Matthew Johns sex scandal in 2002

[El Diablo]

Do not underestimate the power of the donkey punch.

:lol:

i watched a movie called Donkey Punch not long ago

was mediocre

 

[Parra]

And being human, they can quite easily get it wrong. Have you ever thought that someone was going to shake your hand, so you've placed your hand out to shake their hand only to be left hanging.

Despite your belief that body language is a fail safe method for gauging consent, history and human nature are against you, especially in a situation like this. You need to read poor boy blue's post. He's spot on.

Wow, you take handshakes seriously.

 

[ibeme]

In NSW (which is obviously going to be different to New Zealand and perhaps others states and once again I didn't watch the show) consent must be given and the person has to be in a fit state to give it (ie they can't be drunk)

That is the law.

Are you supposed to carry breathilisers around with you, or carry out sobriety tests? What if the male and female are both drunk, and both accuse the other of sexual assault due to both giving consent whilst drunk?

 

[Engine]

I've never verbally asked a stranger for sex either. I use body language to gain consent.

 

[bobbis]

A few thoughts:

I think its rather dishonest of Palavi to accuse a player of rape, without judging her she goes out to pick up football players take them back to a hotel room and f*ck. One time she has a little to drink and can't remember, wakes up with a players c*ck in her and thinks its rape. Something tells me drunk Palavi would be much like sober Palavi and would go out looking to have sex with footballers.

The strange thing is I never heard her at any stage claim she said no, yelled or tried to get them off her. At some point you have to say no, this doesn't strike me as rape. It seems a case of a group of footballers who should of known better (particularlly a 30 year old married with kids M Johns) taking advantage of a young girl who got in over her head. I think a group of footballers f*cking one chick while the rest have a circle jerk is pretty gross, its not something I'd do with my mates, however they are consenting adults.

The media has every right to report M Johns off field behaviors even if hes done nothing illegal. He's a public figure with a high profile and what happened is rather distasteful and hence entertaining to a large portion of the population. As long as the reporting is truthful they can say what they like about him. The existence of his kids also isn't a reason not to report, it should afford a person no protection. If he wants to protect his kids he should've thought of the consequences before hand.

I also don't think if a women goes back to a hotel room with 1, 2 or 20 guys implies 'shes up for it'. There's a good chance she may be 'up for it', and if she isn't when they start putting moves on her she needs to object.
In most sexual encounters no one asks explicitly for consent, thus the absence of explicit consent does not prove rape, rather if a women doesn't want to she needs to explicitly indicate this. Of course if its rape I want to see the book thrown at the players, though innocent until proven guilty still applies.

The NRL needs to lift its game, ultimately these stories do significant damage to the code. Clearly some of the players aren't the smartest tools in the shed and they need alot more education. These stories will be reported for precisely the same reason this thread is already over 30 pages, because people find these stories disgusting, interesting and entertaining. The media has every right to report truthful events that will entertain their viewership. I don't really care if the players have group orgies, as far as I'm concerned if its consensual than they've done nothing wrong. However a large proportion of society does find this behavior wrong and thus from an organizational point of view these stories do significant damage and undermine the game, they damage the corporate image of the NRL and thus steps needs to be taken to minimize their frequency.

I was rather shocked when I heard one U20s player say something along the lines of "its not so much what you, its about how you treat them after." Its clear some players aren't the sharpest knives and just don't get it. There does seem a culture for some players of a lack of respect towards women, that needs to be amended.

 

[typicalfan]

Agree with that bit.

But also agree that the NRL needs to do more - and that would include being more explicit in their code of conduct about behaviour that brings the game into disrepute (note, separate to and not necessarily illegal) and punishments as a motivation for current players to change the culture at the top, education programs and mentoring for younger guys coming through.

If the NRL did this (instead of thinking head in the sand they are doing enough) and players followed suit, then the program in 10 years time would be all about a different code. And our code would gain/keep/have the inside run for greater participation rates and family attendences and ratings in comparison.

I agree with adding these things into the NRL code of conduct but I wouldn't do it at the possible expense of the great characters and players of our game. Each individual should be held accountable for their actions.

That would help stop these things happening and stamp out players with potential issues in the game.

But Matt Johns unless what he did was illegal should be left out of that, that was a time when players private lives were more private and that is fine, we don't want to haul ex players over coals because of our current standing. Where do we draw the line? I dont want us dragging players from the 70's, 80's and 90's over hot coals because they don't fall under the current climates code of morality or publicity.

 

[bartman]

And being human, they can quite easily get it wrong. Have you ever thought that someone was going to shake your hand, so you've placed your hand out to shake their hand only to be left hanging.

Yes, but when you get that wrong, you quickly know and correct yourself, instead of plow on for 5 minutes with some mates clapping in time.

