Montreal Screwjob

[Valheru]

Its a very interesting event really when one considers both sides.

Bret should have been willing to do business but he did have a contract that gave him reasonable creative control. Vince should have honoured his end of the deal regarding that contract but they were in trouble and couldny afford to have the belt held up in wcw nonsense.

Bret would have dropped the belt to just about anyone else in the company. If you guys can recall a few years later that austin would drop the belt to foley who drops it to hhh the next night on raw. There has always been rumours that either austin refused to job the title to hhh or even weirder still that jesse ventura (who was ref) didnt want to do the match if a heel won.

They have shown great flexibility to handle wrestlers egos and weird shit that gets thrown up. Its just odd to me that a solution like bret drops the belt to someone else who drops it to shawn wasnt just come up with instead of vince potentially breaking his contract with bret regarding creative control.

What would have been extremely interesting (had bret not assaulted vince) would have been the legal case if bret had sued. Like how would a court rule on reasonable creative control.
Edit

Just on the question of why the sharpshooter. I always just thought that it was a planned spot and they decided that it would just be done there.

They didnt want bret to see it coming and to just go into business for himself because he was likely to beat shawn in a shoot so it was a perfect spot to do it. Like shawn working heel goes for the faces submission hold. That is a perfectly normal spot in a match like that.

To be fair, there was no real option other than HBK to drop the belt to. Undertaker was kayfabe on the shelf due to Kane and Austin was due to have his first match back from near career ending neck surgery. Seriously, look at that November 1997 roster in the context of where everyone was in their respective careers, it was paper thin.

You are right with the Austin example, I guess the difference is he wasn't leaving the company and Foley at that point made a legit champion. On a side note, I have long suspected No Way Out 2001 was payback for that.

As for the 'why was it the sharpshooter spot", again you are right, that spot was booked in to the match with Bret's consent and it was meant to be reversed. You can actually see HBK give his foot to Bret so he could reverse it. This was obviously in an attempt to convince Bret he had no idea what was happening.

One thing I don't get about the whole situation is how Bret could be so surprised. He was warned by multiple people to kick out at 1 during that match. Sure, it would hurt at first especially given his relationship with Vince but it also made Bret the hottest commodity in wrestling in late 97 which was ruined by both WCW's ineptness and Bret's bitterness.

 

[Big Pete]

Vince Screwed Bret.

The way I see it, Bret was already doing Vince a huge solid by terminating his 20-year contract so Vince could pivot and go in a new direction. Vince had two months to figure out a suitable way to get the championship off of Bret and chose the one that would hurt Bret the most.

Not even losing the strap to the Brawler would have hurt Bret as much.

In the end, the fans won because it gave us this amazing angle that endures to this day and provided the basis for one of the best eras of Pro Wrestling. However, as a grievance between two people, it was Vince in the wrong.

As for Bret in WCW, he didn't stand a chance. As soon as they had him go one on one with Ric Flair with the microphone, you just knew they were going out of their way to expose him. If you watch those promos back, Flair always finds a way to make Bret look bad.

From there, it was a lot of confirmation bias and poor booking on WCW's part.

 

[Game_Breaker]

Vince Screwed Bret.

The way I see it, Bret was already doing Vince a huge solid by terminating his 20-year contract so Vince could pivot and go in a new direction. Vince had two months to figure out a suitable way to get the championship off of Bret and chose the one that would hurt Bret the most.

That's important
Bret never wanted to leave WWF, and originally turned down WCW and signed a 20 yr deal with Vince. It's not until WWF was in trouble financially that Vince asked him to reconsider the WCW deal.

and lets not forget that wrestlers not agreeing to how a match should end happens all the time and Bret had one month left on his WWF contract after the Montreal Survivor Series, so dropping the belt didn't have to happen right then and there.

Vince just got paranoid and screwed Bret. Gave us one of the greatest heel characters ever though

 

[Meth]

Cornette sums it up pretty well

Cornette raises a good point here. Hart refusing to lose in Canada is like an American refusing to lose in America...which would be ridiculous.

