New Zealand 2 will deal a massive blow to NZ rugby

[Wb1234]

W

 

[Matua]

Pre 95’ the majority of the kiwis side was based in England playing in the old 1st division.

That's not strictly true, it was more balanced between players based over there, Oz, and in NZ. But even then there are a few asterisks to that comment. The standard of the Winfield Cup and the old Brit comp was similar back then, unlike the huge gulf now. Added to that there were weird transfer rules (criteria(s) based fees and number of tests played) so it was often easier for NZ pros to go up to the NH who due to the strength of the pound were better able to meet the transfer fee costs. But during the early 90s there was already a shift towards more Winfield Cup players in the starting Kiwis.

 

[Wb1234]

Record highest ever crowds
Record highest ever tv ratings
Record number of kiwis in the nrl
Warriors highest revenue ever

But let’s just ignore that and focus on the small bit the Auckland rugby league run

And let’s not forget a second nz side is beckoning

 

[Vlad59]

Your game in better shape than ever seems to be limited to a narrow criteria, and most of that is focusing on the Warriors.

We've had a few eras of popularity, both before and since the Warriors arrival. This current one is not unprecedented. The in game crowds have been built on discounted tickets (I don't have a problem with that)

We've had NRL attached lower grade professional pathways for one year, but there has always been Warriors pathways in NZ, again, this is not unprecedented.

The desire of talented youth to be involved in NRL pathways was higher during the U20s years than now, due to being able to earn more money than in the rugby academies.

Women's rugby and league are both very popular at the moment.

What is the engagement with NZ fans of Tongan and Samoan descent meant to be? I genuinely don't know what you mean here. The Warriors have always had a Pasifika flavour and some of our great players pre and during the Warriors have been Pasifika.

Meanwhile, every club comp around the country has less teams now than they did pre Warriors and during the Warriors. As I noted (multiple times) above my province's club comp nearly collapsed completely. Meanwhile Wb is celebrating the crowd that attended a Warriors game there, does it really matter if those people are turning up to see a one off match when no one's playing the game in the region anymore? Do you think that is the game being in better shape than ever? This thread is about celebrating the death of rugby in NZ yet more teenage boys play that sport than total people play league.

The shop front in 2023/24 is looking good (I think the shine has worn off, but I guess we'll see later this year whether that is correct or not), but that is not all "league" in NZ.

Edit: Missed that @Matiunz had covered these already, well I guess now you can cover your eyes and block your ears to both our posts.

Trying to get through to these blokes is like talking to a door

 

[Matua]

Trying to get through to these blokes is like talking to a door

Haha, yup. Despite all the evidence from the past 20 years that support for the Warriors is very fickle and can go with a snap of the fingers they are convinced that the current hype can be maintained. It would be good if it can, but anyone who followed the Warriors between 2011 and 2022 (TBF since 1996) wont be confident.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Most of those things aren’t particularly new.
Popularity- The hype around the Warriors when they entered was fever pitch, they were everywhere poor results slowly but surely tapered that hype off.
Again Warriors were the hottest ticket in town and the media darlings in their 02 and 11 campaigns, consistency between seasons with the exception of most of the Cleary era killed the hype and made fans wary. Those thinking the last couple of years were the peak of Warriors popularity have short memories.
Again with short memories Warriors sold out games with a larger capacity a few times prior to last 2 seasons.

Professional pathways- the sporting landscape changed a few times over the course of existence but the Warriors were seen as THE professional pathway when they entered. Many players came from Auckland club level straight into NSWRL teams (even pre Warriors) no way this happens now, players would also come through bartercard cup not Warriors- not anymore. Under 20s was also a massive success - yep that went too but yes good to see teams at all levels finally coming in under the current pathways systems.

Desire for players- was there at the beginning but faded with the Warriors results, Warriors and NZ2 need to be the place the top NZers aspire to play for.

Second NRL franchise has been talked about since superleague- if the War continued ARL had spoken about a desire for a nz presence even if that meant going up against the Warriors, Wellington also campaigned hard when the Warriors were admitted and again when the Titans were admitted- that’s not new

Women’s game for any code didn’t really exist in a big way pre Warriors- first kiwiferns game was 95 but that would have come about wether the Warriors existed or not.

PIs have ALWAYS been very closely associated with league in NZ from the start of the Pacific migration this is not a new phenomenon.

