Luciano Leilua

[BennyV]

Friz was out on his feet 15 minutes into the second half. With 15 to go, he was struggling hard. Should have been spelled much earlier.

 

[Old Timer]

There may be a back story to this, but was that really necessary?

Just sick & tired of posters saying we should accept the wins unquestioned and the inference that we can’t improve by giving the younger players more time than they currently get.
Far too many happy with the status quo and then maligning people who look for improvement and even better results

 

[avocado]

Just sick & tired of posters saying we should accept the wins unquestioned and the inference that we can’t improve by giving the younger players more time than they currently get.
Far too many happy with the status quo and then maligning people who look for improvement and even better results

Yeah ok but if they want to think that way how about you just, well you know, let them?

 

[The Damo]

Not sure you quite get the picture here.
We are going to lose several forwards to SOO and potentially some will get some niggling injuries and will need a break.
Therefore the likes of Host & / or Sele are going to be required to play big minutes in 1st grade not the pissy little minutes they now play when the do get selected.
ISP will help with match fitness to a degree but the only preparation to handle the rigours of 1st grade is to in fact play 1st grade.
Host is not a centre 3rd player he is an edge back rower and if we lose Sims and Frizzell to SOO Host will be required to play almost the entire game so do you really think 7 minutes in a 1st grade game is any sort of preparation to handle that pressure?
So when JDB goes off for a break Host to edge and either Frizz or Sims to take the lock position.
Whilst I do like Mann's cameos at the back of the scrum the simple fact is that he is a seasoned 1st grade player and can come into the game and fit straight in but that is not the case with Host or Sele and they need to have many more minutes in the top grade to be prepared for what they will have to do in the near future.
Mc Fookknuckle just refuses to do it and f**ks around with Latimore and Mann eating up the minutes.
We don't have 1 young forward that is getting the benefit of good coaching and planning and if they all decide to piss off and get a crack somewhere else then we will have a roster full of Latimore's and Allgoods who are happy to get limited minutes and we will again become a second rate team full of journeymen.

No I get the picture - I just disagree with you, especially about the young forwards, you could fairly make that criticism about the backs, but not the forwards. I note you’ve again not specified how many minutes. So is it Host stays on the edge and gets 50 mins, Frizz or Sims go to lock for 30 mins of till Jack comes back? How many minutes should each bench player get? Do you change it weekly and does that effect the rhythm that’s working?
And I’d note that we’ve ended up with a roster with plenty ofplayers in the prime of their careers and others coming into it. Didn’t happen by accident did it? Maybe the same planning that made that happen is still in place?

 

[The Damo]

I’d also agree that the plan you suggest is a good one to get Host more minutes in first grade, but I don’t think the fact that it didn’t happen in his first game this year, vs the premiership favourites, is some kind of terrible indictment of the coach and means we should all tend our garments and assume none of our young forwards will ever stay.

 

[Old Timer]

No I get the picture - I just disagree with you, especially about the young forwards, you could fairly make that criticism about the backs, but not the forwards. I note you’ve again not specified how many minutes. So is it Host stays on the edge and gets 50 mins, Frizz or Sims go to lock for 30 mins of till Jack comes back? How many minutes should each bench player get? Do you change it weekly and does that effect the rhythm that’s working?
And I’d note that we’ve ended up with a roster with plenty ofplayers in the prime of their careers and others coming into it. Didn’t happen by accident did it? Maybe the same planning that made that happen is still in place?

Well unlike you, I don't believe you should be too pre conceived re how many minutes players actually should play and when you should actually make the changes.
I think the game and the players themselves actually should dictate that to some degree.
However in saying that there is a point where you need to rest the workhorses and I don't believe that time is necessarily the end of the game when nothing is on the line as is often Mc Fookknuckles way.
Re players in the prime of their careers I do agree that is true but 1 or 2 injuries and where are we then?
Trying to integrate reggies players into a side to play big minutes when their exposure has been 0, 7 or 10 minutes on a very ad hoc basis.
You still don't address how we will manage or with whom we will manage when SOO or injuries hit us?
If you think Sele & Host can do it on the limited game time they have had then why would you object to them getting more game time and keeping the big guns even fresher?
If that is not the case and you believe that you are willing to lose a couple of games on the premiss that you will win all the other games on the basis of what has occurred this year then you have no regard for either history or the fact that other teams will target our key players and tire them out as they know we don't have anything else in the shed.
Broncos have just started to blood < 20 year old prop into 1st grade and he will get plenty of game time to prepare him and here we are f**king around with 21 & 22 year olds and people saying they are too young still.
Even when we are really comfortable in games Mc Fookknuckle is still reluctant to get big minutes into the young forwards despite golden opportunities presenting themselves.
Anyway we will always disagree on the point so somewhere along the way we will both have something to crow about or whinge about.