Despite your belief that body language is a fail safe method for gauging consent, history and human nature are against you, especially in a situation like this. You need to read poor boy blue's post. He's spot on.

I never said it was failsafe? You need to read my posts porperly. I just offered these examples as other ways of gauging consent.

I have read Poor Boy's post. The bit I think resonates most was this:

I personally think that we as humans love to dance around issues before we ever try and tackle them head on. Thats whats needed more. If by highlighting and examining these issues we are shedding some insight into whats occuring, then i think we can learn from it. Its in the public eye, and this should serve as a greater impetus to really get to the bottom of the issue and tackle it head on: starting with players atitudes toward women.

 

[ibeme]

Wow, you take handshakes seriously.

Obviously it's an example of how body language isn't a fail safe method of determining what people want.

 

[Parra]

And the ramifications of getting it wrong are trivial. Completely irrelevant.

 

[Engine]

a Few Thoughts:

I Think Its Rather Dishonest Of Palavi To Accuse A Player Of Rape, Without Judging Her She Goes Out To Pick Up Football Players Take Them Back To A Hotel Room And F*ck. One Time She Has A Little To Drink And Can't Remember, Wakes Up With A Players C*ck In Her And Thinks Its Rape. Something Tells Me Drunk Palavi Would Be Much Like Sober Palavi And Would Go Out Looking To Have Sex With Footballers.

The Strange Thing Is I Never Heard Her At Any Stage Claim She Said No, Yelled Or Tried To Get Them Off Her. At Some Point You Have To Say No, This Doesn't Strike Me As Rape. It Seems A Case Of A Group Of Footballers Who Should Of Known Better (particularlly A 30 Year Old Married With Kids M Johns) Taking Advantage Of A Young Girl Who Got In Over Her Head. I Think A Group Of Footballers F*cking One Chick While The Rest Have A Circle Jerk Is Pretty Gross, Its Not Something I'd Do With My Mates, However They Are Consenting Adults.

The Media Has Every Right To Report M Johns Off Field Behaviors Even If Hes Done Nothing Illegal. He's A Public Figure With A High Profile And What Happened Is Rather Distasteful And Hence Entertaining To A Large Portion Of The Population. As Long As The Reporting Is Truthful They Can Say What They Like About Him. The Existence Of His Kids Also Isn't A Reason Not To Report, It Should Afford A Person No Protection. If He Wants To Protect His Kids He Should've Thought Of The Consequences Before Hand.

I Also Don't Think If A Women Goes Back To A Hotel Room With 1, 2 Or 20 Guys Implies 'shes Up For It'. There's A Good Chance She May Be 'up For It', And If She Isn't When They Start Putting Moves On Her She Needs To Object.
In Most Sexual Encounters No One Asks Explicitly For Consent, Thus The Absence Of Explicit Consent Does Not Prove Rape, Rather If A Women Doesn't Want To She Needs To Explicitly Indicate This. Of Course If Its Rape I Want To See The Book Thrown At The Players, Though Innocent Until Proven Guilty Still Applies.

The Nrl Needs To Lift Its Game, Ultimately These Stories Do Significant Damage To The Code. Clearly Some Of The Players Aren't The Smartest Tools In The Shed And They Need Alot More Education. These Stories Will Be Reported For Precisely The Same Reason This Thread Is Already Over 30 Pages, Because People Find These Stories Disgusting, Interesting And Entertaining. The Media Has Every Right To Report Truthful Events That Will Entertain Their Viewership. I Don't Really Care If The Players Have Group Orgies, As Far As I'm Concerned If Its Consensual Than They've Done Nothing Wrong. However A Large Proportion Of Society Does Find This Behavior Wrong And Thus From An Organizational Point Of View These Stories Do Significant Damage And Undermine The Game, They Damage The Corporate Image Of The Nrl And Thus Steps Needs To Be Taken To Minimize Their Frequency.

I Was Rather Shocked When I Heard One U20s Player Say Something Along The Lines Of "its Not So Much What You, Its About How You Treat Them After." Its Clear Some Players Aren't The Sharpest Knives And Just Don't Get It. There Does Seem A Culture For Some Players Of A Lack Of Respect Towards Women, That Needs To Be Amended.

The Best Post Ever On This Issue!!!

 

[bartman]

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-new...as-destroyed-my-life-woman-20090511-b0ok.html

This is a pretty good summary of the program content for those who didn't watch, as far as the Sharks/Johns incident and Gallop's overall response goes.

Group sex has destroyed my life: Woman

May 11, 2009 - 10:59PM
A woman at the centre of sex allegations against Cronulla players says her life has been destroyed by the incident and she's wanted to kill some of the players.

The woman, who does not wish to be identified, says a night in which she had group sex with several Cronulla players at a Christchurch hotel seven years ago has left her with psychological damage and led her to abandoning her studies.

