Jarryd Hayne accused of rape

[Lambretta]

I just have one question.

How can an unreported rape be included in any statistics?

It can only verified by two or more people who witnessed the alleged incident.

You can't verify a rape when only one person was present which means it was fabricated in order to hurt another.

Because reporting means to the Police not rape counsellors or mental health authorities or doctors etc

 

[Lambretta]

Bigger. No. Its not deflection either (by most) its bringing up the fact you cant go to the other extreme and expect guilt from every claim because people lie.
But the fact that you posted long criticized statistics to defend your piece, yelled at someone who had something traumatic happen to him (see langlands thread) for hating women because of the website bias you didnt like and claim anyone who disagrees with your agenda must be a woman hating scum.
You are just the opposite end of the spectrum of someone is a woman hating scum.

Mate, it is deflection - every time someone calls rape, we have someone say something along the lines of "women lie, so you can't believe them"

I shouted at someone for saying that false claims would be in the millions. That's not a fact, and its hardly even close to the truth.

From Wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

British Home Office study (2005)[edit]
A 2005 study, "A gap or a chasm? Attrition in reported rape cases" was the largest and most rigorous study to date commissioned by the British Home Office on UK rape crime, from the initial reporting of a rape through to legal prosecutions. The study was based on 2,643 sexual assault cases (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005). Of these, police departments classified 8% as false reports.[18]

The researchers noted that some of these classifications were based simply on the personal judgments of the police investigators and were made in violation of official criteria for establishing a false allegation. Closer analysis of this category applying the Home Office counting rules for establishing a false allegation and excluding cases where the application of the cases where confirmation of the designation was uncertain reduced the percentage of false reports to 3%. The researchers concluded that "one cannot take all police designations at face value" and that "[t]here is an over-estimation of the scale of false allegations by both police officers and prosecutors." Moreover, they added:


These figures are not in dispute as far as I know. Other studies from other countries show the figures to be between 2 and 10%

For the false reports of rape to be in the millions, that means actual rapes would be in the hundreds of millions and I'm not even close to being ready to accept we're anywhere near that and neither is anyone else.

If I offended Cogburn, I apologise, but he makes a lot of comments which have no basis in fact such as "you only need to tap a woman on the shoulder to be accused of rape".

I am not at the other end of spectrum as woman hating scum as you put it, I welcome sensible balanced discussion on these subjects and am more than willing to accept that people lie. But I will continue to be offended by statements which have no basis in fact.

I will also continue to be offended when people use single instances to reinforce a point when statistics which aren't in dispute are ignored.

 

[bileduct]

Mate, it is deflection - every time someone calls rape, we have someone say something along the lines of "women lie, so you can't believe them"

I shouted at someone for saying that false claims would be in the millions. That's not a fact, and its hardly even close to the truth.

From Wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

British Home Office study (2005)[edit]
A 2005 study, "A gap or a chasm? Attrition in reported rape cases" was the largest and most rigorous study to date commissioned by the British Home Office on UK rape crime, from the initial reporting of a rape through to legal prosecutions. The study was based on 2,643 sexual assault cases (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005). Of these, police departments classified 8% as false reports.[18]

The researchers noted that some of these classifications were based simply on the personal judgments of the police investigators and were made in violation of official criteria for establishing a false allegation. Closer analysis of this category applying the Home Office counting rules for establishing a false allegation and excluding cases where the application of the cases where confirmation of the designation was uncertain reduced the percentage of false reports to 3%. The researchers concluded that "one cannot take all police designations at face value" and that "[t]here is an over-estimation of the scale of false allegations by both police officers and prosecutors." Moreover, they added:


These figures are not in dispute as far as I know. Other studies from other countries show the figures to be between 2 and 10%

For the false reports of rape to be in the millions, that means actual rapes would be in the hundreds of millions and I'm not even close to being ready to accept we're anywhere near that and neither is anyone else.

If I offended Cogburn, I apologise, but he makes a lot of comments which have no basis in fact such as "you only need to tap a woman on the shoulder to be accused of rape".

I am not at the other end of spectrum as woman hating scum as you put it, I welcome sensible balanced discussion on these subjects and am more than willing to accept that people lie. But I will continue to be offended by statements which have no basis in fact.

I will also continue to be offended when people use single instances to reinforce a point when statistics which aren't in dispute are ignored.

Blah, blah... 2-8%...

Why do all of these studies pre-determine unfounded accusations of rape to be ACTUAL RAPE?

Furthermore, I figured out why you didn't bother to cite the source for your other set of bad statistics. It was the Enliven Project, a special interest lobbying group. The study was dismantled long ago.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ic-on-rape-statistics/?utm_term=.66e6603a4d31

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...accusations_infographic_great_intentions.html

If I were to look at the full range of studies devoted to the subject I would be left with the impression that the rate of false accusations was as low as 2% or up to as high as 41%. Weird how you ignore all the ones over 10%...

They're all junk studies because none of them can make any worthwhile observation regarding the large number of accusations that fall into the unfounded category.

 

[bileduct]

Because reporting means to the Police not rape counsellors or mental health authorities or doctors etc

Or on social media with decades old accusations that can't be verified by anyone...

