New Zealand 2 will deal a massive blow to NZ rugby

[Matiunz]

yeah, I remember watching on tv the kiwis playing the Aussies a couple of times there in the late 90’s and early 2000’s and only ever remembering the stadium having one main decent looking touchline grandstand with the rest of the ground being your standard uncovered seating.

that main grandstand design at north harbour kind of reminds me of the stadium in Huddersfield and how it could have been and looked much better with an identical grandstand on the opposite touchline side.

incidentially I think I’m right in believing that the kiwis have a pretty good record at the stadium against the Aussies with 2 wins, a draw and 1 loss.

They’ve kinda thrown everything at the Stadium but nothing has stuck unfortunately.
Blues/Chiefs(yes it was actually Chiefs territory for a couple of years) played there and left.
The Original Auckland A-League team and NZ soccer tried to base themselves there and left.
Tuatara baseball have come and gone
Think even North Harbour NPC team has explored other options

 

[Matiunz]

Is the pub the warriors own at Eden park a warriors themed pub or just your normal pub near a stadium?

Think at this stage it’s pretty much just an ordinary pub in Kingsland but think it was only bought like mid last year so they may have more plans for it. The tin foil hat brigade thought it was a sign a move to Eden park was imminent

 

[Matua]

What or who was it actually originally built for?

It was originally built for North Harbour Rugby but also as another ground in sprawling Auckland but as @Matiunz notes it quickly became a white elephant. Harbour were one of the premier teams back then and it was before Super Rugby pushed the NPC back to being more of a third tier comp.

 

[Hey you guys]

It was originally built for North Harbour Rugby but also as another ground in sprawling Auckland but as @Matiunz notes it quickly became a white elephant. Harbour were one of the premier teams back then and it was before Super Rugby pushed the NPC back to being more of a third tier comp.

With the way super rugby is going the NPC could again become New Zealand’s premier comp.

 

[Hey you guys]

They’ve kinda thrown everything at the Stadium but nothing has stuck unfortunately.
Blues/Chiefs(yes it was actually Chiefs territory for a couple of years) played there and left.
The Original Auckland A-League team and NZ soccer tried to base themselves there and left.
Tuatara baseball have come and gone
Think even North Harbour NPC team has explored other options

Sounds to be like the stadium was either built in the wrong part of Auckland/greater Auckland region or it’s isolated i.e. Poor transport infrastructure or both.

 

[jim_57]

Is the pub the warriors own at Eden park a warriors themed pub or just your normal pub near a stadium?

I believe it was going to be Warriors themed, not sure if that has happened yet.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Sounds to be like the stadium was either built in the wrong part of Auckland/greater Auckland region

it’s in a good spot to cater to the north shore. But it’s a lousy spot to cater to a team that serves an Auckland-wide catchment as it’s stuck right at one end of the city, and not the end with the most league fans.

or it’s isolated i.e. Poor transport infrastructure or both.

Not true on that count, it’s handy to the motorway and transport links, and next door to a suburban centre.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I just can’t believe that league is worse off In nz pre warriors. How do you measure what the warriors have achieved v what the old clubs achieved ?

How many world cups or finals did the kiwis win ?

Every local comp that got an nrl / arl / nswrl side has diminished by becoming a feeder league to the top level

Since the Warriors entered in 1995 the Kiwis have won:
2005 Tri Nations
2008 WC
2010 4 Nations
2014 4 Nations
2023 Pacific Cup

Before the Warriors entered:
Nothing

RL has never been bigger in NZ. As you point out, the BRL declined when the Broncos entered the NSWRL ditto Newcastle RL with the Knights and NZRL with the Warriors, but the game is healthier than ever in all three places.

 

[Vlad59]

Since the Warriors entered in 1995 the Kiwis have won:
2005 Tri Nations
2008 WC
2010 4 Nations
2014 4 Nations
2023 Pacific Cup

Before the Warriors entered:
Nothing

RL has never been bigger in NZ. As you point out, the BRL declined when the Broncos entered the NSWRL ditto Newcastle RL with the Knights and NZRL with the Warriors, but the game is healthier than ever in all three places.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_national_rugby_league_teameon

Before 2000 they won ‘Nothing’?