The New Zealand Accident and Compensation Commission has found she was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, has funded treatment for her and given her a weekly payment, ABC Television has reported on Monday.

Psychiatrists reported that she was suicidal, had cut her wrists several times and bought a rope to hang herself.

She told the ABC TV 4 Corners program she felt degraded and traumatised by the incident and despised the players involved.

Ex-Cronulla player Matthew Johns has admitted involvement in the incident but says it was consensual.

Among new allegations aired on Monday, the woman said two men rubbed their penises in her face while other men stood watching and masturbating.

Six men had sex with her while another six looked on. There was always someone touching her, she said.

"For years and years afterwards I was drinking a lot, crying a lot and losing a lot of friends and doing quite destructive things to myself and other people," she told the program.

"At the end of it, I wasn't so much drinking heaps and heaps, I was more scared to go out of the house."

She said the destructive period lasted about four or five years and she was now speaking out to let the wives and girlfriends of those involved know what they had done.

"I was so angry and I wanted their lives destroyed like mine was," she said.

"If I had a gun I'd shoot them right now.

"I hate them. They disgust me. For all that they did, I hate them so much."

The woman said Matthew Johns came up to her after the incident and apologised for others coming into the room.

Christchurch police Detective Sergeant Neville Jenkins said that in the years after the incident he saw the woman "struggling with life".

"I didn't know her prior to this episode, but presumably I'm led to believe this is as a result of what happened to her at that time," he said.

She had called him several times over the years in a "distressed state," he said.

The program said the NZ case was just one of a number of incidents in which women had been similarly mistreated.

It said incidents of group sex historically had been perceived as "a tool" to facilitate team bonding, and such degrading treatment of women persisted in some quarters of the sport.

NRL CEO David Gallop, on behalf of the game, issued an apology for the NZ and other incidents.

"The distress of the victims spoke for itself and to the extent that the game can apologise for the actions of individuals then I offer that apology unreservedly," he wrote in the statement released after the program.

He said the program "dealt with issues that I would hope everyone in the game finds appalling and unacceptable".

"It is important, however, to understand the very substantial efforts the NRL, the clubs and the players have made in changing attitudes, particularly since 2004.

"It is also important to recognise the clear actions taken by the NRL and our clubs against those who breach our codes of conduct."

 

[Parra]

Bobbis' quote is spot on.

How did you mangle it so much just by quoting it?

 

[Engine]

As can see, I concentrated on every word Bibbis typed

 

[ibeme]

Yes, but when you get that wrong, you quickly know and correct yourself, instead of plow on for 5 minutes with some mates clapping in time.

If that is what happened, then of course it's sexual assault. I've heard no such claims in this case.

I never said it was failsafe? You need to read my posts porperly. I just offered these examples as other ways of gauging consent.

Then you also need to accept that it's possible to get it wrong

I have read Poor Boy's post. The bit I think resonates most was this:

That's fine, but you don't seem to want to comment on the rest of hist post which explains the complexities of a situation you seem to think is black and white.

 

[Engine]

I wonder if Reg will continue to lick women on the ear.

 

[bartman]

If that is what happened, then of course it's sexual assault. I've heard no such claims in this case.

The bit about where Johns felt the need to apologise after the event for letting other guys into the room isn't a claim as such, but it does leave the issue of "consent" open, imo. (Not legally of course as there wasn't evidence to the contrary, but it does leave the viewing population's moral perception of whether this was consensual open, and that has impacts for the code.)

Then you also need to accept that it's possible to get it wrong

never said it wasn't possible to get it wrong?

I was replying to posts where people were asking for it to be explained to them what tests could be used to judge consent, other than the explicit use of the word no, or asking the explicit question during stages of the interaction.

I've learned there's several people who post here I wouldn't want to have sex with, based on their limited view and understanding of how to judge consent.

That's fine, but you don't seem to want to comment on the rest of hist post which explains the complexities of a situation you seem to think is black and white.

Geez, it was a lengthy post... I just highlighted the bit that I think broke through to the core of what is going on here.

And I'm not sure what you are assuming I think is black and white? I think the game has a problem with its players attitude to women, and needs to do more to change that for the future, for the games own sake as well as the moral aspects for the players themselves. That's the black and white bit for me.

I'm usually happy just leaving people to have their own opinion even when it's different to mine. Though I will respond to people directly challenging my opinion (such as yourself), and I will challenge some opinions directly where I feel warranted (such as El D's earlier in the thread). But I found the rest of the post you're again referring me to not really remarkable more than others either way.

 

[typicalfan]

And the ramifications of getting it wrong are trivial. Completely irrelevant.

On another note you wonder where a culture like this starts and why it is what it is.

