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In what direction is the universe expanding?

Messages
15,391
I was going to ask @Everlovin' Antichrist or anyone else who is astronomical.

So Hubble said the whole show is expanding and the expansion is speeding up.

I was trying to work out where they said it started relative to our Sun?

Also, is the acceleration a constant or do different chunks of the universe go faster?

Also, If we accept the Big Bang, how could something come from nothing? Surely there was something at the start of the mess?

It just doesn’t make any sense to me that a couple of atoms or whatever just materialises from the void.

I know stranger things have happened like the signing of Packer for $850k, and I’m not putting up anything creationist, but I’m a tad uncomfortable with this explanation.

Any insights appreciated.

Thanks.
 
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Messages
8,480
Wow... what an intelligent question for a forum like this...

I’ll do my best.... hard without diagrams but..,

When observing stars in the sky. It is possible to determine if they are getting closer, or further away, based on the wavelength of light...

And essentially...,

All the stars in other galaxies are getting further away from us... and because they ALL are getting further away from us....(ie none are getting closer)... the theory is that they all came from the same fixed point in time...


Think of driving your car... you’re at the lights on a red, there’s a car behind you. The lights go green and you take off... the car behind you does too... but you accelerate faster... and so the distance between the cars grows... even though you’re going in the same direction from the same “point”..

Then think if there is a “circle” of cars all facing directly away from the central point. Light goes green... as you drive away, every car is moving away from you at different speeds..

As for the origin as the where the sun is now... it’s almost impossible to tell as far as I know. nothing is at a fixed point in the universe. Everything moves. I’m not sure if anyone has done a true calculation..

I was watching a doco on this a while ago on Amazon Prime. For the life of me I can’t remember it. It explains all this much better than I can. But it went into this... an alternative theory on gravity (which makes perfect sense) which is that space ISNT empty like we think...

and this links into why... with seemingly infinite stars and galaxies in the universe...why isn’t the night sky FULL or stars lighting it up...??

The theory is that as the expanding universe is accelerating.. it’s going faster than the speed of light... meaning that over billions of years... stars we MAY have seen a long long time ago has disappeared as the expansion exceeds the speed of light.... ie - the light from some galaxies / stars is not keeping up with the expansion of the universe, and “dropped off”..

So that’s a long-winded, “simplistic answer” which I’m sure others may further elaborate on or explain more scientifically... or maybe you already knew this..

Or maybe I’ve just confused things even more,

I’ll try to hunt down the doco I watched. It’s prob the best I’ve seen at explaining all this.
 
Messages
15,391
Wow... what an intelligent question for a forum like this...

I’ll do my best.... hard without diagrams but..,

When observing stars in the sky. It is possible to determine if they are getting closer, or further away, based on the wavelength of light...

And essentially...,

All the stars in other galaxies are getting further away from us... and because they ALL are getting further away from us....(ie none are getting closer)... the theory is that they all came from the same fixed point in time...


Think of driving your car... you’re at the lights on a red, there’s a car behind you. The lights go green and you take off... the car behind you does too... but you accelerate faster... and so the distance between the cars grows... even though you’re going in the same direction from the same “point”..

Then think if there is a “circle” of cars all facing directly away from the central point. Light goes green... as you drive away, every car is moving away from you at different speeds..

As for the origin as the where the sun is now... it’s almost impossible to tell as far as I know. nothing is at a fixed point in the universe. Everything moves. I’m not sure if anyone has done a true calculation..

I was watching a doco on this a while ago on Amazon Prime. For the life of me I can’t remember it. It explains all this much better than I can. But it went into this... an alternative theory on gravity (which makes perfect sense) which is that space ISNT empty like we think...

and this links into why... with seemingly infinite stars and galaxies in the universe...why isn’t the night sky FULL or stars lighting it up...??

The theory is that as the expanding universe is accelerating.. it’s going faster than the speed of light... meaning that over billions of years... stars we MAY have seen a long long time ago has disappeared as the expansion exceeds the speed of light.... ie - the light from some galaxies / stars is not keeping up with the expansion of the universe, and “dropped off”..

