Knights V. Broncos ~ Post Match Discussion

[keeney]

In all honesty I don't think that's Carney's line of thinking, because it happens constantly, he's always way too far in. He just has horrible positional play.

 

[Johns Magic]

But if he doesnt come in, the centre scores closer to the posts. Its a game of percentages. Risk coming in and the winger scoring, or staying and the centre or backrower scoring. I know which I prefer. I think that both wingers made fairly good decisions and stopped several overlaps on both sides of the field.

It doesn't work that way.

If Carney had stayed on his wing, chances are that another Knights player would've been able to come across and make the tackle on the inside men.

When Carney comes in, they simply throw it to the winger who is outside of him, which means that the cover defence will find it harder to come across and make the tackle.

I know as a fullback that when a winger gets outside his opponent it's almost a case of shut-the-gate.

It sounds complicated, but if you played in the outside backs you'd be able to appreciate it alot more.

 

[Big Tim]

The problem occurs when the opposition attack the blindside consistently and draw all the defenders to one side of the field. The defence compresses and allows the winger to have up to 3 opposition players standing outside him. The winger must rush up to try and stop the play, if it works hes a hero, if not he gets blamed for the try.

You could be silly enough to blame the winger for coming up when he has 3 players to mark, as long as you also blame the backrowers and centres for coming to the middle of the field to fill in for the players making the tackles. But then if they dont fill in for the forwards you get killed around the ruck.

Blaming the winger is narrow mindedness and shows that you do not understand how an attack exploits a defence.

 

[Roy]

any news on seage

 

[ShadesOfTheSun]

Not really surprising that Buderus and Johns had a bit of an off day, given the role they played Friday night. Close to match of the year for me, too.

 

[knights9]

Great game, we won thats all i really care about so yay .

 

[Johns Magic]

The problem occurs when the opposition attack the blindside consistently and draw all the defenders to one side of the field. The defence compresses and allows the winger to have up to 3 opposition players standing outside him. The winger must rush up to try and stop the play, if it works hes a hero, if not he gets blamed for the try.

You could be silly enough to blame the winger for coming up when he has 3 players to mark, as long as you also blame the backrowers and centres for coming to the middle of the field to fill in for the players making the tackles. But then if they dont fill in for the forwards you get killed around the ruck.

Blaming the winger is narrow mindedness and shows that you do not understand how an attack exploits a defence.

Have you ever played wing before?

Obviously you haven't, because if you had you'd know that allowing the opposition winger to get outside you is the cardinal sin.

 

[Big Tim]

It is the cardinal sin, but there are times when you have no choice. eg.

FE_______SR________C_________W__________

_______C_____________________W__________

Dont know about you but if I am in this situation I would be trying to stop the ball however I can, whether I make a ball and all tackle or knock down the pass from the ball player.

This is the situation Carney found himself in many times, and being at the ground and seeing the space the inside runners had, he had to come in to attempt to stop the flow of the ball.

 

[Johns Magic]

It is the cardinal sin, but there are times when you have no choice. eg.

FE SR C W

C W

Dont know about you but if I am in this situation I would be trying to stop the ball however I can, whether I make a ball and all tackle or knock down the pass from the ball player.

This is the situation Carney found himself in many times, and being at the ground and seeing the space the inside runners had, he had to come in to attempt to stop the flow of the ball.

In that case, unless you think you've got a very good chance of being able to stop the player by rushing in, you stay on your wing. Ask any international coach and he'll tell you that.

If Carney had been facing those situations 5 metres out from his own line then he might've been forced to come in, but he does it all the time.

If an attacking winger gets the ball in space, he'll see open pasture and go for it. If a centre or second-rower gets it, he has players either side of him to worry about, and cover defence coming quickly.

How often have we seen a player get outside Carney and the likes of Kidley, Gidley, Thaiday and others just not being able to bring the winger down in time?

And Carney never "came in to stop the flow of the ball". By saying that, you're implying that he rushed in to shut down the play. In reality, he just shifted in one or two spots in defence...big difference.

 

[stevo]

wow, awsome game. Pity i only seen the first half. A mate taped it but i don't have a VHS i think i may be buying one just so i can see though or i can borrow that too.

Well done boys! Hopefully a big confidence lift for them.

 

[~bedsy~]

It was a great game, and I was on the edge of my seat.
I was screaming my guts at the end. The fact that Newcastle didn't complete many sets was the downfall I think. A few pretty bad handling errors.
Johns made some great hits in defence, and I agree Carmont keeps getting better.
I had Bronco's fans all around, so it was good when the Knights held that lead.
I too have a problem with Carney continually coming in off his wing, he really needs to work on that, I saw that towards the end of the game that Johns started to come out and defend on that wing.

 

[Big Tim]

In that case, unless you think you've got a very good chance of being able to stop the player by rushing in, you stay on your wing. Ask any international coach and he'll tell you that.

If Carney had been facing those situations 5 metres out from his own line then he might've been forced to come in, but he does it all the time.

If an attacking winger gets the ball in space, he'll see open pasture and go for it. If a centre or second-rower gets it, he has players either side of him to worry about, and cover defence coming quickly.

How often have we seen a player get outside Carney and the likes of Kidley, Gidley, Thaiday and others just not being able to bring the winger down in time?