I hardly think so. As the link shows they won plenty.
Two other points:

1. It’s a bit hard to win a comp prior to 2000 that didn’t exist. Eg the Pacific Cup.
2. There is very little evidence I can find apart from the odd link here that the game there is healthier than ever from a participation viewpoint.

yes the warriors have been going well and crowds have been excellent but let’s not pretend the game has never been bigger unless you are only referring to the elite level.

 

[Canard]

Since the Warriors entered in 1995 the Kiwis have won:
2005 Tri Nations
2008 WC
2010 4 Nations
2014 4 Nations
2023 Pacific Cup

Before the Warriors entered:
Nothing

RL has never been bigger in NZ. As you point out, the BRL declined when the Broncos entered the NSWRL ditto Newcastle RL with the Knights and NZRL with the Warriors, but the game is healthier than ever in all three places.

I think your conflating on field results with the state of the game.

The two are unrelated.

 

[Wb1234]

Yeh let’s ignore the warriors crowds and ratings numbers, and the value of the nz tv deal

Nrl has overtaken super rugby in terms of total tv ratings

The old Auckland club comp would’ve got two man and a dog watching on tv

30 percent of all nrl players come from nz. What was it before 94 5 percent

Yeh let’s ignore the huge increase in the kiwi playing pool

 

[Canard]

Yeh let’s ignore the warriors crowds and ratings numbers, and the value of the nz tv deal

Nrl has overtaken super rugby in terms of total tv ratings

The old Auckland club comp would’ve got two man and a dog watching on tv

30 percent of all nrl players come from nz. What was it before 94 5 percent

Yeh let’s ignore the huge increase in the kiwi playing pool

Conflating unrelated issues.

Kiwis immigrating to Australia to work, isn't exclusive to rugby league.

The Warriors having two good seasons of crowds, isn't indicative of how the game is going at a lower level.

How is junior participation? How many registered players are there? What development programs exist?

 

[Matiunz]

Since the Warriors entered in 1995 the Kiwis have won:
2005 Tri Nations
2008 WC
2010 4 Nations
2014 4 Nations
2023 Pacific Cup

Before the Warriors entered:
Nothing

RL has never been bigger in NZ. As you point out, the BRL declined when the Broncos entered the NSWRL ditto Newcastle RL with the Knights and NZRL with the Warriors, but the game is healthier than ever in all three places.

Only one of those comps that existed pre Warriors season as the WC and Aus had dominated that since its existence except for a couple of GB wins early on. Kiwis did make the final pre Warriors.

 

[Matiunz]

Yeh let’s ignore the warriors crowds and ratings numbers, and the value of the nz tv deal

Nrl has overtaken super rugby in terms of total tv ratings

The old Auckland club comp would’ve got two man and a dog watching on tv

30 percent of all nrl players come from nz. What was it before 94 5 percent

Yeh let’s ignore the huge increase in the kiwi playing pool

It is an odd metric you keep bringing up saying a comp that’s playing when another one isn’t out rates it… of course it does also a comp that’s playing has more games has a higher cumulative rating? Of course it does but I’m not sure it makes the point you think it does.
For example you can interpret the stats to say the TV deal is poor compared to rugby considering the total amount of games played- both don’t really pant the picture you’d think.

The amount of NZ eligible players in NRL are not due to the health of the game in NZ, decent chunk are second generation + living in Australia with an NZ Parent, a large chunk of the rest move to Aus quite early for an opportunity, that’s not really an indication of the health of BZ game moreso a highlight in how good the Aus systems are.
If those players were picked up from NZ with the ability to be NRL players or close to the finished product then you could attribute the strength to NZ

 

[Vlad59]

It is an odd metric you keep bringing up saying a comp that’s playing when another one isn’t out rates it… of course it does also a comp that’s playing has more games has a higher cumulative rating? Of course it does but I’m not sure it makes the point you think it does.
For example you can interpret the stats to say the TV deal is poor compared to rugby considering the total amount of games played- both don’t really pant the picture you’d think.

The amount of NZ eligible players in NRL are not due to the health of the game in NZ, decent chunk are second generation + living in Australia with an NZ Parent, a large chunk of the rest move to Aus quite early for an opportunity, that’s not really an indication of the health of BZ game moreso a highlight in how good the Aus systems are.
If those players were picked up from NZ with the ability to be NRL players or close to the finished product then you could attribute the strength to NZ

It doesn’t matter in the least anything you write in response. You can’t debate a matter with a person who is tone deaf to anything that doesn’t fit his personal agenda. It’s a waste of time. The people with brains here manage an intelligent and sometimes challenging debate. I’ve seen nothing concrete to back anything he says about the health of the local game in NZ.

