"It’s very realistic to say that we’ll have a second team in Brisbane in 2023": V'landys

[flippikat]

Premier League isn't fixed plus there's more than that many pro teams in London

Football in London - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Here's Argentina league;

2021 Argentine Primera División - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

J league in Japan

2021 J1 League - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Fixed or not, the top tier is what matters - and attrition & market forces has determined that London can sustain about 4-6 teams in that level.

Argentina is an interesting example, but you need to keep in mind that Greater Buenos Aires has about 1/3rd of the country's population (approx 15 million of approx 45 million).. while Sydney (approx 5 million) has 1/5th of Australia's population (25 million).. so there's a proportional issue in population that's several degrees more exaggerated.

So that leaves Japan, and yes.. that is a fair parallel - Tokyo does appear to have a disproportionate representation - but one from three of your examples??

 

[MugaB]

Just like I can't be a Penrith supporter as I'm not a dole-bludging Houso.

Agreed we are all flawed, but atleast we have a team representing us, and most folks on these expansion threads are out to kill or relocate clubs, just to start ones elsewhere, instead of true expansion, which is growing the teams, thus growing the talent and areas to field them, too many "expansionist" here forget that

 

[Pippen94]

Fixed or not, the top tier is what matters - and attrition & market forces has determined that London can sustain about 4-6 teams in that level.

Argentina is an interesting example, but you need to keep in mind that Greater Buenos Aires has about 1/3rd of the country's population (approx 15 million of approx 45 million).. while Sydney (approx 5 million) has 1/5th of Australia's population (25 million).. so there's a proportional issue in population that's several degrees more exaggerated.

So that leaves Japan, and yes.. that is a fair parallel - Tokyo does appear to have a disproportionate representation - but one from three of your examples??

Promotion & relegation is based on on field performance. The commercial factors & whatever else you mention are irrelevant - I think you like arguing.

I've given you two examples. You can find more if you care to look

 

[Jim Rockford]

Agreed we are all flawed, but atleast we have a team representing us, and most folks on these expansion threads are out to kill or relocate clubs, just to start ones elsewhere, instead of true expansion, which is growing the teams, thus growing the talent and areas to field them, too many "expansionist" here forget that

It's all good Brother, just a bit of friendly banter. Fact is I respect the Panthers as they didn't slink off to SuperLeague and for the fact they do so much in providing the next generations of young players. Plus we're linked by the FF - Souffs and Penriff!

 

[The Great Dane]

Promotion & relegation is based on on field performance. The commercial factors & whatever else you mention are irrelevant - I think you like arguing.

I've given you two examples. You can find more if you care to look

On field performance that is directly affected by commercial and business factors in P&R leagues without salary caps.

In other words if you aren't a successful business, or can't keep up with the best businesses, you can't afford the best players, coaches, etc, which effects your on field performance, which leads to you being relegated down to a lower tier with lower costs where you are more sustainable.

It is literally a mechanism to make sure that the clubs with the most successful businesses stay in the top league. The NRL has no similar mechanism to sort the wheat from the chaff, which leads to failing businesses being maintained.

If the NRL had a P&R system then probably half to three quarters of the current Sydney clubs would have been relegated and yo-yoed, or gone broke trying to get back up, over the last 30-40ish years. If we had P&R the league probably would have folded by now as well, but that's an aside.

 

[Pippen94]

On field performance that is directly affected by commercial and business factors in P&R leagues without salary caps.

In other words if you aren't a successful business, or can't keep up with the best businesses, you can't afford the best players, coaches, etc, which effects your on field performance, which leads to you being relegated down to a lower tier with lower costs where you are more sustainable.

It is literally a mechanism to make sure that the clubs with the most successful businesses stay in the top league. The NRL has no similar mechanism to sort the wheat from the chaff, which leads to failing businesses being maintained.

If the NRL had a P&R system then probably half to three quarters of the current Sydney clubs would have been relegated and yo-yoed, or gone broke trying to get back up, over the last 30-40ish years. If we had P&R the league probably would have folded by now as well, but that's an aside.

Premier league is different to NRL; clubs are bankrolled by billionaires who cover costs. Small teams in small markets can be propped up with aim to reach top flight simply as plaything for rich. Just different situation altogether.

Relegation has existed in Australian rugby league forever. Ask Newtown or Norths or every BRL team. And you CAN ask them because they're still around & even some are launching bids to return to big league.
Funny Perth, Adelaide, Gold Coast nowhere to be found.

 

[flippikat]

Promotion & relegation is based on on field performance. The commercial factors & whatever else you mention are irrelevant - I think you like arguing.

I've given you two examples. You can find more if you care to look

Umm..

no financial base -> you can't sign decent players -> most likely you can't cut it in the top tier.

Commercial factors are NOT irrelevant in promotion/relegation.

