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New Zealand 2 will deal a massive blow to NZ rugby

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
7,147
Obviously, but that wasn't my point.

My point was that I wouldn't be surprised if it was already bigger than the NRL in under 30s (maybe even under 35s) in Australia, and that it'll outgrow the NRL's popularity in Australia in our lifetimes if it can maintain it's current rate of growth.

Firstly that's nonsense on face value, it absolutely has strong coverage in the mainstream, especially through digital platforms.

Secondly, the UFC uses a pay per view model, so you wouldn't expect it's ratings to be comparable to the other big sports whom use traditional broadcasting models like FTA and Pay TV. The UFC would pull numbers highly competitive with the other major sports around the world if it could use a FTA model instead of PPV, but it doesn't use that model for a whole host of commercial and cultural reasons.

To paraphrase Michael Jordan; males buy sneakers too.

If anything males, especially young males, are one of the least catered to demographics in the market, and society more generally, at the moment, so it's a good niche for a business to target because there's little to no competition.

But anyway, the UFC would have similar female interest to any of the other combat and contact sports, and their female participation and divisions are way more developed than almost any other sport on the planet.

When Ronda Rousey was at her peak she was the highest paid fighter in the UFC, and the UFC's female divisions have been profitable independent of subsidies from the male divisions in the past (IDK if that's still the case). Aside from female dominated sports with no male professional alternative, I don't know of a single league other than the UFC that could claim to have achieved anything similar to those two achievements in female sports.

I don't know about that. It's a niche that sits empty in the Australian domestic sports market.

I don't really have a strong opinion either way, but whether we like it or not there's demand for violence and brutality, and the NRL could play to that audience. The question then becomes whether that audience could be more profitable than a more general audience, and none of us here have that answer.

I can tell you this though, the NRLW has been so poorly set up that it'll almost certainly never be sustainable, let alone profitable, independent of subsidies from the NRL. There's also no future in converting touch and tag players to tackle en masse, nor is there a future in professional touch or tag. So the NRL will have to play into it's violence and brutality at least to some degree, and continue to appeal to a mainly male audience, if it is to survive into the future.

Unlikely that a fight sport will be more popular than a major sports league. A lot companies boost about tweets & retweets, but that metric really doesn't equate to anything.

Audience predominantly male is not a good thing. Lower end of scale says 75% male for ufc, but I've seen higher. Simple business logic suggests you only appealing to 50% of all people right away. Remember the great nswrl ad featuring Tina Turner & who was target of that?!

If NRL goes down ufc route it'll get less sponsorship, FTA TV time, participation..
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
33,728
Some ppl like it's violence, a lot more ppl don't. That's why it won't be overtaking any major sporting leagues anytime soon.
Interesting company value is pretty close in value to that of wwe - just for those who don't think it's niche
Dana White bought the company for 2 million dollars with the fertitia brothers and it’s been sold to Disney for billions

and it’s probably overtaken boxing ?

indeed I would say lots of rugby league fans are unhappy with how soft our game has become

I could show you some great shoulder charge videos and you would probably tell me how good they are

dana white knows what sells
 
Last edited:

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
33,728
Obviously, but that wasn't my point.

My point was that I wouldn't be surprised if it was already bigger than the NRL in under 30s (maybe even under 35s) in Australia, and that it'll outgrow the NRL's popularity in Australia in our lifetimes if it can maintain it's current rate of growth.

Firstly that's nonsense on face value, it absolutely has strong coverage in the mainstream, especially through digital platforms.

Secondly, the UFC uses a pay per view model, so you wouldn't expect it's ratings to be comparable to the other big sports whom use traditional broadcasting models like FTA and Pay TV. The UFC would pull numbers highly competitive with the other major sports around the world if it could use a FTA model instead of PPV, but it doesn't use that model for a whole host of commercial and cultural reasons.

To paraphrase Michael Jordan; males buy sneakers too.

If anything males, especially young males, are one of the least catered to demographics in the market, and society more generally, at the moment, so it's a good niche for a business to target because there's little to no competition.

But anyway, the UFC would have similar female interest to any of the other combat and contact sports, and their female participation and divisions are way more developed than almost any other sport on the planet.

When Ronda Rousey was at her peak she was the highest paid fighter in the UFC, and the UFC's female divisions have been profitable independent of subsidies from the male divisions in the past (IDK if that's still the case). Aside from female dominated sports with no male professional alternative, I don't know of a single league other than the UFC that could claim to have achieved anything similar to those two achievements in female sports.

