Is Cleary a dud?

[darkbloom]

2002 you could see the rise with the young guys and older guys like Gower putting in. I don't see that light at the end of the tunnel atm

I agree. In fact I think we won the club championship in the prior year - our wooden spoon year. (But so many people allege that we had no pathways, development etc etc before Gould came along).

I believe most fans were baying for Lang's blood at about this stage in 2002. Most who say they could see light at the end of the tunnel are in fact seeing that light retrospectively - you may be one of the few who saw the light when we were at 0-7.

Why, no light now?

We thought we had the pathways, development programs, the academy all built to provide our club with the "young guys coming through and older guys putting in" - but you can't! Where are they - are they in the pipeline

So, what have we spent the last 7 years and $50m doing!

I don't think it is the coach blocking the light. It is because we have been hamstrung. We have bad contracts and the coffers are empty.

 

[Pomoz]

I wasn't being critical, I just wanted to make sure my thinking was right. So many appear to be critical of our roster yet fail to identify who is responsible for this roster. It was causing me to think I was missing something.

Was this forum running back in 2002 - without meaning to minimise the current problem, I am pretty certain there would have been passionate calls for the head of Lang that year - and the heads of the CEO and the Board.

I, myself, thought we had made the wrong move but it turned out we hadn't. I concede we faced different issues back then.

One of our current problems, and maybe you'll agree or maybe not, is that Gus' determination to secure a premiership has paradoxically created for us a huge problem. That is:

We are now in a position where we have emptied the coffers - admittedly sometimes on great worthy footy projects, but other times on stupid decisions like our coaching situation and effectively paying for 3 coaches at one time.

Anyway, we have emptied the coffers and yet also painted ourselves into a salary cap position. This combination means we have no room to manouevre. That is the legacy.

It is hard to say whether Bennett would have made a great difference - he probably would have been better but then Cameron Ciraldo probably would have produced a better result so far. In fact the odds are no coach at all might also have produced better than 2 from 9.

that same roster made the semis 3 years in a row. You let your dislike for Gus cloud your judgement. All that has changed is the coach and fitness staff. Go figure.

 

[darkbloom]

that same roster made the semis 3 years in a row. You let your dislike for Gus cloud your judgement. All that has changed is the coach and fitness staff. Go figure.

Perhaps you're right. Probably you are right.

But on this one I am taking my lead from the considerable number of people asserting that our current roster is not good - and they blame the coach or the Board - this to me is completely unfair.

I try not to judge the quality of the squad unless it is clearly outstanding or clearly poor - to me our roster look ok but I am not a good enough judge to know.

The other point is the seemingly valid information about the difficulties we face with salary cap and some long term contracts. Once again the finger is pointed at the Board or the Coach - again unfair.

I think - I hope - my point in posting was to highlight the fact that if you want to complain about the roster or want to complain about being hamstrung then you need to think about what has created those problems.

As usual though - i may have gone a bit strong.

 

[Panther Mick]

Ivan must be so determined this year to go after the prize that has eluded him so far. The spoon.

I am willing to admit we need a hooker, a hard running prop and a fullback.
I will also admit a few players like RCG need a kick up the bum and a few players are either past it or not up to fg standard.
Yet, we still have a relatively good squad that should be getting the basics right and be a lot futher up the ladder. They are not due to bad training, bad game plans and ultimately bad coaching.

 

[Panther Mick]

He doesn't know how to attack either.
Cleary’s teams in attack the past 4 years:

2019: 15th
2018: 15th
2017: 16th
2015: 16th

 

[TheFrog]

Was this forum running back in 2002 - without meaning to minimise the current problem, I am pretty certain there would have been passionate calls for the head of Lang that year - and the heads of the CEO and the Board.

We did lose nine straight, and 8 to start the 2002 season, but apart from being lapped by Parramatta in round 1, the losses were mostly by small margins, especially towards the end of the losing run. That's not happening now. This is like 1980, perhaps the worst year in the club's history. But even then, there were no name players in that side, they were almost all blokes brought through the juniors probably way too early. Injuries, most notably to Phil Gould who didn't play a first grade game, also cruelled that side.

