharks as an example, who could not really have been less appealing to watch in the last 3 years (hopefully), Sharks games drew better pay TV ratings last year per game,(they only had 3 channel 9 games) than many regional teams, including NZ (not counting finals/GF), Canberra, Newcastle, Melbourne and Gold Coast. They also had the single best Pay TV rating game (vs Roosters, who have a similar demographic area) and were prominent in several of the top rating games.

More generally, 15 of the 20 teams that rated in the best 10 games on Pay TV were Sydney teams.

Looking at channel 9, obviously now with 2 Friday night games, 1 Live for QLD and 1 for NSW, it makes sense to have a fair few QLD teams to draw upon. But it also makes sense to still have Sydney teams and plenty of local derbys for the big rating Friday night games.
Not surprisingly, given their good form in recent years and exciting play, for the live NSW slot Wests Tigers, Dragons and Manly had huge ratings (along with the Brisbane juggernaut in QLD), but Souths, Parramatta, Penrith and Canterbury did well too.

(mostly from http://www.leagueunlimited.com17/tv_ratings_2011.php )

If Sydney crowds seem a little lower than maybe NQ or Newcastle (when they do well), they are certainly no worse than Melbourne, NZ, Gold Coast (last year) and Canberra crowds, but no one is keen to cut down on regional teams, even though they are more expensive to run, and don't rate on TV as highly.

Looking at the big sources of income for the NRL (Free to air and Pay TV rights) and the ease of running clubs in Sydney, with plenty of grounds, close to each other, I'd say there is a reasonable case to expand in Sydney. I reckon a team out of Campbeltown (lets call them the Magpies), one in the inner West (call them the Tigers), and another Northern team (we could call them the Bears) would work just fine in a TV dominated era.

Then we can spread the love through Brisbane (at least 2 more teams, maybe 3), and Perth.

So if we needed to "start from scratch", a high rating, cheaper to run competition than one with a few scattered teams throughout Australia, with a solid base to spread, would be:
11 Sydney teams
1 Woollongong (we could call them the Steelers)

1 Central Coast
1 Newcastle
1 Canberra
1 Gold Coast
3 Brisbane
1 NQ
2 NZ
1 Melbourne
1 Perth

24 teams, play each other once per year, 10 team finals series to rake in the dosh
OR 4 conferences of 6, play own conference twice each (for more local darby matches), 1 for each away, for a long 28 week season but slightly smaller finals (top 5 maybe?).

And yes, I loved having 20 teams in the competition in 1995 (which not surprisingly had great total crowd numbers)!
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
So if we needed to "start from scratch", a high rating, cheaper to run competition than one with a few scattered teams throughout Australia, with a solid base to spread, would be:
11 Sydney teams
1 Woollongong (we could call them the Steelers)

1 Central Coast
1 Newcastle
1 Canberra
1 Gold Coast
3 Brisbane
1 NQ
2 NZ
1 Melbourne
1 Perth

Sounds strangely similar to what we had during/just after 1997:

10 Sydney (excluding Bears)
1 Wollongong
1 North Sydney Bears (Central Coast)
2 Newcastle
1 Canberra
1 Gold Coast
2 Brisbane
1 Townsville
1 Auckland
1 Perth
1 Adelaide

That's 22 teams plus Melbourne to be added to make 23.

I would have kept:

1 Perth
1 Adelaide
1 Auckland
1 Townsville
2 Brisbane
1 Canberra
1 Wollongong
1 Newcastle Knights

Then:
1 Central Coast (by moving North Sydney)

Merged:
1 Gold Coast & Mariners into Gold Coast Mariners

Allowed a spot for:
1 Melbourne

And in Sydney merged 2 lots of 2 teams with:
8 Sydney club spots available

A merged 20 team competition divided into 5 divisions of 4 teams each:

Qld: 4 Queensland teams
NSW Regionals: Canberra, Wollongong, Newcastle, Gosford
Sydney East: 4 Eastern Sydney clubs
Sydney West: 4 Western Sydney clubs
Southern: remaining 1 city teams

Division winners would gain automatic finals qualification

But the divisions would cut across two conferences:

Super League:
Perth, Townsville, Melbourne, Broncos, Central Coast, Wollongong, 2 Western Sydney teams, 2 Eastern Sydney teams
1 WA, 1 VIC, 2 QLD, 2 NSW CNTRY, 4 SYD

National League:
Auckland, Adelaide, Canberra, Crushers, Gold Coast, Newcastle, 2 Western Sydney teams, 2 Eastern Sydney teams
1 NZ, 1 ACT, 1 SA, 2 QLD, 1 NSW CNTRY, 4 SYD

So teams would be distributed evenly across both. The next best 5 performing teams after the 5 division winners would then make up the rest of the Top 10.

In time I'd plan for the introduction of:

1 Wellington
1 Christchurch
1 Sunshine Coast
1 Central Qld

Reorganising into a 24 team comp with 2x 12 team conferences and 6x 3 team divisions (Qld Nth, Qld Sth, NSW Nth, Syd Est, Syd West, NSW Sth, NZ and Southern i.e. WA/SA/VIC).
 

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