So that’s a long-winded, “simplistic answer” which I’m sure others may further elaborate on or explain more scientifically... or maybe you already knew this..

Or maybe I’ve just confused things even more,

I’ll try to hunt down the doco I watched. It’s prob the best I’ve seen at explaining all this.

Thanks a lot for going to the trouble.

So, the furthest astral bodies are moving faster away than the ones that turned up later in the bang thing.

Where are we located in the rushhour to expand?

if furthest known body is say 100 units away, how old are we? Are we more like 80 or are we young?

Also, is the centre of the bang still happening or is the source of it all gassed out like a Tigers forward?

And on the theories on the start of it, nothing comes from nothing or it’s not nothing, so universe mate couldn’t have just rocked up at the front door of space as the Johnny kolk of sub sub sub atomic particle things, held up a beer and just exploded.

That doesn’t make any sense. Its impossible!

Are there any Religions that support Big Bang?

thanks and I’ll consider your other points as well. Good stuff.
 
Messages
8,480
Thanks a lot for going to the trouble.

So, the furthest astral bodies are moving faster away than the ones that turned up later in the bang thing.

Where are we located in the rushhour to expand?

if furthest known body is say 100 units away, how old are we? Are we more like 80 or are we young?

Also, is the centre of the bang still happening or is the source of it all gassed out like a Tigers forward?

And on the theories on the start of it, nothing comes from nothing or it’s not nothing, so universe mate couldn’t have just rocked up at the front door of space as the Johnny kolk of sub sub sub atomic particle things, held up a beer and just exploded.

That doesn’t make any sense. Its impossible!

Are there any Religions that support Big Bang?

thanks and I’ll consider your other points as well. Good stuff.

On of my first physics classes I learned the principle..

“matter is neither created nor destroyed”...

So many questions you have, as I do, and countless others by scientists, astronomers, professors, philosophers....

How it all happened, and where it’s going, I really don’t know.

Another great recommendation is reading “a brief history of time” by Stephen Hawking... fascinating read and without the usual bog-down of formulas that can be a turn off..
 
Messages
15,391
On of my first physics classes I learned the principle..

“matter is neither created nor destroyed”...

So many questions you have, as I do, and countless others by scientists, astronomers, professors, philosophers....

How it all happened, and where it’s going, I really don’t know.

Another great recommendation is reading “a brief history of time” by Stephen Hawking... fascinating read and without the usual bog-down of formulas that can be a turn off..

Thanks, I was just thinking about it getting ready to clean the car.

Someone said things can appear and then disappear in space and then there’s this business about one thing being in two places at once. Blows me away.

I suppose the footy parallel is benji marshall passing the ball to himself back in the day.

I love all this stuff, beats Brockys polariser!
 

Nuke

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,996
Brian May, guitar legend from Queen, is, in his 'spare' time, an astrophysicist. He's released a couple of lamens kinda books on the universe ('Bang!', and 'A Tourist's Guide To The Cosmos' ... or a title very similar to that) co-written by Chris Lintott and the late legendary Sir Patrick Moore.
Anyway, on the topic of the big bang and expansion, they use the analogy of a balloon. Take a deflated balloon and a sharpie. Put lots of dots all over the deflated balloon, then blow the balloon up. All the dots (representing galaxies) now not only move away from the centre, but also away from eachother too.

As for my own perspective on this, I believe there's enough evidence to show the big bang is the most likely way the universe has come about. I'm accepting of that and to a degree it makes the most sense. There's an additional theory to it that answers the question of what was there before the big bang, and 'the big crunch' is it. Essentially a previous universe existed, and like a rubber band snapping back, once it was expanded as much as it was going to go, it began to compact in on itself. It shrunk itself right down to the single atom-sized particle then exploded back out again (the big bang). This would mean that our universe will eventually do the same thing again. And again. And forever more.

And I'm okay with those theories.

