Ivan Cleary ..

[Abacus]

Obviously you have Ivan ans co in a black hats. Go for it if it's your way.

I don't know enough about the board to comment. I will unlike some on here wait before throwing a coach, board or team over the cliff.

I'm not into hand wringing and doing the woe is routine. I'll wait and watch to see what the future brings.

Talent and ability doesn't magically disappear. Cleary I think will be better without Maloney. Api is a big in. So is Barrett in the coaching ranks.

I think 2020 will be a much better year.

Thanks Alice.

We noticed talent and ability disappear this year - its called poor preseason preparation and coaching.

I'm certainly not trying to discourage people from putting their head in the sand. Just remember a straw so you can get some air!

 

[Abacus]

Exactly, I couldn't agree with you more that recruiting is not an exact science. So why bag out Cleary so badly for making a couple of retention decisions then, when we don't know the full reason behind those decisions, nor have had any time to assess the results of them?

Re Gould, who was the head of everything football related and who oversaw and decided on the coaches, the players, the managers etc, then yes, I put that back on him to have a responsibility to guide the culture of the club and its players. If he didn't want to get involved with that, then he needed to relinquish some if his power and bring in a leader who could oversee it. Plus from his reactions after the investigation, it sounded like he unearthed more than just the couple of players in sex videos.

Um, when did I bag Cleary for recruitment decisions. It's his coaching I don't rate.

Hahaha, by his own words Gus was looking to bring in Bennett - you don't think that would result in a sharing of power? The point is he was implementing a culture. Anyone that's done it knows its not a 1 person job to establish - yet it only takes 2 or 3 people to ruin.

End of the day, Gould + Bennett >>> Cleary + Fletcher + Dave.

 

[Aliceinwonderland]

Thanks Alice.

We noticed talent and ability disappear this year - its called poor preseason preparation and coaching.

I'm certainly not trying to discourage people from putting their head in the sand. Just remember a straw so you can get some air!

Yep it was a poor pre season and it filtered into the beginning of the season. To some extent I blame that on the sex tapes and it's fallout. I think that's impact has been swept away to some extent.

For many of these players it's the first time in their careers they have not had a sucessful season.

I hope (and believe) that this has feed the hunger within each individual player and the playing coaching group.

Many within the group are very talented. I stand by my comment that Talent doesn't disappear. I see Cleary as an average coach. Not dreadful (like some on here believe) but mid range.

I am willing to give Cleary time before launching him off the Bluff lookout at Glenbrook. Stuart at Canberrs is proof that average coaches at times can get great results. He had been at Canberra for a good number of years before making the G/F in 19. Only his friendship with Kent stopped his name being continually plastered over the media for poor performances and dare I say 'poor coaching'.

 

[Abacus]

GI out Roberts in is a gain in my books. They lost no one from the last year the stayed the same.

Ok, I'll explain it for you. Souths had the disruption of GI's injury and eventual retirement. Bennett had them playing well despite the distraction. Roberts inclusion wasn't part of the argument. But thank f**k you're nowhere near Panthers' recruitment.

The Knights issues was Wayne bringing in a retirement home as a FG squad

After finals in 2013, drop off in performance was nothing to do with players not getting paid when Tinkler's cash dried up? Gee, I thought I was tough on Cleary.

Gus said during the Dragons game that RCG was going to be best prop in the game within 2 years...says it all right there

Says what? That Gus had a penchant for hyperbole when behind a microphone and wanted a Panther in SOO. The old bugger could also move players when he needed to in order to keep the cap in check. The 2019 squad (including RCG) was let down by Cleary and his staff. Besides, Gus may still be proven right as it hasn't been 2 years since that Dragons game yet.

 

[Abacus]

Yep it was a poor pre season and it filtered into the beginning of the season. To some extent I blame that on the sex tapes and it's fallout. I think that's impact has been swept away to some extent.

For many of these players it's the first time in their careers they have not had a sucessful season.

I hope (and believe) that this has feed the hunger within each individual player and the playing coaching group.

Many within the group are very talented. I stand by my comment that Talent doesn't disappear. I see Cleary as an average coach. Not dreadful (like some on here believe) but mid range.

I am willing to give Cleary time before launching him off the Bluff lookout at Glenbrook. Stuart at Canberrs is proof that average coaches at times can get great results. He had been at Canberra for a good number of years before making the G/F in 19. Only his friendship with Kent stopped his name being continually plastered over the media for poor performances and dare I say 'poor coaching'.

I'm not as "forgiving" to allow the sextapes become an excuse for poor coaching and conditioning. 2018 was the best the squad has looked in terms of conditioning. The difference in 2019 was apparent. Players will prepare to the standard they're required by the coaching staff.

