Michael McGuire - Kiwis coach

[ZEROMISSTACKLES]

Apologies to @Manu Vatuvei and @WellsNZ Im at work so I cant type properly. Ill post my thoughts exactly after

 

[WellsNZ]

No these are youngsters. We need to make the kiwis jersey something kids aspire to be. Winning helps a lot.

Im just concerned about the future.

And again, if that's what they want to do, off they go.

For the jersey to be something to aspire to you need to put it on a pedestal not let it be an option when it suits people.

 

[WellsNZ]

Apologies to @Manu Vatuvei and @WellsNZ Im at work so I cant type properly. Ill post my thoughts exactly after

Keep up the hard work bro haha

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I actually think my position is somewhere in the middle of you two.

I don’t agree about the ‘island boys’ playing for Tonga or Samoa. They aren’t from Tonga or Samoa. They’re from New Zealand.

 

[WellsNZ]

It depends how literal you want to take "from" or how you interpret it and how firm you want to enforce it.

One problem with League is if you interpret too extremely then there's even less international depth.

But even Union has cases like Shields now about to become "English".

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I know this is unpopular but I’ve never understood the big push to stengthen Tonga and Samoa.

What’s the point of strengthening a national team without actually strengthening that nation?

No-one is going back to live in Tonga or Samoa. 50 years from now no-one will even qualify to play for them. What’s the point?

 

[ZEROMISSTACKLES]

Ok, I shouldn't have said you guys are sulking/crying/moaning when you guys were just expressing your honest opinions. I don't apologise because thats how it came across to me but I do respect YOUR fellas knowledge of all things rugby league.

Back to the Tongans...I agree with you guys that "the defectors" have disrespected the Kiwis jersey but they have their reasons and while its hard for you guys to see past what seems to be a betrayal, Kidwells mismanagement of these players is what I find far more unacceptable and a fair reason for these guys to leave HIS team. Taumalolo apologised because he loves the kiwi jersey. The Kangaroos chased Jasons signature very early on his career for big bucks but he chose the Kiwis. After Kidwell benched him for 30 or so minutes and reports of Jason not liking Kidwell, it was clear to me that there was problem there but Kidwell never fixed it. Kidwell never fixed a god damn thing.

Those guys left Kidwells team, not the Kiwis and I'd be damned if anyones idea of the Kiwis is a team that draws with Scotland and loses to Tonga and Fiji. Thats not the Kiwis man.

 

[ZEROMISSTACKLES]

I know this is unpopular but I’ve never understood the big push to stengthen Tonga and Samoa.

What’s the point of strengthening a national team without actually strengthening that nation?

No-one is going back to live in Tonga or Samoa. 50 years from now no-one will even qualify to play for them. What’s the point?

You know very well why they are trying to strengthen those nations and thats to strengthen the game world wide.

You are right about one thing - islanders are leaving the islands for NZ and Aus.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

You know very well why they are trying to strengthen those nations and thats to strengthen the game world wide.

You are right about one thing - islanders are leaving the islands for NZ and Aus.

How does it strengthen the game worldwide to empower countries with a population of 100,000 people by giving them a national team of players who aren’t from their nation?

This is a serious question and people seem to be scared to address it.

I’ve been called racist for bringing this up. It’s f**king mental. Isn’t it racist to say that someone who’s born in Auckland is ‘really Tongan’? I just want to embrace my peers from my town ffs

 

[ZEROMISSTACKLES]

How does it strengthen the game worldwide to empower countries with a population of 100,000 people by giving them a national team of players who aren’t from their nation?

As you have already heard - by doing so, it helps with the growth of the game. League as you know is a small game thats played by so few ethnicities. You got to start with those ethnic groups that contribute so many players to the game. It really becomes a numbers game and basically league needs more people playing or interested in it for it to be truly global.

This is a serious question and people seem to be scared to address it.