But the question of "Yeah, but where / when did all of THIS start in the first place?" simply cannot be answered. And I believe that it never will. Ever.
I'll preface all of this by stating that I am a catholic and do believe in a God of some form or another. I also consider myself a realist, though, so I pretty much don't believe in much that's written in the bible (other than the essential message of 'be good and love one another' ... I call it 'the vibe' (to borrow a line from 'The Castle')). I believe God kickstarted it all at the very beginning, but he basically made it impossible for anyone else to figure out how he did it.
My simplistic approach is that we'll never know, so why dedicate our lives trying to work it out.

Back on topic though, scientists know there is something out there in all the supposed 'nothingness'. 'Dark matter' is the name given to the thing that no-one can see, feel, detect, measure ... but they know it's there! It pushes the galaxies in the directions they're going. Yes, even some into the directions of others. Galaxies can have car crashes too..!

At the end of the day, not a single human being has or probably will ever know the answer for sure. No religious creationist 'knows' for an absolute fact any more than the smartest scientist who's dedicated his/her entire life to the cause.

For all we know, the ending of 'Men In Black' might be the closest true answer we get!
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,894
Thanks a lot for going to the trouble.

So, the furthest astral bodies are moving faster away than the ones that turned up later in the bang thing.

Where are we located in the rushhour to expand?

if furthest known body is say 100 units away, how old are we? Are we more like 80 or are we young?

Also, is the centre of the bang still happening or is the source of it all gassed out like a Tigers forward?

And on the theories on the start of it, nothing comes from nothing or it’s not nothing, so universe mate couldn’t have just rocked up at the front door of space as the Johnny kolk of sub sub sub atomic particle things, held up a beer and just exploded.

That doesn’t make any sense. Its impossible!

Are there any Religions that support Big Bang?

thanks and I’ll consider your other points as well. Good stuff.


Spacetime is expanding - the universe itself. So stars and galaxies aren't moving through space away from each other, space itself is expanding. This is why there is no start point in space. There is a start point in time. We will never see beyond about 13.5 billion light years from earth. This is the time it takes for information to travel since the big bang and in an expanding universe this is the limit from any point.
 
Messages
15,391
Spacetime is expanding - the universe itself. So stars and galaxies aren't moving through space away from each other, space itself is expanding. This is why there is no start point in space. There is a start point in time. We will never see beyond about 13.5 billion light years from earth. This is the time it takes for information to travel since the big bang and in an expanding universe this is the limit from any point.

That just does my head in!!

The eclipse was beautiful a few nights ago.
 
Messages
15,391
It also means that we are literally in the centre of the universe. Then again, so is everywhere else. And no matter where you are, there is a 13.5 billion light year horizon and you'll never know what is part that.

So what you are saying is that say in 500 years (when we are more than able to realise consciousness through technology and therefore don’t have to rely on physical bodies) if we set off on a billion plus plus plus years voyage say directly up into the sky and space from Manly beach to try to get to the end of the universe, we can never reach it?
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,894
So what you are saying is that say in 500 years (when we are more than able to realise consciousness through technology and therefore don’t have to rely on physical bodies) if we set off on a billion plus plus plus years voyage say directly up into the sky and space from Manly beach to try to get to the end of the universe, we can never reach it?


Even at the speed of light
 
Messages
15,391
Even at the speed of light

I was just thinking that, artificial consciousness, even embedded in light, but you say it won’t help.

It will get us to the sun in about 8 minutes.

But you’re not talking infinity are you?

If we do the universe trip at 13.6 billion light years and pull over, are you suggesting to me that from where we stop, we look around and we have another 13.6 billion light years of distance around us in all directions? Sorry 13.5 or thereabouts.
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,894
I was just thinking that, artificial consciousness, even embedded in light, but you say it won’t help.

It will get us to the sun in about 8 minutes.

But you’re not talking infinity are you?