 

[Old Timer]

Yeah ok but if they want to think that way how about you just, well you know, let them?

Obviously you are happy for them to dish on peoples opinions and tell others how wrong they are but receive no flack in return?
Where I come form if someone starts a shit fight best they bring plenty with them and have it in a big bucket as well.

 

[avocado]

Obviously you are happy for them to dish on peoples opinions and tell others how wrong they are but receive no flack in return?
Where I come form if someone starts a shit fight best they bring plenty with them and have it in a big bucket as well.

Where I come from if someone expresses an opinion contrary to my own they don't cop abuse for it.
As I said I don't know the back story behind this so I'll leave you to it.
Ain't it great that we're top of the table.

 

[ouryears]

Obviously you are happy for them to dish on peoples opinions and tell others how wrong they are but receive no flack in return?
Where I come form if someone starts a shit fight best they bring plenty with them and have it in a big bucket as well.

Unbelievable.
So you come from North korea, China, Russia, Iran or....?

Saying to come prepared for a fight or expect to cop flak for an opinion really does explain a lot.

Thankfully we have an ignore option.

 

[ouryears]

Just sick & tired of posters saying we should accept the wins unquestioned and the inference that we can’t improve by giving the younger players more time than they currently get.
Far too many happy with the status quo and then maligning people who look for improvement and even better results

Just sick & tired of posters saying we should accept the wins unquestioned and the inference that we can’t improve by giving the younger players more time than they currently get.
Far too many happy with the status quo and then maligning people who look for improvement and even better results

Yep, and we are sick and tired of saying we should give the Reggie guys a chance when they are not even stars in their own Reggie comp.

A player needs to demand promotion to firsts by playing great football in the Reggie's, which our guys aren't.

I am happy to give Lomax some time in firsts, but besides him it is slim pickings.

 

[West coast dragon]

Just sick & tired of posters saying we should accept the wins unquestioned and the inference that we can’t improve by giving the younger players more time than they currently get.
Far too many happy with the status quo and then maligning people who look for improvement and even better results

But in all fairness old timer that goes both ways a lot of long suffering supporters just want to sit back and enjoy it for what it’s worth not be castigated for not being true fans or not being hungry enough for success just let people enjoy it the season will be what it’ll be but it’s a good time right now to be a saints supporter let people enjoy it as it is right now I understand your points of view you’re one of the few that doesn’t take it too personally have a good day

 

[Old Timer]

Unbelievable.
So you come from North korea, China, Russia, Iran or....?

Saying to come prepared for a fight or expect to cop flak for an opinion really does explain a lot.

Thankfully we have an ignore option.

Again you misinterpret the post and the point that it makes.
Best you go back, do a bit of reading and see how these things unfold and manifest.
People post the "oh, how grand it all is post" then people post the "we can / need to be better post" and then comes "why are you negative post" and then comes the "explanation and history post" and then comes the "just be happy winning and don't complain post" and so it goes on.
You want to be able to express all the positive stuff unquestioned and then also be able to criticise people who believe change will make us a better team.
Then, any suggestion that change can make us better is hounded into the ground and construed as total negativity.
Well I consider that is a shit fight and am more than happy to participate in it and flatly refuse to cop the idea that I am either negative nor a fan of the club.
The difference between us is that I actually think we are doing OK but firmly believe we can do much better whereas as you and others are nervous nelly supporters and think, why do you need to change things or improve things if you are already winning.
Only losses will tell you the answer to that and I suspect we will have some caused by bad tactics and poor bench usage and thus I state my belief but there are others who bask in the sun of early season results and think any improvement over mediocrity is acceptable and that is why I am giving it to the lilly livered lot who say "top 8" is acceptable and better than last year.
If "top 8" is the pass mark for the coach after the start we have had this year and in fact last year then the coach has learnt nothing and the fans who accept it are easily pleased and such simple pleasure surely can only be derived from having suffered years of misery.