I’ve been called racist for bringing this up. It’s f**king mental. Isn’t it racist to say that someone who’s born in Auckland is ‘really Tongan’? I just want to embrace my peers from my town ffs

Nah I know what you mean. I guess Islanders see what you're saying disrespectful in that your trying to discredit their race. Theres so many points to debate here but I get what youre saying and its not racist.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

It’s an issue that’s bigger than sport. I like people embracing different cultures; but when a New Zealander who has never been to Nuku’alofa feels more Tongan than Kiwi I don’t think that’s a beautiful thing, I think that’s a problem in our community

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

The dominant rugby league communities in NZ are not Tongan or Samoan, they are South Aucklanders or West Aucklanders.

Go to Apia or Nuku’alofa and point me in the direction of rugby league. This is all bullshit.

I’ll stop now, but honestly this really deeply bothers me.

 

[ZEROMISSTACKLES]

It’s an issue that’s bigger than sport. I like people embracing different cultures; but when a New Zealander who has never been to Nuku’alofa feels more Tongan than Kiwi I don’t think that’s a beautiful thing, I think that’s a problem in our community

I think all kiwis of pacific island descent are proud to be a New Zealander. We have a beautiful country and most of us are 'good sorts'. They are equally as proud of their ethnicity and so they should be.

When YOU look at an asian or an indian you dont consciously think of them as kiwis, you think of them as whatever you deem their ethnicity to be. Its the same when you look at islanders and so you cant really turn around and then say 'they're kiwis' because youre actually thinking theyre islanders. I hope you get what Im saying. Not trying to argue with you here but maybe as good as NZ is, we aint exactly all one people.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I think all kiwis of pacific island descent are proud to be a New Zealander. We have a beautiful country and most of us are 'good sorts'. They are equally as proud of their ethnicity and so they should be.

When YOU look at an asian or an indian you dont consciously think of them as kiwis, you think of them as whatever you deem their ethnicity to be. Its the same when you look at islanders and so you cant really turn around and then say 'they're kiwis' because youre actually thinking theyre islanders. I hope you get what Im saying. Not trying to argue with you here but maybe as good as NZ is, we aint exactly all one people.

If they have lived mostly in NZ I would consider them mostly a Kiwi.

I sure as shit don’t consider Fus or Taumalolo ‘Tongan’ when they’ve never lived there. They are from NZ, fact.

This all just undermines international sport. These aren’t ethnic teams, they’re national teams

 

[ZEROMISSTACKLES]

If they have lived mostly in NZ I would consider them mostly a Kiwi.

I sure as shit don’t consider Fus or Taumalolo ‘Tongan’ when they’ve never lived there. They are from NZ, fact.

This all just undermines international sport. These aren’t ethnic teams, they’re national teams

Even in New Zealand Tongans get called 'coconuts'.

Have you heard Kata speak kiwi english? he's fresh as. The kiwis team also play a part in what you see as an undermining of international sport.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Kata and Hurrell are genuine rarities in that they are actually Tongan

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

....nevertheless, it made sense for Kata to play for NZ since there aren’t enough RL players from Tonga to form a competitive team. Nothing sinister about that.

 

[ZEROMISSTACKLES]

....nevertheless, it made sense for Kata to play for NZ since there aren’t enough RL players from Tonga to form a competitive team. Nothing sinister about that.

Im more than happy to take born and bred Tongan players. Whatever it takes to make our team great. Its just that you guys don't like it when the tables are turned. If Tamou or Papalii or Ponga (these guys pledged allegiance to Aussie) one day decided they want to play for the kiwis then Im all for it.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Im more than happy to take born and bred Tongan players. Whatever it takes to make our team great. Its just that you guys don't like it when the tables are turned. If Tamou or Papalii or Ponga (these guys pledged allegiance to Aussie) one day decided they want to play for the kiwis then Im all for it.

You keep talking about the tables being turned but you haven’t explained what you mean by that.

It’s impossible for the Islands to ‘turn the tables’ because that assumes there are a lot of players from the islands playing for NZ, but there aren’t.

It’s always just been a varying amount of NZers playing for the islands. Not the other way to any significant extent.

 

[ZEROMISSTACKLES]

You keep talking about the tables being turned but you haven’t explained what you mean by that.

We took Kata. You talked about players of Tongan ethnicity being NZers because they were born here and never been to Tonga. Well Kata was born in Tonga and by your logic he shouldve played for Tonga but he played for us and Im happy about that.