Have you ever watched the old Simply the Best advertisements? Now without knowing the culture of Rugby League beforehand to a strong extent you can see how a potential young player could be swooped into a male dominant culture.

 

[bobbis]

As can see, I concentrated on every word Bibbis typed

I appreciate the commitment.

 

[sneagle]

Good post Bobbis.

What does concern me is Pavali "hooking" these willing girls up with football players, especially after her rape allegation, and her claim that at the club they were at there were no shortage of girls and football players disappearing to the toilets for sex...

There definitely is a need for education on both the male and female parts - not only to respect each other but also themselves, and the need for individual responsibility.

I think this "culture" has been around for sometime - I first remember hearing something along these lines when I watched "Puberty Blues" when I was young, the panel van - 3 guys and a girl and I thought that was disgusting ( someone correct me if I'm wrong - been a while since I watched it ) and there was something about about "slops" mentioned YUKKKKK..

 

[Timmah]

Good post Bobbis.

What does concern me is Pavali "hooking" these willing girls up with football players, especially after her rape allegation, and her claim that at the club they were at there were no shortage of girls and football players disappearing to the toilets for sex...

There definitely is a need for education on both the male and female parts - not only to respect each other but also themselves, and the need for individual responsibility.

I think this "culture" has been around for sometime - I first remember hearing something along these lines when I watched "Puberty Blues" when I was young, the panel van - 3 guys and a girl and I thought that was disgusting ( someone correct me if I'm wrong - been a while since I watched it ) and there was something about about "slops" mentioned YUKKKKK..

Well said and I'm glad someone's highlighted that. It sounds like it's all well and good for these women to parade themselves around and act like pieces of meat. Both sides of the fence need to learn to respect themselves.

bartman, if you think that article accurately summarises the 48 minute program you've either not watched it all, watched it in part, or closed your eyes and blocked your ears for half of it.




My analysis:

Let me preface my remarks by saying there is clearly a problem with some people in the game. These kids get the superstar tag too early and get over-confident. There is simply no denying that. Alcohol is an issue to be looked at - the Knights came out of it smelling like roses as they should have. The culture change there is to be applauded under Brian Smith. I do believe there are a lot of clubs heading in the right direction, but there's a long road to travel there.

For me though, the program’s credibility was shot to pieces in three big ways.
- Sarah... surname escapes me... Durezza? – the woman whose father was in the altercation with Watmough – she comes across as dishonest, immature and to be perfectly honest, a rotten liar. Almost as if she’s telling a story rather than relaying facts.
- At what point did the Cronulla ’02 woman bother to say no? I’m sorry but there’s an onus on her to not partake. The grey areas described in the last few pages by ibeme and PBB aside, the depth of description she’s gone to throughout the interview tells me she was fully aware of what was occurring throughout the incident. I have no doubt she suffers mental scars but at what point did she withdraw consent? The sexist notion that consent is a one way street (that men must assume it all) is archaic as it is ludicrous. If she doesn’t want to be there, she says no, screams, gets out of there. Whatever - but she gets herself out of that situation. If they pursue the matter from that point then it is criminal and proof can be gained if they use force. In the end, there’s no excusing the “up to 11 peoples” (or 12 if you believe bartman's article he posted) actions – although they appear legal and consented based on police investigation and the act itself is not something most people find normal.
- Charmayne Palavi. The entire program took a massive hit by bothering with her. She has no credibility. Her accusations of rape are absolutely disgusting and completely without merit. Her story appears baseless and quite frankly she comes across as overly confident to the point of dishonest. I have no doubt there are plenty of players out there, around that age, that are hot-headed, full of piss and self-important... but her credibility is through the floor. Her public image is no secret and to suggest it would be dragged through the mud if she reported her supposed experience... it’s akin finding dog sh*t on a lawn recently fertilised with chicken sh*t – it all stinks.

I want league’s image cleaned up as much as the next person. I don’t want other codes’ players to be committing similar sins and escaping it. I don’t want players private lives, their sexual lives, made public unless a criminal accusation is made and later proven. I don’t want every groupie thinking they can make a quick buck (as no doubt Palavi did). I want a better future for this game but my fear is with the media climate (i.e. saturation) that even the innocent incidents that may occur, and in some cases complete lack of incidents, that our game may not be able to clean that up, simply due to the amount of people out there seeking to damage the sport we love.

In summary, the fact my tax dollars paid for that smear campaign makes me sick. I hope it does it’s job to help mend league’s tattered image but I fear it’s done much worse, and probably damaged it further. I would not be surprised to see tape on jerseys in the coming weeks at some clubs as sponsors decide it's all too much.

On a final note I’m considering lodging an official complaint with the ACMA in regards to the display of pornographic images. Pictures of erect penises have no place on television. If you want to see that rubbish, go rent a porno. Who approved that crap?