 

[ouryears]

What a doomsayer you really are and posters like you think posters like OV and me are pessimists what a f**king joke you people really are.
Somehow you conjure up the thought that by changing something (even for potentially the better) we will somehow instantly lose.
Then you come up with the classic statement "When we need them they will just have to step up" well how do you really expect that to happen when they don't get a go and you will be one of there first to dish them and say I told you they weren't good enough rather than saying we didn't prepare them well enough.
Then you top it off by saying you are willing to lose 2 games just to keep picking what you think is our best squad.
Your faith in the squad is paper thin but your faith in the coach (and your rabbit's foot) is steadfast whereas I have lots of faith in the squad and not a hell of a lot in the coach and his tactics.
I can assure you the coach and his current tactics will lose you a lot more games than the squad will and you better get to church everyday and pray that we don't lose players to rep games or to injury because if we do, the current tactics by the coach which you so proudly endorse will be the tactics of a rabbit in the headlights.

So you don't understand that reserve grade players have had to step up since 1908 without first grade experience?

We did have zero replacement rule, then it went to a max of 2 replacements, with no interchange for decades.

Reserve grade players only ever tasted first grade if they were promoted due to great form in reserves, not just see how you go.

Or a player was promoted if the firsts had injuries, then you were asked to step up, for 1 match,
6 matches or more.

If you are really good, you cement a spot when given the chance.

However, no one was ever given practice at stepping up..by being selected in front of guys showing good form in first grade.

If you good enough you make it.

Yes I support guys getting a chance....but only by showing great Reggie's form AND ousting a first grader and forcing a first grader down to Reggie's.

Or getting a first grade chance by being selected to cover an injury.

But not being selected to just get some first grade practice.

Heaps of players come into first grade by showing great Reggie's form..... and cement a spot by showing what he can do.
IE. Dufty

Others come up ... and never cement a spot.

If you are good enough it will show, and your chance will come.

But you have to earn it.

 

[ouryears]

Again you misinterpret the post and the point that it makes.
Best you go back, do a bit of reading and see how these things unfold and manifest.
People post the "oh, how grand it all is post" then people post the "we can / need to be better post" and then comes "why are you negative post" and then comes the "explanation and history post" and then comes the "just be happy winning and don't complain post" and so it goes on.
You want to be able to express all the positive stuff unquestioned and then also be able to criticise people who believe change will make us a better team.
Then, any suggestion that change can make us better is hounded into the ground and construed as total negativity.
Well I consider that is a shit fight and am more than happy to participate in it and flatly refuse to cop the idea that I am either negative nor a fan of the club.
The difference between us is that I actually think we are doing OK but firmly believe we can do much better whereas as you and others are nervous nelly supporters and think, why do you need to change things or improve things if you are already winning.
Only losses will tell you the answer to that and I suspect we will have some caused by bad tactics and poor bench usage and thus I state my belief but there are others who bask in the sun of early season results and think any improvement over mediocrity is acceptable and that is why I am giving it to the lilly livered lot who say "top 8" is acceptable and better than last year.
If "top 8" is the pass mark for the coach after the start we have had this year and in fact last year then the coach has learnt nothing and the fans who accept it are easily pleased and such simple pleasure surely can only be derived from having suffered years of misery.

You don't need to write an essay every time.

 

[Old Timer]

So you don't understand that reserve grade players have had to step up since 1908 without first grade experience?

We did have zero replacement rule, then it went to a max of 2 replacements, with no interchange for decades.

Reserve grade players only ever tasted first grade if they were promoted due to great form in reserves, not just see how you go.

Or a player was promoted if the firsts had injuries, then you were asked to step up, for 1 match,
6 matches or more.

If you are really good, you cement a spot when given the chance.

However, no one was ever given practice at stepping up..by being selected in front of guys showing good form in first grade.

If you good enough you make it.

Yes I support guys getting a chance....but only by showing great Reggie's form AND ousting a first grader and forcing a first grader down to Reggie's.

Or getting a first grade chance by being selected to cover an injury.

But not being selected to just get some first grade practice.

Heaps of players come into first grade by showing great Reggie's form..... and cement a spot by showing what he can do.
IE. Dufty

Others come up ... and never cement a spot.

If you are good enough it will show, and your chance will come.

But you have to earn it.