Now we have name players. We should not be losing every week.

 

[TheFrog]

He doesn't know how to attack either.
Cleary’s teams in attack the past 4 years:

2019: 15th
2018: 15th
2017: 16th
2015: 16th

Tell the board. It's one thing to have one bloke on the board want to hire his mate, but the board had to approve it, and these stats were in the public domain.

In defence he was 6th last year, getting 50% wins with a side cobbled together from other clubs' rejects. They were robbed blind a couple of times too. So you'd at least expect good defence but what we've been seeing rivals the darkest days in the club's history. Makes me think it's well beyond Ivan Cleary's skills.

Most who say they could see light at the end of the tunnel are in fact seeing that light retrospectively - you may be one of the few who saw the light when we were at 0-7.

Why, no light now?

The last 4 of our 8 losses in a row to start 2002 were 30-26 (Broncos), 28-18 (Cowboys), 16-12 (Roosters) and 25-22 (Bulldogs). They were all competitive performances in which the team put in. Quite unlike what's happening now.

 

[darkbloom]

The last 4 of our 8 losses in a row to start 2002 were 30-26 (Broncos), 28-18 (Cowboys), 16-12 (Roosters) and 25-22 (Bulldogs). They were all competitive performances in which the team put in. Quite unlike what's happening now.

Yes very good point.

Yet I still have clear memories of the Lang being abused heavily - pretty sure it was the Cowboys game which was at home..

Oh. And while it should be the case that the Board approved the coach's appointment it may not have happened. Like the Hook extension and quite a number of other events.

Mind you, the Board hasn't been one of Panthers strong suits recently so it probably doesn't make that much difference.

 

[franklin2323]

I agree. In fact I think we won the club championship in the prior year - our wooden spoon year. (But so many people allege that we had no pathways, development etc etc before Gould came along).

I believe most fans were baying for Lang's blood at about this stage in 2002. Most who say they could see light at the end of the tunnel are in fact seeing that light retrospectively - you may be one of the few who saw the light when we were at 0-7.

Why, no light now?

We thought we had the pathways, development programs, the academy all built to provide our club with the "young guys coming through and older guys putting in" - but you can't! Where are they - are they in the pipeline

So, what have we spent the last 7 years and $50m doing!

I don't think it is the coach blocking the light. It is because we have been hamstrung. We have bad contracts and the coffers are empty.

The terrible coaching is the main blockage. There is no way we pay a coach out for more than a year to go. So 3 more years after this at the minimum.

The halfback is barely NRL standard atm got another 5 years of his deal. At over $1m limits recruits you can get.

RCG. $700-$800k for 5 more years rightly in NSW Cup.

Mansour $400k for 3 more years deservely dropped.

So not only stuck with a dud coach but 1/4 of the cap wasted on 3 players in horrible form long term.

So while this Flegg side is very very good. We won't have cap space to keep then even if Ivan manages to find a way to coach

 

[TheFrog]

I know Lang had Marty in his team but Marty was not responsible for guiding the team around the park.

Some father and son combos might work, but this particular one isn't looking so good right at the minute. Having said that, the issues involved may have no connection to Ivan and Nathan.

Were I the boss cocky of this club, I'd draw a line in the sand at the point we can no longer reach 8th position by winning every game, that is 12 losses. When 12 losses is reached, and the current problems have not been resolved, I would tell Ivan Cleary to go and take a holiday until November. Don't even show your face at the club. Have Ciraldo take over with help from Missio and whoever else he can get. He did OK last year. Then you've got the off-season to work out how to go forward.

 

[Andy_P]

The terrible coaching is the main blockage. There is no way we pay a coach out for more than a year to go. So 3 more years after this at the minimum.

The halfback is barely NRL standard atm got another 5 years of his deal. At over $1m limits recruits you can get.

RCG. $700-$800k for 5 more years rightly in NSW Cup.

Mansour $400k for 3 more years deservely dropped.

