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Mafia Super League

Misanthrope

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As I said elsewhere, most townies had some kind of one off protection. It's just the mafia(s) lacking focus and dedication.
 

KeepingTheFaith

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I'm calling bullshit on that.

How the hell were we supposed to know the difference between one off protection and anything else? Unless it's some obvious hodor there's very little to go off. Mafia survives/wins by knowledge, organisation, strategy, not guesswork.

Even ignoring that for a second. Games used to be over by day 8. When we reached day 8 our numbers were still in tact and yet we were still comfortably outnumbered. So many passive protections just extends the game and when there's an adequate amount of ways town can gain info it makes it borderline impossible.
 

Apey

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As I said elsewhere, most townies had some kind of one off protection. It's just the mafia(s) lacking focus and dedication.

:lol: Bullshit on the latter. I know what you're getting at because occasionally there are hints in the write-up about whether or not someone is protected. However town have pretty much been an informed majority against an informed minority (which certainly wasn't the Treasure Hunter faction).

On a somewhat unrelated note (can't remember if it applies in this game or not) players with investigative actions should not have passive protection. Not now not ever. I'm saying that as someone who has had that role and loved every moment of it before as well.
 
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Misanthrope

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Even ignoring that for a second. Games used to be over by day 8. When we reached day 8 our numbers were still in tact and yet we were still comfortably outnumbered. So many passive protections just extends the game and when there's an adequate amount of ways town can gain info it makes it borderline impossible.

A traditional mafia game, with one kill and one investigate (and maybe one protect) typically lasts anywhere up to 20 days. You guys are so used to OP mafias with a thousand kill powers, it's natural you'd be confused by one with only 2-3 killers floating around.

:lol: Bullshit on the latter. I know what you're getting at because occasionally there are hints in the write-up about whether or not someone is protected. However town have pretty much been an informed majority against an informed minority (which certainly wasn't the Treasure Hunter faction).

On a somewhat unrelated note (can't remember if it applies in this game or not) players with investigative actions should not have passive protection. Not now not ever. I'm saying that as someone who has had that role and loved every moment of it before as well.

Fun fact: There are no actual investigators in this game. There was a role investigator, one who could ask a yes or no question, a tracker, and one who could ask questions giving a numeric answer.

Each scum faction also had an investigator.

My one regret in this game has been having too many protected players and not enough kills.

And bullshit on an informed majority. There has been only two players in town all game who could communicate.
 

KeepingTheFaith

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25,235
A traditional mafia game, with one kill and one investigate (and maybe one protect) typically lasts anywhere up to 20 days. You guys are so used to OP mafias with a thousand kill powers, it's natural you'd be confused by one with only 2-3 killers floating around.

This isn't a traditional mafia so the relevance is lost on me here.

Where have I said I'm confused? Town is over protected, giving us close to no chance. Where's the confusion?
 

Apey

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A traditional mafia game, with one kill and one investigate (and maybe one protect) typically lasts anywhere up to 20 days. You guys are so used to OP mafias with a thousand kill powers, it's natural you'd be confused by one with only 2-3 killers floating around.

Huh? You're talking about real time days instead of phases, right? I think KTF was talking about the actual game day phases when talking about Day 10, haha.

Plenty of LU games have only had 2 - 3 kill anyway.

ps. Classic Mafia totally went for 3 days I think. Day 6 was the last day phase. There was one kill, one protect, one block, one investigate. 18 people. 1200 posts. So it's not like we can't cope with different game styles.

Fun fact: There are no actual investigators in this game. There was a role investigator, one who could ask a yes or no question, a tracker, and one who could ask questions giving a numeric answer.

And every time someone else uses an action that isn't the above and it's included in the write-up it essentially becomes an investigative action as well. It's rarely too many investigators that's the issue but the combination of identification through write-ups and the investigative actions that result in town essentially knowing the majority of who town is in end-game. To compound the issue, people have passive protection. I am pretty torn on the write-up issue I mentioned, though, because I do love your write-ups... but at the same time I feel like there's too much information for town imo. It doesn't feel like an uninformed majority.

I know you don't often like giving direct investigations which I like personally. However there are still four very nice investigative actions right there as well as other actions that end up saving the same purpose in the write-up.

On the OP mafia comment, I think that's part of the problem, trying to 1-up previous mafias to keep it interesting. I think there have been few games now that have proven mafia can be successful on LU without being power crazy.

To be blunt, the Treasure Hunter faction never had a chance. They were considerably weaker than a faction that (probably) had 3x their numbers... town. I don't know about the others.


My one regret in this game has been having too many protected players and not enough kills.

Personal preference and all that, but if I had to choose, I'd go less protected rather than more kills.

And bullshit on an informed majority. There has been only two players in town all game who could communicate.

With everything I said above in mind, that's what I meant by informed majority. Town have been overly informed all game, imo. In a way, it felt like there were too many town threats yet not nearly enough tools to deal with them. Not h8in' just sayin'.
 
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KeepingTheFaith

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The other issue with passive protections is that once a failed kill gets written up it's essentially an alignment investigation when the person claims it and mafia can't do much to deny it.

And yes, I meant day 10 as in phases.
 

Apey

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^ this.

Of course, in GoT II Mafia my Hodor/passive protection died Night 1without it being written up as a typical Hodor death and I had nfi I'd even lost my Hodor because I just scanned for names/deaths :lol: I actually liked it that way. My own fault for not realising and it did not present the same issues KTF mentioned.
 

Misanthrope

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Huh? You're talking about real time days instead of phases, right? I think KTF was talking about the actual game day phases when talking about Day 10, haha.