Ah, Ricky Stuart. The hail mary of coaches. FWIW, I think Ivan's had his Ricky season with the Warriors a long time ago. I hope I'm wrong, but while players are only as good as their last game, coaches are only as good as their last season.

 

[Aliceinwonderland]

Regarding the Knight. I agree that Tinkler's lack of money towards the end had a huge effect. If you not paying your bills life tends to be very hard.

Bennett didn't endear himself to the local community. He ripped the guts out of the partnerships with the surrounding community. Newcastle was no longer the town's footy team and it hurt them badly. Bennett didn't want to foster those linkage which are so important. I have no idea why he chose to do this. Perhaps he wasn't invested in the local community. But up here in the Hunter his name is mud. They expected so much, and gained very little.

RCG loved him as a player when he was in Penrith colours. What went wrong for him. Marriage breakdown, 2 jaw injuries I suppose that will do it to you. I would have loved him to stay and work through those issues. Maybe his ongoing price tag and his personal baggage made that too hard. Who knows.

 

[Aliceinwonderland]

I'm not as "forgiving" to allow the sextapes become an excuse for poor coaching and conditioning. 2018 was the best the squad has looked in terms of conditioning. The difference in 2019 was apparent. Players will prepare to the standard they're required by the coaching staff.

Ah, Ricky Stuart. The hail mary of coaches. FWIW, I think Ivan's had his Ricky season with the Warriors a long time ago. I hope I'm wrong, but while players are only as good as their last game, coaches are only as good as their last season.

I'm not being forigiving. I am totally disgusted in what the Penrith players chose to do. I am though aware of how it impacted on the squad. (only from what I've read on the media)

From what I can work out the tapes were recorded in 17 and 18 under Gould and Hook. So I think even though performances on the field may have been OK, there was def something dirty in the state of Penrith. To me that is culture. Culture is more than playing and training. It's what is valued. Sadly women during this time were not.

 

[Crashtest]

Hahaha, by his own words Gus was looking to bring in Bennett - you don't think that would result in a sharing of power? The point is he was implementing a culture. Anyone that's done it knows its not a 1 person job to establish - yet it only takes 2 or 3 people to ruin.

Gould was talking to Bennett more than six months before the sex tape scandal broke. At the time of talking to Bennett, Gould wasn’t even aware there was a culture issue.

He wasn’t bringing in Bennett to fix an issue he was oblivious to.

 

[Dave's mate]

Gould was talking to Bennett more than six months before the sex tape scandal broke. At the time of talking to Bennett, Gould wasn’t even aware there was a culture issue.

He wasn’t bringing in Bennett to fix an issue he was oblivious to.

Its not a culture issue though. Young humans are dumb, all of them

 

[franklin2323]

Its not a culture issue though. Young humans are dumb, all of them

Bennett does his work with older players probably for this reason

 

[franklin2323]

Ok, I'll explain it for you. Souths had the disruption of GI's injury and eventual retirement. Bennett had them playing well despite the distraction. Roberts inclusion wasn't part of the argument. But thank f**k you're nowhere near Panthers' recruitment.

After finals in 2013, drop off in performance was nothing to do with players not getting paid when Tinkler's cash dried up? Gee, I thought I was tough on Cleary.


Says what? That Gus had a penchant for hyperbole when behind a microphone and wanted a Panther in SOO. The old bugger could also move players when he needed to in order to keep the cap in check. The 2019 squad (including RCG) was let down by Cleary and his staff. Besides, Gus may still be proven right as it hasn't been 2 years since that Dragons game yet.

You don't think Roberts is better then a banged up GI?

So that was the issue too after the Dragons one in 2010?

Even RCG's good year was pretty average compared to the elite guys.

Look at our gains and losses between this year and last year we were always going to go backwards. A few said in the 2019 prediction squad

 

[mxlegend99]

End of the day, Gould + Bennett >>> Cleary + Fletcher + Dave.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can disagree with this.

Gould wasn't perfect. Nor is Bennett. But they're two of the greatest minds the game has known and are well respected by the players.

Something our club has lost now. The club has gone backwards massively in the past 12 months. Not just on the field. But as a brand off the field.

Even if Bennett couldn't outcoach Ivan. Atleast the clubs image would have remained intact.

 

[Abacus]

Regarding the Knight. I agree that Tinkler's lack of money towards the end had a huge effect. If you not paying your bills life tends to be very hard.

Bennett didn't endear himself to the local community. He ripped the guts out of the partnerships with the surrounding community. Newcastle was no longer the town's footy team and it hurt them badly. Bennett didn't want to foster those linkage which are so important. I have no idea why he chose to do this. Perhaps he wasn't invested in the local community. But up here in the Hunter his name is mud. They expected so much, and gained very little.