 

[Wb1234]

It is an odd metric you keep bringing up saying a comp that’s playing when another one isn’t out rates it… of course it does also a comp that’s playing has more games has a higher cumulative rating? Of course it does but I’m not sure it makes the point you think it does.
For example you can interpret the stats to say the TV deal is poor compared to rugby considering the total amount of games played- both don’t really pant the picture you’d think.

The amount of NZ eligible players in NRL are not due to the health of the game in NZ, decent chunk are second generation + living in Australia with an NZ Parent, a large chunk of the rest move to Aus quite early for an opportunity, that’s not really an indication of the health of BZ game moreso a highlight in how good the Aus systems are.
If those players were picked up from NZ with the ability to be NRL players or close to the finished product then you could attribute the strength to NZ

That’s the whole point of a longer nrl season

And it’s the first time the nrl has overtaken super rugby

When it comes to tv ratings nrl would now be the number one sport when all rep games are included for both rugby codes

Im talking about aggregate ratings over both seasons

Union has tests on when the nrl season continues

Then there’s the Npc

And yes the nrl tv deal is poor relative to union

Super rugby plus tests is worth 100 million whilst nrl including origin and tests is 32 million

 

[Wb1234]

On the players loads are poached from nz as kids and put into Aussie league schools

Lots of kiwi players talk about moving to Australia to be able to make it in rugby league

The rise in kiwi playing pool is one of the biggest arguments for the warriors (png will be the same and mz2)

 

[Canard]

It is an odd metric you keep bringing up saying a comp that’s playing when another one isn’t out rates it… of course it does also a comp that’s playing has more games has a higher cumulative rating? Of course it does but I’m not sure it makes the point you think it does.
For example you can interpret the stats to say the TV deal is poor compared to rugby considering the total amount of games played- both don’t really pant the picture you’d think.

The amount of NZ eligible players in NRL are not due to the health of the game in NZ, decent chunk are second generation + living in Australia with an NZ Parent, a large chunk of the rest move to Aus quite early for an opportunity, that’s not really an indication of the health of BZ game moreso a highlight in how good the Aus systems are.
If those players were picked up from NZ with the ability to be NRL players or close to the finished product then you could attribute the strength to NZ

I mean, this is a guy who believes there is big money in PNG TV rights

 

[Matua]

Look, there's no doubt that in 2023 and the first half of 2024 there has been an increase in NZers being "interested" in the Warriors, but that is different to the state of the game in NZ. We aren't in a peak time of player participation, we are having increases because the baseline got so low (even before Covid hit), but so is rugby from a bigger base.

I think this year is the test to see if the support holds. We don't have viewing figures from the second half of 2024 when it was clear the Warriors had resorted to their old selves. What we did see was gaps in sold out Mt Smart indicating that some fans were staying away despite pre purchasing tickets.

Some posters on this thread also seem to think that it's a zero sum game, and fans are leaving rugby for league, it's not, most of the bandwagon Warriors fans are also rugby fans.

But, domestic league in NZ has been stronger in the past, that is undeniable. Aussie league isn't successful due only to the NRL but due to the multitude of available opportunities for people of all standards to play the game on the weekend, and take their kids along etc. Not may of these exist in NZ.

As @Matiunz and I have mentioned multiple times the game is nearly dead in the area we're from and what is left is gang dominated. So while this thread celebrates the crowd in Napier for a Warriors game those fans don't really translate to the health of the game. The best way for someone from the area to wind up playing league is to do the Tohu Harris route of not being offered a rugby academy spot so then attend some Oz NRL team camps.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I honestly think the changes to the local game in NZ from the time of the Warriors admission were inevitable whether or the Warriors existed and were almost entirely the result of the changing landscape of professional rugby across both codes. The local scene as it was existed because of the nature of both rugby league and union at the time- rugby union was amateur, and rugby league in Australia was really only semi-professional, which left room for RL in NZ to exist on a semi-pro level because there wasn’t a massive incentive for players to leave chasing big money elsewhere. The explosion in professional money available in both the NRL and Union happened around the same time due to the Super League War and RU turning professional, and the semi pro NZ league scene simply couldn’t compete with it. At least the Warriors meant that the best part of one club’s worth remained in NZ, playing league.