I don't know about that. It's a niche that sits empty in the Australian domestic sports market.

I don't really have a strong opinion either way, but whether we like it or not there's demand for violence and brutality, and the NRL could play to that audience. The question then becomes whether that audience could be more profitable than a more general audience, and none of us here have that answer.

I can tell you this though, the NRLW has been so poorly set up that it'll almost certainly never be sustainable, let alone profitable, independent of subsidies from the NRL. There's also no future in converting touch and tag players to tackle en masse, nor is there a future in professional touch or tag. So the NRL will have to play into it's violence and brutality at least to some degree, and continue to appeal to a mainly male audience, if it is to survive into the future.
Touch / tag and nrlw are more to increase fan engagement esp female where we lag afl

it doesn’t need to make money directly it will recoup it via more fans
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
33,728
Some ppl like it's violence, a lot more ppl don't. That's why it won't be overtaking any major sporting leagues anytime soon.
Interesting company value is pretty close in value to that of wwe - just for those who don't think it's niche

The guys short but is strong af

he’s fighting in Perth to hold two belts at once

he credits rugby league for making so hard to beat
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
Don't be a bitch.
By most metrics ufc same size as wwe, which is below mainstream sports
I'm not being a bitch, you're just so disconnected from reality that there's no point in continuing the discussion.

You're unironically describing major multi-billion dollar businesses, with huge global audiences, as niche. That's insane.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
Unlikely that a fight sport will be more popular than a major sports league.
How are you defining major sports league?

Because the UFC is definitely more successful, and significantly more culturally relevant, than many leagues that I, and most other people, would call major leagues.

If you're referring exclusively the the American major leagues, we'll sure the UFC (and WWE for that matter) aren't as valuable as them, but that's setting an insanely high standard that almost no other leagues meet with the exception of the EPL.

I also don't see any reason why the UFC couldn't catch up to the Big Four given time and good management. MLS has been nipping at the NHL's ankles for the better part of a decade now, so it's not impossible.
A lot companies boost about tweets & retweets, but that metric really doesn't equate to anything.
What has twitter got to do with anything...
Audience predominantly male is not a good thing. Lower end of scale says 75% male for ufc, but I've seen higher. Simple business logic suggests you only appealing to 50% of all people right away. Remember the great nswrl ad featuring Tina Turner & who was target of that?!

If NRL goes down ufc route it'll get less sponsorship, FTA TV time, participation..
I guess we've discovered that business logic is another subject you haven't got a clue about.

One of the foundational laws of marketing is that if you try to appeal to everyone, you'll only succeed in appealing to nobody. So you have to find a niche that appeals to as many people as possible, and that is large enough to be profitable, and fill it.

The UFC has done that with their majority male audience, and are significantly bigger, more successful, and culturally relevant, than the NRL could ever dream of being in the global market.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
Touch / tag and nrlw are more to increase fan engagement esp female where we lag afl

it doesn’t need to make money directly it will recoup it via more fans
Those increases can be achieved without pissing money away on expensive loss making enterprises.

The NRLW is the perfect example. If it was set up to appeal to an audience that's interested in RL but isn't serviced by the NRL, i.e. it didn't place it's self into direct competition with the NRL and NRL teams, then it could have been built into the successful product in it's own right.

Sure, it never would have been as big as the Telstra Premiership, but a humble league in it's own right with reasonably strong ratings and an average attendance around 5k was achievable in the short-mid term, and the sky was the limit long term. As things are it'll always be an expensive glorified publicity stunt, with highly astroturfed support, that's firmly stuck in the NRL's shadow.

It's almost certainly going to suffer a big crash once the novelty effect wears off as well, just like the AFLW did.
It's attendance is already abysmal in real terms, the ratings bank on NRL fans whacking it on because they've got nothing better to do while they wait for NRL to start, and there's been no sincere attempt to build independent fanbases for the NRLW sides. All of those things are a recipe for disaster.

Hell, the NRL went so far as to intentionally undermine the Raiders attempts to build an identity for their NRLW side. So we can see what we're dealing with here.
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
33,728
Those increases can be achieved without pissing money away on expensive loss making enterprises.

The NRLW is the perfect example. If it was set up to appeal to an audience that's interested in RL but isn't serviced by the NRL, i.e. it didn't place it's self into direct competition with the NRL and NRL teams, then it could have been built into the successful product in it's own right.