Yes Warriors and kiwis have had some recent success but also have both had some tough times surrounding that success- the key is capitalising and maintaining that success otherwise this current period threatens to be yet another peak blip

Your game in better shape than ever seems to be limited to a narrow criteria, and most of that is focusing on the Warriors.

We've had a few eras of popularity, both before and since the Warriors arrival. This current one is not unprecedented. The in game crowds have been built on discounted tickets (I don't have a problem with that)

We've had NRL attached lower grade professional pathways for one year, but there has always been Warriors pathways in NZ, again, this is not unprecedented.

The desire of talented youth to be involved in NRL pathways was higher during the U20s years than now, due to being able to earn more money than in the rugby academies.

Women's rugby and league are both very popular at the moment.

What is the engagement with NZ fans of Tongan and Samoan descent meant to be? I genuinely don't know what you mean here. The Warriors have always had a Pasifika flavour and some of our great players pre and during the Warriors have been Pasifika.

Meanwhile, every club comp around the country has less teams now than they did pre Warriors and during the Warriors. As I noted (multiple times) above my province's club comp nearly collapsed completely. Meanwhile Wb is celebrating the crowd that attended a Warriors game there, does it really matter if those people are turning up to see a one off match when no one's playing the game in the region anymore? Do you think that is the game being in better shape than ever? This thread is about celebrating the death of rugby in NZ yet more teenage boys play that sport than total people play league.

The shop front in 2023/24 is looking good (I think the shine has worn off, but I guess we'll see later this year whether that is correct or not), but that is not all "league" in NZ.

Edit: Missed that @Matiunz had covered these already, well I guess now you can cover your eyes and block your ears to both our posts.

Ok you two... Let's pretend that RL was stronger in NZ in 1994, makes perfect sense

 

[SirPies&Beers]

2 kiwis that are probably speaking on general league being played in the country ie numbers clubs etc - nz footy was strong pre 95

1 non kiwi dude with spanish name - nah what would you 2 kiwis know about the state of footy in the country you live in…

 

[Wb1234]

2 kiwis that are probably speaking on general league being played in the country ie numbers clubs etc - nz footy was strong pre 95

1 non kiwi dude with spanish name - nah what would you 2 kiwis know about the state of footy in the country you live in…

One of them has been In Sydney for ages

 

[Wb1234]

Crowds for the Brisbane rugby league clubs collapsed after the broncos were admitted to the arl and have continued falling

Therefore rugby league in Brisbane is struggling

Did I do it right ?

 

[Vlad59]

2 kiwis that are probably speaking on general league being played in the country ie numbers clubs etc - nz footy was strong pre 95

1 non kiwi dude with spanish name - nah what would you 2 kiwis know about the state of footy in the country you live in…

Exactly. Does my head in.

 

[SirPies&Beers]

Crowds for the Brisbane rugby league clubs collapsed after the broncos were admitted to the arl and have continued falling

Therefore rugby league in Brisbane is struggling

Did I do it right ?

terrible comparison.

brl became q cup and q cup in its own right is a great competition with great teams and systems within most teams im guessing.

how did the nz comp go? blokes here are saying it’s weaker. So outside warriors and the system in place that filters through the warriors ie nsw cup jersey flegg sg ball Harold matts which is all part of nsw competition anyways how’s the actual comp within nz (their reserve comp) going?

If it’s weaker than it used to be then the game might be going gang busters in mainstream but it’s grass roots might not necessarily be in a competitive shape. How’s their amateur or semi pro game going? The two kiwi brothers here say it’s not good, I take their word for it. what does a colombian and a bloke over here know more? can use all the internet websites you want to but sometimes unless you see things with feet on ground it paints different picture.

nrl teams attract crowds, it’s what pro sports do or should do not sure why even bring it up.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

2 kiwis that are probably speaking on general league being played in the country ie numbers clubs etc - nz footy was strong pre 95

1 non kiwi dude with spanish name - nah what would you 2 kiwis know about the state of footy in the country you live in…

Stats don't lie mate. Does it really matter that a handful of people turn up to watch the local league? It was never going to be the way forward.

Warriors and NRL have brought more professionalism, money, hype, viewers, crowds, players and attention than the old local league would ever have

 

[Vlad59]

terrible comparison.

brl became q cup and q cup in its own right is a great competition with great teams and systems within most teams im guessing.

how did the nz comp go? blokes here are saying it’s weaker. So outside warriors and the system in place that filters through the warriors ie nsw cup jersey flegg sg ball Harold matts which is all part of nsw competition anyways how’s the actual comp within nz (their reserve comp) going?