 

[flippikat]

Relegation has existed in Australian rugby league forever. Ask Newtown or Norths or every BRL team. And you CAN ask them because they're still around & even some are launching bids to return to big league.
Funny Perth, Adelaide, Gold Coast nowhere to be found.

The relegation you refer to is NOT an embedded "zero sum" system, like football leagues - where each year club(s) go down, replacement(s) come up.

it's more a form of ad hoc banishment when a club is deemed unable to operate in the top tier. Totally different setup.

Gold Coast does have a presence in the 2nd tier (Burleigh) - and as far as the absence of Perth & Adelaide.. not sure about Adelaide, but from what I recall, Perth/NRLWA weighed up the costs/benefits of competing in the NSW or Qld lower tiers, but realised the game locally would get more benefit from spending money at grassroots LOCALLY than sinking money into a single team in a low revenue league out east.

I think @Perth Red would be able to flesh out the details there...

 

[Pippen94]

Umm..

no financial base -> you can't sign decent players -> most likely you can't cut it in the top tier.

Commercial factors are NOT irrelevant in promotion/relegation.

Billionaires have solid financial bases.
A lot of UK teams in most competitions represent tiny village type towns because each place has their own team which can play each other through p/r.

 

[Pippen94]

The relegation you refer to is NOT an embedded "zero sum" system, like football leagues - where each year club(s) go down, replacement(s) come up.

it's more a form of ad hoc banishment when a club is deemed unable to operate in the top tier. Totally different setup.

Gold Coast does have a presence in the 2nd tier (Burleigh) - and as far as the absence of Perth & Adelaide.. not sure about Adelaide, but from what I recall, Perth/NRLWA weighed up the costs/benefits of competing in the NSW or Qld lower tiers, but realised the game locally would get more benefit from spending money at grassroots LOCALLY than sinking money into a single team in a low revenue league out east.

I think @Perth Red would be able to flesh out the details there...

Perth & Adelaide don't exist & gold coast is an entirely new entity.

 

[flippikat]

Perth & Adelaide don't exist & gold coast is an entirely new entity.

I fail to see your point here.

The game exists there, and they have rep teams (affiliated states comp), and Perth has a local scene.. they just don't have any senior presence in NSW or Qld competitions (due to the cost/benefit not stacking up AND no prospect of promotion from NSW/Qld Cup to NRL)... which I suppose means "they don't exist" as far as the myopic worldview of many Sydney fans goes... yeah?

 

[flippikat]

Premier league is different to NRL; clubs are bankrolled by billionaires who cover costs. Small teams in small markets can be propped up with aim to reach top flight simply as plaything for rich. Just different situation altogether.

Oh, so it's not like Souths being owned by Crowe, or the Warriors being owned by Autex (to drop a non-Sydney example in).. or any number of NRL teams being propped-up by leagues clubs that are (notionally) at arms-length from the footy operation?

 

[Jim Rockford]

I wouldn't bother Pippen, this idiot just likes to argue for the sake of it (just like you said). It's best to leave him and his backwards buddy Perth Red to play together in their little Fantasy World while the rest of us deal with whats happening here in the Real World.

 

[mongoose]

It's all good Brother, just a bit of friendly banter. Fact is I respect the Panthers as they didn't slink off to SuperLeague and for the fact they do so much in providing the next generations of young players. Plus we're linked by the FF - Souffs and Penriff!

The Panthers did go to Super League....

 

[Jim Rockford]

The Panthers did go to Super League....

I actually remembered that after I posted it. Still. my point about them providing so many players to the game from their juniors still stands. Something those parasites the Drizzle can't also lay claim to.

 

[flippikat]

The Panthers did go to Super League....

I guess it's a case of "Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant", huh?

 

[Jim Rockford]

I guess it's a case of "Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant", huh?

You definitely know all about that . If it wasn't for whinging, you would have nothing to post.

 

[Perth Red]

Rationalisation to support expansion is nothing new in the business world. At the moment the nrl is stagnant and has a number of clubs bumbling along not growing and not really adding much Except the odd fleeting moment of success.
If need to clear the decks a bit to bring in new clubs that will give the game a brighter future so be it. BUT only if the new clubs bring more long term than the clubs we relegate.

or alternatively there nrl needs to cut the apron strings, bring in 4 new clubs and let the fittest survive.

 

[Jim Rockford]

Whatever it takes to get what YOU want, eh Perth Red. You really are as transparent as a pane of glass (and about as intelligent too).

 

[Perth Red]

Every good gardener knows you have to occasionally hard prune in order to support new growth and a stronger plant. We are falling ever further behind our main competitor. what that means for the game long term is anyone’s guess but keeping doing the same things the same way wont lead to any difference, and the game has been doing that for twenty years now.

the tension between a Sydney suburban comp and creating a national one has been there since the arl formed and started to look at making space in the mid 80’s. It’s evolution.