 

[God-King Dean]

Vince Screwed Bret.

The way I see it, Bret was already doing Vince a huge solid by terminating his 20-year contract so Vince could pivot and go in a new direction. Vince had two months to figure out a suitable way to get the championship off of Bret and chose the one that would hurt Bret the most.

Not even losing the strap to the Brawler would have hurt Bret as much.

In the end, the fans won because it gave us this amazing angle that endures to this day and provided the basis for one of the best eras of Pro Wrestling. However, as a grievance between two people, it was Vince in the wrong.

As for Bret in WCW, he didn't stand a chance. As soon as they had him go one on one with Ric Flair with the microphone, you just knew they were going out of their way to expose him. If you watch those promos back, Flair always finds a way to make Bret look bad.

From there, it was a lot of confirmation bias and poor booking on WCW's part.

I agree with every word of this. I just can't understand how anyone can think otherwise tbh.

 

[umina panther]

I agree with every word of this. I just can't understand how anyone can think otherwise tbh.

Go delete Facebook you fgt

 

[Iafeta]

Cornette raises a good point here. Hart refusing to lose in Canada is like an American refusing to lose in America...which would be ridiculous.

Except they wrestle every week in the US, and very rarely in Canada. It would have been a massive homecoming event v a regular show in yet another town. So Cornette I think has really missed the context badly.

It seems revisionist history is swinging back more in favour of VKM sadly. I wonder if said revisionist theorists would feel this way if WWFs attitude movement didn't catch light in the unforeseen manner it did. History tends to favour the winners rather than the vanquished. If Attitude doesn't take off, fact is the WWF were on the ropes awaiting the WCW knock out punch that never came.

There's no doubt whatsoever VKM screwed Bret. Hart was given the final 30 days creative control. The WWF breached that. If the WWF had foresight that Bret wouldn't lose in Canada, why not have him lose in America on Raw prior to Survivor Series? Hart had turned down an enormous contract from WCW to stay loyal, and then agreed to talk to them at the insistence of VKM because of the financial strain the WWF was under. I really can't see in anyway shape or form how any of this is on Bret.

 

[Valheru]

Of course Vince screwed Bret, no one is debating that point, he told him of a planned finish and went with a shoot instead. What we are debating is whether Bret is completely blameless in what happened to him.

It is incorrect to say that Bret was happy to drop the title elsewhere, that is only half the story. In addition to not wanting to drop the title in Canada, he refused to drop the title to Shawn (anywhere in the world). Yes, I get Shawn said he would never return the favour for mania 12 but at the end of the day Bret was out the door and Shawn was the only viable champion (Undertaker was kayfabe injured).

Had Bret of just maintained his professional integrity, a trait he claims he has more than any other performer in history, and agreed to drop the title to Shawn, I am sure Vince would have allowed him to do so outside of Canada.

 

[West coast dragon]

Bret screwed Bret l!!!

 

[Eelementary]

Of course Vince screwed Bret, no one is debating that point, he told him of a planned finish and went with a shoot instead. What we are debating is whether Bret is completely blameless in what happened to him.

It is incorrect to say that Bret was happy to drop the title elsewhere, that is only half the story. In addition to not wanting to drop the title in Canada, he refused to drop the title to Shawn (anywhere in the world). Yes, I get Shawn said he would never return the favour for mania 12 but at the end of the day Bret was out the door and Shawn was the only viable champion (Undertaker was kayfabe injured).

Had Bret of just maintained his professional integrity, a trait he claims he has more than any other performer in history, and agreed to drop the title to Shawn, I am sure Vince would have allowed him to do so outside of Canada.

This, imo.

 

[Lynoman]

People forget that Bret signed a multi year (10 I believe) contract worth $10 mil guaranteed that Vince reneged on and told Bret to seek his options elsewhere. Just food for thought.