And Carney never "came in to stop the flow of the ball". By saying that, you're implying that he rushed in to shut down the play. In reality, he just shifted in one or two spots in defence...big difference.

The point was made that Carney was off his wing when Topou scored his tries, I was saying that Carney's choice to come off the wing was correct due to the fact that the ball was inside the 20m line. If the ball goes to the centre its shut-the-gate anyway. Even if Carney just gets in the passing lane and forces the centre to go infield with the ball then he did his job well.

Note: I made changes to my diagram as the format would not allow me to leave open spaces and put the player positions together.

Note: No I have never played in the backline, or at full-back. I played Halfback, and if the winger stays on the wing, the ball is passed behind the second rower who attracts the opposition centre, then the attacking centre has the choice of going to the line or drawing the winger.

 

[chinorocks]

I don't care what excuses people wan't to come up with, Carney has let in at least 6 trys in the last 4 weeks with terrible positional play on his wing. For a guy with his reputation you would think he would know better but he's making the same mistakes week in week out. I don't care how may trys he scores, he's letting in just as many, and Salkeld or Tighe or Seage or just about anyone could score trys playing outside Matt Gidley.

 

[Big Tim]

Did anyone notice that the tries Carney scored were scored in the same manner as the ones scored against him?????

How can 2 Wingers make the wrong (but the identical) call 4 times??????

They are forced into the situation. This is my point.

Quinn did the same thing, I dont see people pointing him out.

 

[Johns Magic]

If the ball goes to the centre its shut-the-gate anyway.

Wrong.

If a centre makes the break, he can only go straight because he would have players either side of him. If the fullback is there then unless he steps him, he'll get taken by the cover defenders most of the time.

If a winger makes the break, it's open pasture, all he has to do is beat the fullback to the corner, which he should do 9 times out of 10.

If Carney stays on his man ans shuts him down as an option, often Matt Gidley will come across to take the man with the ball. Even if Gidley isn't there, because Carney is on the centre's left, he only has two ways to run:
1) Straight at the fullback
2) In-field towards the cover defenders

The fact is, Carney has been using your method of coming-in off the wing in the last few weeks, and what's happened? The men he's supposed to be marking have scored 5 tries in 3 matches.

By staying on the winger, the cover defenders have so much less ground to cover to tackle the centre.

I play fullback, and there's nothing you dread more than the opposition winger making a break down the flank, no one within 10 metres of him.

 

[princess plj]

what a nerve racking game - omg. we were lucky with the forward pass that lead to carney's try...happy to take the two points. must say joey's kicking today was average compared to the test match on friday day night. but the boys played well esp those who backed up from friday's game

 

[Johns Magic]

Did anyone notice that the tries Carney scored were scored in the same manner as the ones scored against him?????

How can 2 Wingers make the wrong (but the identical) call 4 times??????

They are forced into the situation. This is my point.

Quinn did the same thing, I dont see people pointing him out.

If you think Tame Tupou is a classic winger in defence then think again buddy. He's a giant, fast, strong Maori winger who scores a try per match, yet he's been stuck in reserve grade for a long time behind the likes of Scott Minto...why? Because he doesn't know the basics of the game, and his positional play is horrendous.

He got sucked in big time twice by Gidley unnecessarily.

The first time when Carney scored, a cover defender came within a metre of making the tackle. If Tupou had let the centre through, the tackler would have got there.

As you said, Tupou and Carney did the same thing four times....incidentally, four tries were scored.

When did Quinn do it by the way?

Did you see in the first half when the Broncos had an overlap ten metres out? Hodges got the ball, and Quinn stayed on his winger. This allowed Carmont to come across in cover to tackle him, with Quinn coming in late to assist him over the sideline. It was exactly the right decision by Quinn.

 

[Nuffy]

Good win under the circumstances, I thought we showed plenty of spirit to hang on but the players need to learn to play ugly.

Carney must learn to stay on his wing, he scored 2 and let in two, the one where Topou steamrolled Seage was embarassing. Its becoming a habit with Carney to get beaten on the outside.

I thought Seage went off to give Mullen some time at the end, there was no mention of any injury.

 

[macavity]

He's a giant, fast, strong Maori winger

wanna be in a world of pain, call him a Maori... ;-)

he is Samoan.

 

[Big Tim]

Seage had a thumb injury, It looked bad, as he was under the posts and the doctor had him and told him to look the other way while he put it back in place. I think this is why he said so much trouble catching fairly simple balls.

That example in the first half the play the ball was centre field which meant that the backs had less room to work with. This made Quinn's decision easier. The point is they are all individual cases, there were many times in the game where both wingers came up and the ball never got to the centre or the winger as they were crowded, not sure if you were at the game but they never show this on tv as the angle isnt wide enough.

For a game that relies heavily on instincts I think Carney has done well to be where he is considering he didnt play League when he was younger. He has had a steeper learning curve than most and has adapted well.

I can understand your point but I feel that Carney coming off the wing was not the cause of the tries, I think stay or come in we would have conceded them anyway. There was that much space that him coming in just delayed the try and pushed it wider, which didnt matter too much as Parker kicked suprisingly well considering the wind factor.