No, I meant phases. In a game with one potential kill + one potential lynch per day with 24-30 players, you'd be going quite a long time.

And every time someone else uses an action that isn't the above and it's included in the write-up it essentially becomes an investigative action as well. It's rarely too many investigators that's the issue but the combination of identification through write-ups and the investigative actions that result in town essentially knowing the majority of who town is in end-game. To compound the issue, people have passive protection. I am pretty torn on the write-up issue I mentioned, though, because I do love your write-ups... but at the same time I feel like there's too much information for town imo. It doesn't feel like an uninformed majority.

I've included very few non kill actions in the write-ups for this game, aside from a few passing references to dragons swooping around etc. BM's ability, for example, has only been written up once. The rest of the time he's simply been PMed.

I've made a point of not including player identity when writing up a failed kill for the same reason.

To be blunt, the Treasure Hunter faction never had a chance. They were considerably weaker than a faction that (probably) had 3x their numbers... town. I don't know about the others.

Not true. JM was unkillable and Goldar, had he not gotten himself lynched, was unkillable as long as either of the other members were alive. You had a number of additional kills, a resurrect/recruit, and a hodor.

The Treasure Hunters got extremely unlucky, and it was compounded by the false census from the Noble Heroes shifting all of the focus to you.


The other issue with passive protections is that once a failed kill gets written up it's essentially an alignment investigation when the person claims it and mafia can't do much to deny it.

How so? I intentionally omit player names so that it's not an investigation. The only person who can learn anything from the failed kill is the attempted killer, and that has always been the case in mafia games.

You can't not write up failed kills.
 

KeepingTheFaith

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How so? I intentionally omit player names so that it's not an investigation. The only person who can learn anything from the failed kill is the attempted killer, and that has always been the case in mafia games.

You can't not write up failed kills.

I agree, you can't not write up failed kill attempts, which is why it becomes essentially an alignment investigation.

Player sees their character was kill attempted, insert post "hey, mafia tried to kill me" there's no counter claim because that would be dumb on mafias part, the majority then take it as that player = that character and then night actions are altered because of it.
 

Misanthrope

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I can't recall many of those happening in this game. If anything, it's been mafia/CJ protected by the anonymity.
 

Apey

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No, I meant phases. In a game with one potential kill + one potential lynch per day with 24-30 players, you'd be going quite a long time.

This is straying a bit from what we were discussing but it's worth a reply anyway. With that many, sure it will take longer, but I think you'd have to be crazy to limit a game of that size to one night kill. Enter vigilante and Serial Killer. Traditional games work better with less undoubtedly. Classic Mafia had 18 people and lasted 6 day phases with one potential kill and one potential lynch for each phase cycle. Part of that was probably me emphasising the importance of lynches, but still. It also depends on how well the mafia are doing, if they're kicking ass it will typically be shorter. Of the 3 games I've played or ran, mafia have won with all their members still in tact or lost with all of them dead.


I've included very few non kill actions in the write-ups for this game, aside from a few passing references to dragons swooping around etc. BM's ability, for example, has only been written up once. The rest of the time he's simply been PMed.

I've made a point of not including player identity when writing up a failed kill for the same reason.

Fair enough, but like both KTF and I said earlier, all that passive protection does just make for an easy claim to confirm yourself as town.

Not true. JM was unkillable and Goldar, had he not gotten himself lynched, was unkillable as long as either of the other members were alive. You had a number of additional kills, a resurrect/recruit, and a hodor.

The Treasure Hunters got extremely unlucky, and it was compounded by the false census from the Noble Heroes shifting all of the focus to you.

They/we did get unlucky, for sure. Ozzy kind of gave himself up too, lol. I still think the abilities you listed were not enough to have a reasonable chance of taking on town's protection and abilities let alone the other non-town factions, though.

How so? I intentionally omit player names so that it's not an investigation. The only person who can learn anything from the failed kill is the attempted killer, and that has always been the case in mafia games.

You can't not write up failed kills.

Easy: the town person claims the person named in the write-up was them. They have no logical reason to lie about this claim. Thus, they are essentially an outed townsperson. There is (often) no real deterrent to their safety (from the host or other players) to claim that role, either. It's a free pass to confirming an alignment.

That being said, I'm not sure what a good solution to that problem is other than reducing passive protection. I don't think players would take too kindly to not being able to roleclaim from the write-up and I'm not even sure I'd like that idea. The problem to me is that too many players are given the opportunity to make the roleclaim, if you catch our drift.
 
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Jason Maher

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Apey is right. I've used that to my advantage more than once. It's a way around "no role claiming". You don't claim your role, you simply ask who attacked you, which even BM can see is a claim to be one of the roles mentioned in the write up as being targeted.
 

soc123_au

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Just to weigh in, the only passive protection I like for town is like what I had in the first GoT. 1st attacker each night dies. If a 2nd attacker hits then the kill goes through. In saying that both the games I have run have involved townies with protection. It is so hard to get the balance right. Once a townie survives a night kill they are pretty much untouchable, they will never be lynched & the Mafia are loathe to waste another attempt on them.
 

Apey

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Simpson's Inanimate Object Mafia worked pretty damn well if I do say so myself. There was one unkillable townsperson and one with a Hodor. Came right down 2 v 3 or whatever. Probably my best power game balance wise actually.
 

Jason Maher

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Unfortunately, lads, there's really no way around it.

Of course there is. There is no fundamental rule of Mafia that says "failed kill attempts must be included in the write-up with identifying clues". I've played games elsewhere where the only thing written up is successful kills - and the roles aren't even revealed. Only the Mafia (or indy or town killer) know who they've killed. (A coroner role that can investigate dead people is often included in these games.)
 

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