So not only stuck with a dud coach but 1/4 of the cap wasted on 3 players in horrible form long term.

So while this Flegg side is very very good. We won't have cap space to keep then even if Ivan manages to find a way to coach

Agree re: coaching. You can't imagine Bennett letting things get to this.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Some father and son combos might work, but this particular one isn't looking so good right at the minute. Having said that, the issues involved may have no connection to Ivan and Nathan.

Were I the boss cocky of this club, I'd draw a line in the sand at the point we can no longer reach 8th position by winning every game, that is 12 losses. When 12 losses is reached, and the current problems have not been resolved, I would tell Ivan Cleary to go and take a holiday until November. Don't even show your face at the club. Have Ciraldo take over with help from Missio and whoever else he can get. He did OK last year. Then you've got the off-season to work out how to go forward.

You can’t have him go away & come back. He loses all his authority like that (the little he has)

 

[darkbloom]

Some father and son combos might work, but this particular one isn't looking so good right at the minute. Having said that, the issues involved may have no connection to Ivan and Nathan.

Were I the boss cocky of this club, I'd draw a line in the sand at the point we can no longer reach 8th position by winning every game, that is 12 losses. When 12 losses is reached, and the current problems have not been resolved, I would tell Ivan Cleary to go and take a holiday until November. Don't even show your face at the club. Have Ciraldo take over with help from Missio and whoever else he can get. He did OK last year. Then you've got the off-season to work out how to go forward.

Agree. Yes but I am very fearful of paying Ivan 4.5 years of a contract to have him do nothing.

Personally, I think the team will turn things around - BUT one of my problems is optimism when it comes to my team. Yes, yes I know I often don't sound like an optimist - my posts are seemingly negative but rare is that to do with players or the team, it is the management/administration of our club I am negative about.

 

[Panther Pete]

Agree. Yes but I am very fearful of paying Ivan 4.5 years of a contract to have him do nothing.

Personally, I think the team will turn things around - BUT one of my problems is optimism when it comes to my team. Yes, yes I know I often don't sound like an optimist - my posts are seemingly negative but rare is that to do with players or the team, it is the management/administration of our club I am negative about.

Have you ever been employed by the club?

 

[Abacus]

Have you ever been employed by the club?

Hahaha. I don't think he'll give himself up. But given the breadth of his knowledge and obvious passion for the club, I'd be surprised if he wasn't in a fairly senior role at the club - particularly during the 1990s-2000s.

 

[Panther Pete]

Hahaha. I don't think he'll give himself up. But given the breadth of his knowledge and obvious passion for the club, I'd be surprised if he wasn't in a fairly senior role at the club - particularly during the 1990s-2000s.

Yeah I agree, I have been trying to work out who he is for ages.

 

[TheFrog]

Mansour $400k for 3 more years deservely dropped.

If he's on that I'm a skinny Chinaman, not a fat Aussie.

 

[franklin2323]

If he's on that I'm a skinny Chinaman, not a fat Aussie.

Gus pretty much confirmed on 100% footy when he asked how much a fellow panel member would pay

 

[mxlegend99]

Gus pretty much confirmed on 100% footy when he asked how much a fellow panel member would pay

He was worth it at his peak. Carried our forward pack for years.

But sadly an ACL injury followed by a badly fractured cheekbone seem to have killed his career. He mentioned that he was unsure if he wanted to play on after that injury. So I dont think he's willing to put his body on the line like he used to.

 

[darkbloom]

Have you ever been employed by the club?

Ha ha. I've had a very long, close
connections to,
association with,
and love for the Penrith Panthers.

They have taken a variety of forms.

Often the love has been heartache, sometimes anger but always proud (until recently) and eternal,

The connections have always (until recently) been friendly, open, constructive and reciprocated.

As to the association, there was a moment when it it took the form of employment of a type..

By the way - the "until recently" comment does not necessarily refer to the Gus era - it in fact started well before Gus, The Gus era, to me, is really just a powerful affect of actions and attitudes that had developed a few years before his appointment.