RCG loved him as a player when he was in Penrith colours. What went wrong for him. Marriage breakdown, 2 jaw injuries I suppose that will do it to you. I would have loved him to stay and work through those issues. Maybe his ongoing price tag and his personal baggage made that too hard. Who knows.

Bennett's job is to coach. Not endear himself to the community other than through winning games and premierships. Linkages to communities is done by the club - but my guess is that Tinkler owing money all over town was the issue with Bennett guilty by association. And there was the linkage to community being done by Wayne's little head.

RCG. Not bagging Ivan for releasing him. I don't know the lengths Ivan went to to reach RCG but we could see RCG was unfit and less motivated. We all know Bennett has been through this with players a number of times over his career. Bennett might have been the best thing for RCG and the squad we had.

 

[Abacus]

Gould was talking to Bennett more than six months before the sex tape scandal broke. At the time of talking to Bennett, Gould wasn’t even aware there was a culture issue.

He wasn’t bringing in Bennett to fix an issue he was oblivious to.

Good post. Not remotely responding to what I posted but really good effort.

My post re Bennett was about the sharing of power. Bennett would bring his own expectations of player behaviour.

Cleary & Dave? Well its going to be difficult for them to set (& model) a high standard of personal expectation given the reappointment fiasco.

 

[Abacus]

You don't think Roberts is better then a banged up GI?

An unfit, disinterested 2019 Roberts is as much a distraction as a retiring GI.

Even RCG's good year was pretty average compared to the elite guys.

No argument. But there was something to work with and I think RCG would have responded to Bennett.

Look at our gains and losses between this year and last year we were always going to go backwards. A few said in the 2019 prediction squad

There will always be player turnover. Again, the players were let down by Cleary and his staff not knowing what is required of a high performing football team, including conditioning and having a general clue once on the field.

 

[franklin2323]

An unfit, disinterested 2019 Roberts is as much a distraction as a retiring GI.


No argument. But there was something to work with and I think RCG would have responded to Bennett.


There will always be player turnover. Again, the players were let down by Cleary and his staff not knowing what is required of a high performing football team, including conditioning and having a general clue once on the field.

Bennett doesn't pay high money for props so maybe the outcome is the same.

Did they look like they had a clue under hook? The conditoning was down but alot of the other issues. High error rate, penalties etc were still there. So for that reason I put it on the players who were out on field.

We have 8 now gone from that finals team v Sharks. So no excuses now

 

[Pomoz]

I don't think Ivan will win the comp but I think we could match the bottom of the top 8 like we would of under Bennett/Gus. Then hopefully he moves to the front office and can get a real coach in

Great theory. Only one flaw. He didn't match the bottom of the top 8.

 

[Crashtest]

My post re Bennett was about the sharing of power. Bennett would bring his own expectations of player behaviour..

Genuine question. How well do you think our young predominantly Gen Z roster would of responded to a nearly 70 year old coach?

 

[Pomoz]

So just so I'm clear, when Bennett leaves the clubs fail. The Broncos' Knights and Dragons. That makes complete sense. When he is there, they make the semi finals, or, win GF's and generate rep players, but when he leaves the club is a mess.

Obviously, once they fixed up the mess he left, the Knights, Dragons and Broncos have gone on to greater things. They have won, let's see, carry the four, divide by pi, ahh yes that would be nothing at all. Bennett really is useless isn't he? We really dodged a bullet so we could get Mr 47%. Good work Dave.

For the record, the Knights were a mess that had very little to do with the coach putting a team on the field. The CEO was a rookie ex-player that had no experience in managing a club. The Board hired Stone after Bennett left. A man Bennett told them wasn't up to it. What happened next, shows who was right. Tinkler failed to pay the wages of the club and other creditors, so there were players playing without their salary being paid. Alex McKinnon broke his spine, a accident that destroyed morale at the club. Bennet himself, described that year as his best year of coaching because of what he achieved, given the circumstances.

Bennett is not perfect, but Cleary is not even in the same postcode when talking about coaches.

 

[Pomoz]

No we are talking about the squad. Bennett put that squad together over a couple of years and it was terrible, full of guys who had been brought back from somewhere IE Buderus, Gower, Willie Mason, Timana Tahu....the makeup of the squad by 2014 was f**ked, it took Brown two years to get all of the shit contracts off the books. Bennett got what he wanted at the knights.

He missed a chance to build a legacy there. It would have been really easy to sign players with Tinkler cash and the rock solid back office set up they had. "Yeah, it's great here. Don't worry about the players not being paid, as a new signing we will make your wages a priority".