If we do the universe trip at 13.6 billion light years and pull over, are you suggesting to me that from where we stop, we look around and we have another 13.6 billion light years of distance around us in all directions? Sorry 13.5 or thereabouts.

Yes. And space is expanding even faster. So you couldn't even reach the barrier we are aware of now, it would take 13.5 billion light years and there would be a lot of expansion happening at the same time. Mind blowing stuff to consider.
 
Messages
15,391
Yes. And space is expanding even faster. So you couldn't even reach the barrier we are aware of now, it would take 13.5 billion light years and there would be a lot of expansion happening at the same time. Mind blowing stuff to consider.

Its outrageous!

Thanks a lot for your time.

There’s strange things here on earth too. Like apparently some birds, they sense what us humans see in real time ....but in slow motion.

Can you imagine a footballer that has ( in his mind) half an hour to catch a pass as it floats through the air towards him?

Dad used to say, science was always better than fiction.

He couldn’t buy into ufos though. No reliable evidence.
 
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15,391
Well to that...

If a flying object is unable to be identified.....

It’s indeed a UFO.

So by definition... I believe in UFO’s... they truly exist..

I think he meant flying saucers.

I was listening to a lecture about parallel universes last night.

Then I was thinking about the possibility of alien life forms appearing on earth but in another universe. Our lives are exactly the same, but a flying saucer lands on BankWest after Friday Nights game. In theory, it could have happened, somewhere far away.

I was going to ask @Parra if he subscribes to the multiverse or whether we are stuck in our own infinity?

I was also thinking about Earth 2.0. ( in universe 4865654784567.5b x 45683567b) is exactly the same except a single ant waves an antennae 10000th of an inch the other way once.

And in theory, on Earth 456,678,457,566,112 x567765577895775478432457995b, Cody doesn’t start LU and instead starts a shoe horn shop. Everything else is the same, but no LU?!

Any takers on a multiverse?!

Empirical evidence? noises and mischief from another earth?!
 
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Parra

Referee
Messages
24,894
@The Silverdale Phantom I think you are getting into Elon Musk territory now. (ie) if we accept we could develop technology so advanced that you could not tell the difference between reality and a simulation, then there is almost zero chance we are not living in a simulation.

Every thing we know points to the big bang theory. And this includes that immediately prior to that instant the laws we understand did not apply at all. Therefore we know no further. Multiverse? There is nothing to suggest so. Interesting idea though.
 
Messages
15,391
Well to that...

If a flying object is unable to be identified.....

It’s indeed a UFO.

So by definition... I believe in UFO’s... they truly exist..

I was pondering where a flying saucer might come from and apparently in our closest star system called Alpha Centuri, they think it has one habitable planet.

Its “only” about 4 light years away and if you wanted to visit earth to take in state of origin, but you only had our fastest earth made star ship probe, it’s still going to take you 60,000 years.

So the UFO folk, they want us to believe countless Generations of aliens being born, living, mating and dying on the ship until it reaches earth.

And when they do arrive, draw a crop circle, mangle a few cows and/or suck us up to stick a probe where it hurts.

I mean if you had the tech to speed up, you’d also want to make sure you can stop and woe betide Pi - 3356476 if he misses the brake pedal after 30,000 years or something at Mach 4.7.

Even if you had better tech, say my light year transformation, from what I understand, we flatter ourselves as a holiday or scientific destination for an alien.

And besides, the most numerous species on earth are the insects. The aliens might want to visit the smartest praying mantis before worrying about us. That could explain why actual photos of greys are thin on ground.
 
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15,391
Exactly! UFO doesn't automatically mean alien.

Yeah I conceded that, but if your average alien lives a 100 years, you still have 600 generations required to make it here and another 600 to make it back.

60,000 years, that’s about the entire history of the indigenous people here. That’s staggering.

But in terms of communications, you’d have to build a giant Morse code lamp and it would take 4.7 years for the report to reach home.

But I got this sneaking suspicion, @Parra is going to tell me that time is going to do it’s thing and the alien visitors are going to be younger than the greys at home.
 
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