 

[bileduct]

Hahaha, from the author of Lambretta's stupid study.

"This graph assumes that a rape can’t be falsely reported unless its reported in the first place."

The study assumes that 100% of all unreported allegations of rape were ACTUAL RAPES, and that 100% of all unfounded allegations of rape were ACTUAL RAPES.

 

[Lambretta]

On the subject matter of Hayne and the pending case, I have doubts that he will have any case to answer

For one, it's a civil matter and regardless of the finding of the court there is nothing which compels Hayne to go to the US or pay any damages awarded as he resides in Australia

As for the actual case against, she leaves a bar heavily intoxicated, passes out, wakes up to a silhouette, has sex without seeing a face, passes out again, wakes up, see no one at the house and leaves

Have anyone even ascertained that Hayne was even there?
I don't even see how a Civil Court, which has a lower burden of proof would find against Hayne in this matter. It seems rather flimsy as far as accusations go.

 

[bileduct]

On the subject matter of Hayne and the pending case, I have doubts that he will have any case to answer

For one, it's a civil matter and regardless of the finding of the court there is nothing which compels Hayne to go to the US or pay any damages awarded as he resides in Australia

As for the actual case against, she leaves a bar heavily intoxicated, passes out, wakes up to a silhouette, has sex without seeing a face, passes out again, wakes up, see no one at the house and leaves

Have anyone even ascertained that Hayne was even there?
I don't even see how a Civil Court, which has a lower burden of proof would find against Hayne in this matter. It seems rather flimsy as far as accusations go.

Civil courts have a much lower threshold where the burden of proof is preponderance of the evidence. She has a pair of his undies.

Have a look at Title IX tribunals to see how they handle cases with a similar burden of proof.

 

[Lambretta]

Hahaha, from the author of Lambretta's stupid study.

"This graph assumes that a rape can’t be falsely reported unless its reported in the first place."

The study assumes that 100% of all unreported allegations of rape were ACTUAL RAPES, and that 100% of all unfounded allegations of rape were ACTUAL RAPES.

Which study, or part of the study is that? I'd like to read it
I am happy to amend / alter a post if I believe the facts used are not correct

 

[Mr Spock!]

Court documents on first link below.....

According to the civil suit, the plaintiff grew up in the Santa Clara area and had met several acquaintances of the defendant Hayne.

The documents state that on December 21, 2015, Ms V was out with some friends during the day and attended a portion of a 49ers football game in the afternoon.

After the game she attended a restaurant with friends where she drank, before going to another bar where she became "heavily intoxicated".

A friend of Hayne's had been texting Ms V and the footballer later attended the same bar.

During a police interview after the event, a friend of Ms V's said "she had never seen the Plaintiff so intoxicated".

Ms V then alleges she and Hayne took an Uber back to his home, where she was taken to a bedroom. She encountered a "man with the Defendant's build coming towards her".

"The man put his hands on her shoulders and flipped her around so she was no longer facing him," the suit states.

The documents allege the man instructed her "no kissing" and shortly after she experienced an "extremely sharp pain in her vagina".

"The next morning (the woman) awoke in the same room and in the same bed," the documents state.

"She was naked, draped in a single sheet, and still in significant vaginal pain."

The suit claims the victim was a virgin at the time of the alleged encounter, was afraid to come forward for several months and eventually sought medical treatment.

The documents claim Hayne later admitted to the woman they had "hooked up" and told her they had shared consensual sexual activity.

According to the suit, the victim reported the rape to the San Jose Police Department in May 2016.

The report to police came in the same month Hayne announced his shock departure from the 49ers to unsuccessfully chase a spot on Fiji's rugby sevens team for the Rio Olympics.

There is no suggestion Hayne quit his NFL dream because of the police investigation.

Hayne has just returned to Sydney after a trip to Jerusalem where he was baptised in the Jordan River.

He recently announced a move back to his former club Parramatta Eels after one-and-a-half seasons with Gold Coast Titans, the club he linked with after departing the NFL.

The NRL today said Hayne was free to play in the wake of the allegation.

"We note that police in the United States did not proceed with any criminal proceedings, but we will review the information available and continue to monitor the civil case," the code said in a statement.


https://www.9news.com.au/national/2...-accused-of-rape-in-civil-suit-in-santa-clara

Aaaaaaaannnnddddd

Hotshot lawyer John Clune taking on Jarryd Hayne rape case

High profile US attorney John Clune is the lawyer preparing to take on Jarryd Hayne in a California court over accusations the NRL star raped a woman during his time with the San Francisco 49ers.

Clune is representing "Ms V", the plaintiff made shocking allegations about code-hopper Hayne in documents tabled in Santa Clara County court.

Hayne is accused of engaging in non-consensual sexual intercourse with a woman identified as "Ms V" in December 2015, according to court documents seen by 9news.com.au.

The attorney is renowned for taking on some of the biggest names in US sports, bringing cases against NBA star Kobe Bryant and NFL quarterback Jameis Winston.

In 2003 Clune represented a 19-year-old who accused Lakers legend Bryant of raping her, but the case was eventually dropped when she declined to testify.