Sure, it never would have been as big as the Telstra Premiership, but a humble league in it's own right with reasonably strong ratings and an average attendance around 5k was achievable in the short-mid term, and the sky was the limit long term. As things are it'll always be an expensive glorified publicity stunt, with highly astroturfed support, that's firmly stuck in the NRL's shadow.

It's almost certainly going to suffer a big crash once the novelty effect wears off as well, just like the AFLW did.
It's attendance is already abysmal in real terms, the ratings bank on NRL fans whacking it on because they've got nothing better to do while they wait for NRL to start, and there's been no sincere attempt to build independent fanbases for the NRLW sides. All of those things are a recipe for disaster.

Hell, the NRL went so far as to intentionally undermine the Raiders attempts to build an identity for their NRLW side. So we can see what we're dealing with here.
I don’t watch it but I think you’re being unnecessarily negative

it seems to be more sucesssful than the afl version

and the afl have been very successful using it to get government grants
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
I don’t watch it but I think you’re being unnecessarily negative

it seems to be more sucesssful than the afl version

and the afl have been very successful using it to get government grants
Nah, I'm just being honest with the situation.

The AFLW was similarly successful (arguably more) in it's early seasons, before it crashed. There is the odd outlier, but you see a similar pattern in a lot of other professional women's teams sports. They start off reasonably well, then the novelty effect wears off, the inefficacies in the product compared to the men's game and/or league become amplified, then they crash hard.

The WNBA is a great case study as it's been around for almost 30 years at this point, and that's the exact trajectory it's had, more or less. Start big, crash hard, survive at the whim of the administration of the men's league.

To avoid that you need to appeal to an audience that's willing to overlook those issues for whatever reason.

I've said it a million times before, but the first people I would have called if I was charged with creating the NRLW from scratch would have been the Bears and Newtown Jets, because they're a pair of clubs with proven demand that the NRL isn't meeting or can't meet.
 

Gobsmacked

Bench
Messages
3,127
Nah, I'm just being honest with the situation.

The AFLW was similarly successful (arguably more) in it's early seasons, before it crashed. There is the odd outlier, but you see a similar pattern in a lot of other professional women's teams sports. They start off reasonably well, then the novelty effect wears off, the inefficacies in the product compared to the men's game and/or league become amplified, then they crash hard.

The WNBA is a great case study as it's been around for almost 30 years at this point, and that's the exact trajectory it's had, more or less. Start big, crash hard, survive at the whim of the administration of the men's league.

To avoid that you need to appeal to an audience that's willing to overlook those issues for whatever reason.

I've said it a million times before, but the first people I would have called if I was charged with creating the NRLW from scratch would have been the Bears and Newtown Jets, because they're a pair of clubs with proven demand that the NRL isn't meeting or can't meet.
That's a good point about the bears and the Jets but obviously the NRL are going to mirror the mens eventually.
 

LeagueXIII

First Grade
Messages
5,969
If they moved


If they loved union so much then their game would be able to develop strong club competitions with large crowds and tv deals

there isn’t a single union club comp which satisfies this criteria

the game survives on internationals which underwrite the massive loses their club game makes

there is obviously a place in the market for a strong club comp which is what the nrl is and which rugby union (super rugby, top 14,
Gallagher premiership or France isn’t)
True, in my experience kiwis love the all blacks...however there is the potential that they can follow both codes particularly with the younger generation as they dont have that sporting bigotry the older ones have similar to what has happened in Melbourne.
 

Te Kaha

First Grade
Messages
5,998
True, in my experience kiwis love the all blacks...however there is the potential that they can follow both codes particularly with the younger generation as they dont have that sporting bigotry the older ones have similar to what has happened in Melbourne.

There is barely any "bigotry" here now, and while Rugby or league fans have a preference most follow both codes to some extent. He is basing his assumption that the country needs a "club comp" to be successful without understanding the sporting psych of NZ. And that a club comp will somehow change "allegiances" of fans.
Club comps thrive on "tribalism" which is an artificial construct. NZ as country have actual tribes so never understood the artificial tribalism in sport. In NZ clubs are a means to "train" players to play internationals. While the various franchises and clubs have support, the All Blacks and Kiwis are all that matters.
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
33,728
True, in my experience kiwis love the all blacks...however there is the potential that they can follow both codes particularly with the younger generation as they dont have that sporting bigotry the older ones have similar to what has happened in Melbourne.
Honestly not many kiwis hate rugby league