Duty's form line was in fact from U/20's and not reggies where he was adequate but anything but outstanding. Plenty in here didn't want him to come to 1st grade as they said he wasn't good enough and only injury to Aitken got him to 1st grade where given his chance he has taken it (somewhat vindicates my argument).
The game has changed considerably from the references you are making about players coming up from lower grades as bench players are fewer and many are required to play many more minutes than ever before, that is most players except at our club where some get no minutes and others a piddling amount.
Those players will be required to play 1st grade when we lose players and if you think no minutes or 7 minutes is good enough time on the field for them to then fill the holes then you are sadly mistaken.
Re your reference to the old replacement rule you haven't got that correct either.
You were allowed 2 only 1st half replacements by players who had played lower grades that day and no replacements at all in the 2nd half but that is half a century ago and hardly relevant today when you now play with a 17 man roster or at least the smart clubs do.
For the record back then in both backs and forwards our 2nd grade side and at times even our 3rd grade side had plenty of seasoned players with huge 1st grade experience and that is exactly why we dominated.
We didn't play our premier players into the ground nor when they carried injuries, we blooded the lower graders every time an opportunity presented itself unlike this clown we have in charge.

 

[Old Timer]

You don't need to write an essay every time.

Quite the critic you are why don't you write your way and leave me to write mine and for the record you have written a few epics yourself but analysis is not your long suit by the look of it.

 

[Dragsters]

Thread officially hijacked...

 

[hermidale1]

Since 1908 people actually attended the reserve grade games to make an opinion on who was good enough and who wasn't.
Watching a couple of games on tv now and seeing who the commentators mention seems enough to make an opinion.
Got to love lounge room critics.

 

[The Damo]

Well unlike you, I don't believe you should be too pre conceived re how many minutes players actually should play and when you should actually make the changes.
I think the game and the players themselves actually should dictate that to some degree.
However in saying that there is a point where you need to rest the workhorses and I don't believe that time is necessarily the end of the game when nothing is on the line as is often Mc Fookknuckles way.
Re players in the prime of their careers I do agree that is true but 1 or 2 injuries and where are we then?
Trying to integrate reggies players into a side to play big minutes when their exposure has been 0, 7 or 10 minutes on a very ad hoc basis.
You still don't address how we will manage or with whom we will manage when SOO or injuries hit us?
If you think Sele & Host can do it on the limited game time they have had then why would you object to them getting more game time and keeping the big guns even fresher?
If that is not the case and you believe that you are willing to lose a couple of games on the premiss that you will win all the other games on the basis of what has occurred this year then you have no regard for either history or the fact that other teams will target our key players and tire them out as they know we don't have anything else in the shed.
Broncos have just started to blood < 20 year old prop into 1st grade and he will get plenty of game time to prepare him and here we are f**king around with 21 & 22 year olds and people saying they are too young still.
Even when we are really comfortable in games Mc Fookknuckle is still reluctant to get big minutes into the young forwards despite golden opportunities presenting themselves.
Anyway we will always disagree on the point so somewhere along the way we will both have something to crow about or whinge about.

Well I never actually have said there should should be a pre-conceived idea of minutes per player, I wanted to get an idea of what you thought would be ideal / sufficient.
I’ve mentioned elsewhere that I think Sele should be getting the minutes Latimore is getting, and that rotating them so he also gets to play longer minutes in ISP would be good.
Until Sims started killing it I was all for him moving to the bench but now think he should stay on the edge.
Host this year started season injured, then played full 80 several games ISP, gets called into firsts and gets 7 at the end - I’d prefer he got more 15ish but honestly don’t think it’s bad management or likely to impact his confidence. That progression strikes me as at least reasonable, certainly not badly wrong. If he kept getting 7 the next 5 weeks I’d have a problem with it, but I think it’s likely he will get more. Eg - I wouldn’t change the lock rotation but I’d like to see Host go onto an edge either 10 before or after halftime (prob after this week vs Storm, before next vs rabbits). Then if he’s going fine Frizz or Sims could come on in the middle for the last 10-15.
Mary is innately conservative, more than I’d like, but the same could be said of Bennet especially about forwards. Haas is a deadset freak, but he only got selected once McCullogh was injured, and if history is any guide then Bennett will keep him to limited minutes barring injury.
Also I’m not trying to get something to crow about - I like discussing footy tactics etc even with people I disagree with as it gives me stuff to think about. Sure i’ll Sling shit if I think it’s warranted but iutside of OV (cos that’s his shtick and it’s fun) and politics I’m trying to avoid it.

 

[2010]

Back in the good old days when there was a third grade competition first grade players usually came back in third grade.
I know we are sailing along quite well and as with any team there is always room for improvement.
Of course we all have an opinion and sometimes not everyone agrees. If someone does not agree with an opinion feel free to challenge it. Not with abuse and calling that person an idiot.
We are all diehard supporters and respect should be shown at all times. Some people have been supporters for over 40 years and these people should be respected because they/we have seen it all’