The case involving Bryant kick-started Clune’s career and he opened his own practice, representing victims of violent crimes and sexual violence.

In another high profile case, the attorney also represented a woman who accused three basketball players from the University of Oregon of gang raping her in 2014.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/2...clune-bringing-rape-case-against-jarryd-hayne

 

[Lambretta]

Civil courts have a much lower threshold where the burden of proof is preponderance of the evidence. She has a pair of his undies.

Have a look at Title IX tribunals to see how they handle cases with a similar burden of proof.

Weren't they College Tribunals as opposed to Civil Court matters?

Whatever they were, there seems to have been an adjustment made and the Tribunals have ceased as they were prosecuting people even when both parties were saying nothing happened. Smells of Salem style hysteria to me.

 

[Lambretta]

Thanks Mr Spock

 

[M2D2]

I am not at the other end of spectrum as woman hating scum as you put it, I welcome sensible balanced discussion on these subjects and am more than willing to accept that people lie. But I will continue to be offended by statements which have no basis in fact.

I will also continue to be offended when people use single instances to reinforce a point when statistics which aren't in dispute are ignored.

The statistics ARE disputed. Heavily. As provided in the links supplied by bileduct.

 

[bileduct]

Which study, or part of the study is that? I'd like to read it
I am happy to amend / alter a post if I believe the facts used are not correct

Your figures appear to be derived from two sources.

RAINN:

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

The Enliven Project:

http://sarahbeaulieu.me/the-truth-about-false-accusation

Both sources assume that all unreported allegations of rape and all unfounded allegations of rape are ACTUAL RAPE. This makes their 2% figure utterly meaningless. They also only include provably false accusations in their assessment of the rate of false accusations. Try applying that same logic when it comes to the rate of provable accusations of rape under the same burden of proof. I already know how feminists will react to that.

Unfounded cases always get ignored by these studies because that's where all the controversy really is. These are usually (but not always) drug or alcohol fueled encounters where the level of incapacitation is impossible to determine after the fact. You're seeing this playing out in campuses all across the United States right now with Title IX tribunals which are fast becoming the preferred venue of choice for college aged women to raise these kinds of complaints.

 

[Mr Spock!]

Court documents from above link

 

[Mr Spock!]

https://www.9news.com.au/national/2...-accused-of-rape-in-civil-suit-in-santa-clara

 

[bileduct]

Gender violence...

 

[T-Boon]

Gender violence...

thats a padd'lin.

 

[Lambretta]

Your figures appear to be derived from two sources.

RAINN:

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

The Enliven Project:

http://sarahbeaulieu.me/the-truth-about-false-accusation

Both sources assume that all unreported allegations of rape and all unfounded allegations of rape are ACTUAL RAPE. This makes their 2% figure utterly meaningless. They also only include provably false accusations in their assessment of the rate of false accusations. Try applying that same logic when it comes to the rate of provable accusations of rape under the same burden of proof. I already know how feminists will react to that.

Unfounded cases always get ignored by these studies because that's where all the controversy really is. These are usually (but not always) drug or alcohol fueled encounters where the level of incapacitation is impossible to determine after the fact. You're seeing this playing out in campuses all across the United States right now with Title IX tribunals which are fast becoming the preferred venue of choice for college aged women to raise these kinds of complaints.

Thank you

What the RAINN study is showing is that of every 1,000 cases discussed on the sex abuse hotline only 6 people will be incarcerated.

Now lets make an assumption that somewhere between 20 and 100 of those cases are false allegations there are still between 894 and 974 cases where a woman was possibly raped.

This is basically why I see rape as a bigger problem than false rape allegations. Because one happens 9 times more frequently than the other. You could reframe the statistic to read out of every 900 rapes only 6 people are incarcerated and you still have a rather shocking statistic

Unfounded cases aren't completely ignored by the studies per se - if 310 cases are reported and only 11 are referred to prosecutors, then unfounded cases are found here. Of course, unfounded doesn't mean rape didn't happen, rather that there was insufficient evidence to prosecute and as we know, they're not the same thing.

Of course unfounded cases are going to include regret accusations. But I highly doubt that unfounded cases would be made up of largely false accusations. If we have already used 10% of the 1,000 as being false, then there wouldn't be many false accusations left here. Rather it highlights just how difficult rape is prove. Something which should cause us pause for concern surely?

 

[Lambretta]

Unfounded cases always get ignored by these studies because that's where all the controversy really is. These are usually (but not always) drug or alcohol fuelled encounters where the level of incapacitation is impossible to determine after the fact. You're seeing this playing out in campuses all across the United States right now with Title IX tribunals which are fast becoming the preferred venue of choice for college aged women to raise these kinds of complaints.

http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...mpus-sexual-assault-title-ix-overreach-curbed

It seems the Title IX tribunals have run out of friends

Secretary DeVos is looking at their legality and there seems to be a genuine push to curb their powers or wind them up completely

I agree that they do seem to be a disturbing development where due process and the right to the presumption of innocence are ignored. This is not a path I would like to see any court go down

 

[ed-grimley]

why doesn't she just auction off his undies?