If it’s weaker than it used to be then the game might be going gang busters in mainstream but it’s grass roots might not necessarily be in a competitive shape.

FMD stop making sense.

 

[Vlad59]

Stats don't lie mate. Does it really matter that a handful of people turn up to watch the local league? It was never going to be the way forward.

Warriors and NRL have brought more professionalism, money, hype, viewers, crowds, players and attention than the old local league would ever have

Just give it a rest. You don’t live there and as has been pointed out regularly the local game is struggling. Take the rose coloured glasses off mate. Please.

 

[SirPies&Beers]

Stats don't lie mate. Does it really matter that a handful of people turn up to watch the local league? It was never going to be the way forward.

Warriors and NRL have brought more professionalism, money, hype, viewers, crowds, players and attention than the old local league would ever have

cannot argue with any of that you’re right but if there’s actually less clubs within a system then it masks it. The pro team is flying, how are the amateur teams going?

 

[Vlad59]

cannot argue with any of that you’re right but if there’s actually less clubs within a system then it masks it. The pro team is flying, how are the amateur teams going?

Senior comps even in Auckland have shrunk. The local game has been in trouble for years. The recent success of the warriors masks the issues local footy has there. WB and Tit have been told this 1000 times but it doesn’t seem to matter. They hate union so league is taking over. Good luck engaging with them on this one.

 

[SirPies&Beers]

will say this though if vlandys is asking west Aussie gov to invest and fund their state pathways as part of the deal to give them an nrl team then he should also ask any nz bid to allocate funds to also invest into nz pathways

seeing South Island needs way more work and resources then I think the bid should find $5m a year minimum towards South Island rugby league grass roots. id suggest vlandys ask kiwi gov but we know they don’t care enough to make it happen anyways different situation to west Aussie gov

 

[Wb1234]

terrible comparison.

brl became q cup and q cup in its own right is a great competition with great teams and systems within most teams im guessing.

how did the nz comp go? blokes here are saying it’s weaker. So outside warriors and the system in place that filters through the warriors ie nsw cup jersey flegg sg ball Harold matts which is all part of nsw competition anyways how’s the actual comp within nz (their reserve comp) going?

If it’s weaker than it used to be then the game might be going gang busters in mainstream but it’s grass roots might not necessarily be in a competitive shape. How’s their amateur or semi pro game going? The two kiwi brothers here say it’s not good, I take their word for it. what does a colombian and a bloke over here know more? can use all the internet websites you want to but sometimes unless you see things with feet on ground it paints different picture.

nrl teams attract crowds, it’s what pro sports do or should do not sure why even bring it up.

The comp in nz declined like the brl declined

All the interest gravitates to the elite level

The exact same thing about with super rugby and the npc

And the issue of declining juniors is a bigger problem in rugby union

 

[Matua]

Ok you two... Let's pretend that RL was stronger in NZ in 1994, makes perfect sense

Huh? No one has specified a cut off time or date. The popularity of league ebbs and flows in NZ and has since before the Warriors and will continue even if we get a NZ2. It is strong at the moment from a pro game point of view, but not at a domestic level.

If you want to use 1994 as a date of significance then yes domestic league was much stronger in the area we're from. Hawkes Bay had a team in the Lion Red Cup national competition and the club game was in better health than now with more teams (not overrun with gangs) at senior and school level.

Stats don't lie mate. Does it really matter that a handful of people turn up to watch the local league? It was never going to be the way forward.

Warriors and NRL have brought more professionalism, money, hype, viewers, crowds, players and attention than the old local league would ever have

Yes. Where are the kids who get excited by the Warriors going to play if there's no local league? A kid in Oz can watch the NRL, go along to the local club with his old man, then join a junior team - that's not how it is in NZ at the moment.

It's not zero sum, it's not professional or domestic, for league to be successful in NZ you need both. The argument is not for a NZ league to replace the Warriors, but to fix the problems with the domestic game.

And the issue of declining juniors is a bigger problem in rugby union

The number of teenage males playing increased this year. Rugby and league have been losing players to other sports/interests for years - but the base is much bigger in rugby than league.

 

[Matua]

Crowds for the Brisbane rugby league clubs collapsed after the broncos were admitted to the arl and have continued falling

Therefore rugby league in Brisbane is struggling

Did I do it right ?

Brisbane has a thriving lower grade league scene, you're making up an argument yourself if you claim we're discussing crowd numbers solely when referring to the domestic game.