it’s how the all blacks try to play union by throwing it around

they loved the winfield cup before they finally got their own team

warriors have been pretty successful overall competing against the best
 

Gobsmacked

Bench
Messages
3,127
There is barely any "bigotry" here now, and while Rugby or league fans have a preference most follow both codes to some extent. He is basing his assumption that the country needs a "club comp" to be successful without understanding the sporting psych of NZ. And that a club comp will somehow change "allegiances" of fans.
Club comps thrive on "tribalism" which is an artificial construct. NZ as country have actual tribes so never understood the artificial tribalism in sport. In NZ clubs are a means to "train" players to play internationals. While the various franchises and clubs have support, the All Blacks and Kiwis are all that matters.
f**k you're a tool.
You don't know the psychology of all of New Zealand.
Stop pretending you're the voice of NZ.
You're some bent out of shape abusive tool on the f**king internet.

Nobody here likes you. Probably Nobody in NZ likes you.
I doubt you could have even 1 friend.

You don't know shit about the psychology of 1 person.

I doubt you've even seen the sun for 6 months... yet you claim to know everyone and what they want in NZ.


You can carry on all that you want but not 1 person on here can speak for a nation.
Especially not you.

Tool.
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
33,728
f**k you're a tool.
You don't know the psychology of all of New Zealand.
Stop pretending you're the voice of NZ.
You're some bent out of shape abusive tool on the f**king internet.

Nobody here likes you. Probably Nobody in NZ likes you.
I doubt you could have even 1 friend.

You don't know shit about the psychology of 1 person.

I doubt you've even seen the sun for 6 months... yet you claim to know everyone and what they want in NZ.


You can carry on all that you want but not 1 person on here can speak for a nation.
Especially not you.

Tool.
Let union ignore the club game it’s good for us

when the warriors were winning regularly their tv ratings were on par with the all blacks

kiwis love clubs games when their team is winning
 

Gobsmacked

Bench
Messages
3,127
Let union ignore the club game it’s good for us

when the warriors were winning regularly their tv ratings were on par with the all blacks

kiwis love clubs games when their team is winning
The fact is , Unions only Fully pro comp in the Southern hemisphere is on life support.
Another NZ league team DOUBLES the league at a time when Super Rugby is dying.
My title is wrong really, I should rename it to: NZ 2 will kill Super Rugby once and for all.
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
33,728
The fact is , Unions only Fully pro comp in the Southern hemisphere is on life support.
Another NZ league team DOUBLES the league at a time when Super Rugby is dying.
My title is wrong really, I should rename it to: NZ 2 will kill Super Rugby once and for all.
Union doesn’t care about the club game

like he said it’s all to prepare test players

nrl will just keep expanding its tentacles into nz whilst they ignore the club game
 

Te Kaha

First Grade
Messages
5,998
f**k you're a tool.
You don't know the psychology of all of New Zealand.
Stop pretending you're the voice of NZ.
You're some bent out of shape abusive tool on the f**king internet.

Nobody here likes you. Probably Nobody in NZ likes you.
I doubt you could have even 1 friend.

You don't know shit about the psychology of 1 person.

I doubt you've even seen the sun for 6 months... yet you claim to know everyone and what they want in NZ.


You can carry on all that you want but not 1 person on here can speak for a nation.
Especially not you.

Tool.

On holiday and getting all angry on the internet. Sucks to be you.

Funny how EVERY New Zealander posting in this thread agrees with me and none think you have any idea what you are talking about.

I never claimed to speak for the nation, but after being born here and living most of the last sixty plus years
here I do claim to know a shit load more about NZ and its people than you do. You know absolutely nothing of value.

Let union ignore the club game it’s good for us

when the warriors were winning regularly their tv ratings were on par with the all blacks

kiwis love clubs games when their team is winning

You really don't know what you are talking about. when the Warriors were winning only the GF appearance was "on Par" with the All Blacks tv ratings. At every other time its been "on par" with Super Rugby Team ratings.


The fact is , Unions only Fully pro comp in the Southern hemisphere is on life support.
Another NZ league team DOUBLES the league at a time when Super Rugby is dying.
My title is wrong really, I should rename it to: NZ 2 will kill Super Rugby once and for all.

You should rename the thread. But preface it with "I wish" because you have no basis in reality for your claim. Of course it's a moot point now, there wont be a second NZ side anytime soon. Perth gets the next one and there wont be any NZ money for a second team. You can rant, froth at the mouth and bark at the sky all you want, that wont change.
 

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