 

[Lynoman]

Also to not, the only innocent person anywhere near the ring that worked of WWF in that match was Earl Hebner. He just did what he had to do to keep his job.

 

[Meth]

Anyone listening to 'Something to Wrestle With' with Bruce Pritchard? Seriously good stuff. Here's his take on The Montreal Screwjob

 

[Meth]

Seriously, a great podcast for Wrestling fans

 

[Eelementary]

Tbh, I find it hard to blame Vince in all this.

McMahon and Russo came up with several angles, and Hart knocked them all back.

Vince had already seen Alundra Blayze trash the company and the Women's Championship on Nitro, and so he was understandably nervous that it might happen again with the most prestigious title in the company - particularly given how difficult Hart was being when it came to the finish to the match.

It could have been done better, but McMahon did what he had to to keep the WWF alive.

The whole saga was a sad situation, but if I was in McMahon's shoes, I probably would have done the same thing.

I'm sure Vince never expected Luger, Rude, Nash, Hall, etc to jump ship the way they did; and while Hart was a company man and saw Vince as a father figure, who was to say that Hart (with his legendary ego and at times over-emotional responses) wouldn't screw Vince over in his sadness over being pushed out of the WWF?

 

[Iafeta]

Luger, Rude, Hall, Nash had all been in WCW previously. Luger and Rude were major stars there. I think Bret was extremely loyal to the WWF.

Luger et al were all on non guaranteed contracts. Bret had a guaranteed deal. He was doing Vince a favour agreeing to leave so early into the contract to help WWF out.

Bret had all the cards. Vince knew it so to counteract he screwed Bret.

 

[Eelementary]

Luger, Rude, Hall, Nash had all been in WCW previously. Luger and Rude were major stars there. I think Bret was extremely loyal to the WWF.

Luger et al were all on non guaranteed contracts. Bret had a guaranteed deal. He was doing Vince a favour agreeing to leave so early into the contract to help WWF out.

Bret had all the cards. Vince knew it so to counteract he screwed Bret.

Hart probably was extremely loyal to the WWF, but he was acting like a spoilt brat; Russo and McMahon came up with several options, and he shot them all down.

And Vince and his company had already been trashed on WCW previously - I don't think he was willing to take the risk that Bret wouldn't screw the WWF, because it would have been the death knell for the Federation.

I think both guys were to blame, but I just can't help but think that McMahon's actions were somewhat justified by the actions of Blayze and co., and because Hart was being so difficult.

If it had been my company, I probably would've done the same, tbh.

 

[Iafeta]

At the end of the day, one man breached the contract. It wasn't Bret. Bret had previously turned down a big WCW pay day due to his loyalty to Vince. What I don't get is, given Vince knew he was going to ask Bret to leave, why have the title on him in the first place?

As for Madusa, Vince did it first with Ric Flair mailing in the WCW Title, which they used.

Vince broke every tradition, every moral, and a major contractual obligation on a guy who wanted to stay with him, had turned down big money offers to do so, and was only leaving because Vince asked him to because he couldn't afford him. In every conceivable way McMahon is 1000% in the wrong.

 

[Eelementary]

That's all fine and well - but it doesn't address the fact that Hart was not working with the creative team to come to a solution so that he could drop the belt.

He was being difficult.

Was McMahon in the wrong? Yeah, I think so.

Was Hart blameless? Hell, no.

Could it have been worked out better? Ask Hart...

 

[Iafeta]

He had complete control of his character in the last 30 days.

The problems start with the contract Vince agreed to (length and terms), Vince trying to exit the contract early because they aren't doing well, and Vince breaking all manner of tradition, all agreed principles, breaking the terms of the contract to screw his way to getting what he wanted. I still cannot fathom how Vince who wanted Bret out would have left the title on Bret heading into asking him to leave. What a stupid move.

Bret offered to drop the title the night after the PPV. So he did try to work with creative.

There's no ifs or buts. Vince screwed Bret. Badly.