What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

NFT: Fahrenheit 9/11

The_Ben

Juniors
Messages
844
I always think you cannot critisize someone's position in life until you have lived in their shoes for a while. Just my two cents worth.
 

bluesbreaker

Bench
Messages
4,195
Terminator, you haven't actually contributed anything at all. I'm still waiting for _you_ to show me where Michael Moore has lied.
 

millersnose

Post Whore
Messages
65,223
bluesbreaker said:
Terminator, you haven't actually contributed anything at all. I'm still waiting for _you_ to show me where Michael Moore has lied.

does doctoring evidence count as lies?

BLOOMINGTON -- The Pantagraph has a message for Michael Moore, creator of the movie hit, "Fahrenheit 9/11":
If he wants to "edit" The Pantagraph, he should apply for a copy-editing job and not simply show made-over and "falsely represented" pages from the newspaper in his movie -- or he should at least ask for permission first.

In a moment early in the movie, newspaper headlines from around America that relate to the legally contested 2000 presidential election flash across the screen. One of them is purported to be from a Dec. 19, 2001, edition of The Pantagraph.

But a check of that day's newspaper revealed the large headline prominently flashed in the movie -- "Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election" -- never appeared in that edition.

Instead, the headline appeared in a Dec. 5, 2001, edition -- but not as a news headline. It was in much smaller type above a letter to the editor. Those headlines reflect only the opinions of the letter writer and are not considered "factual" news stories.

In the movie, The Pantagraph page, as shown, was not how a real page from the newspaper would have looked. Moore's version had a different typeface and a different headline size from what The Pantagraph uses. The newspaper's name, however, appears in the correct font.

The letter calls all of this a "misrepresentation of facts."

http://www.pantagraph.com/stories/073004/new_20040730034.shtml

the main point isnt direct lies which moore tries to avoid

it is clear deception

let me demonstrate

1. editing to change context and meaning

condie rices quote as used by moore:

“Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11.”


condie rices full quote in context

“Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York.”


this is still using rices words but editing them to mean something else

2. lots of unsupported information to imply a conclusion:

Saudi Arabian interests “have given” $1.4 billion to firms connected to the family and friends of President George W. Bush.


very unspecific and broad - what constitutes a "freind" of bush

3. implication by context

Fahrenheit shows Moore calling out to Delaware Republican Michael Castle, who is talking on a cell phone and waves Moore off. Castle is presented one of the Congressmen who would not sacrifice his children. What the film omits is that Rep. Castle does not have any children.

4. conclusion by context

his interviews with congress members suggest they are not willing to allow their children to go to war

but

Are Congressional children less likely to serve in Iraq than children from other families? Let’s use Moore’s methodology, and ignore members of extended families (such as nephews) and also ignore service anywhere expect Iraq (even though U.S. forces are currently fighting terrorists in many countries). And like Moore, let us also ignore the fact that some families (like Rep. Castle’s) have no children, or no children of military age.



We then see that of 535 Congressional families, there are two with a child who served in Iraq. How does this compare with American families in general? In the summer of 2003, U.S. troop levels in Iraq were raised to 145,000. If we factor in troop rotation, we could estimate that about 300,000 people have served in Iraq at some point. According to the Census Bureau, there were 104,705,000 households in the United States in 2000. (See Table 1 of the Census Report.) So the ratio of ordinary U.S. households to Iraqi service personnel is 104,705,000 to 300,000. This reduces to a ratio of 349:1.



In contrast the ratio of Congressional households to Iraqi service personnel is 535:2. This reduces to a ratio of 268:1.



Stated another way, a Congressional household is about 23 percent more likely than an ordinary household to be closely related to an Iraqi serviceman or servicewoman.
 

Alex28

Coach
Messages
11,938
i totally get what you are saying Millersnose, and agree somewhat with what you are saying. I think he does have some poor editing skills in that he edits things to suit his arguement - thats no different to media in general though.

while i acknowledge the flaws in his movies and arguements, i still believe he has a point - Bush has been a dodgy f***er for the last 4 years. what people have to do when they go and watch the film is go in there with an open mind and then go and have a look around for themselves and have their own opinion - not blindingly follow what everyone else is saying.

however i would be disappointed if he decides to nominate the film for Best Documentary for the Oscars as has been reported in the media recently. the film is hardly a documentary...
 

Terminator

First Grade
Messages
6,303
What Millersnose said.
He ommits important facts deliberately, and twists truths around to suit his own viewpoint.
LIke I already said hes just a spindoctor.
 

millersnose

Post Whore
Messages
65,223
Alex28 said:
i totally get what you are saying Millersnose, and agree somewhat with what you are saying.

agree somewhat?

is there something i have written that you disagree "somewhat" with?

I think he does have some poor editing skills


on the contrary these are clever editing skills

they are designed to mislead and reading this thread a fair few have fallen for it

in that he edits things to suit his arguement - thats no different to media in general though.

i disagree

mainstream media do have problems but nowhere near the blatant misrepresentations of moore

for example do you really think bush invaded afghanistan for a pipeline that doesnt exist or do you think he invaded to deal with al qeada who were operating openly in colusion with the taliban?

only very silly people would agree with moore


while i acknowledge the flaws in his movies and arguements, i still believe he has a point - Bush has been a dodgy f***er for the last 4 years.

bush is another argument this is about michael moore

and in any case deception is the only way to highlight bushes perceived dodgyness???


sounds pretty dodgy to me

what people have to do when they go and watch the film is go in there with an open mind and then go and have a look around for themselves and have their own opinion - not blindingly follow what everyone else is saying.


no

what people have to do is be aware they are dealing with propaganda here and question everything moore puts before them and educate yourself on the issues before swallowing any of this
 

Terminator

First Grade
Messages
6,303
Whats worrying is that people like Alex28 and BluesBreaker except everything Moore says without even questioning it, its like they want to believe no matter what, their truly brainwashed, too much e and pot probably, their brains have sadly become like mush.
 

Alex28

Coach
Messages
11,938
terminator...i dont except everything Moore says...nor do i accept everything Moore says. did you not read my last post in this topic?

if you want to fight with the big boys mate, have the tools (in this case I would suggest a dictionary) to do so.

also you have failed to answer Bluesbreaker's question. Personally i think you read something on the internet and go with it because it is cool to do so. you have added absolutely nothing to this discussion. i dont believe you have seen the movie, nor do i believe you have read 59 lies. you have seen a few people say 'Moore is a liar' and just gone with it, adding such gems as 'he is fat' and 'Alex28 takes too much e and pot'.

you are just an utter f***wit, and a waste of my time.


Millerstone - this topic is about Fahrenheit 911. The movie is about...you guessed it - Bush! How can you say this isn't relevant? if this was in the Moore topic i'd agree with you...but it isn't.

The way he presents his case is poor - his editing isn't great in that time and time again he leaves himself wide open for criticism. But his critics tend to miss the point - it's not how he presents it, it is the bigger issue - something wrong is happening in the States and Iraq.

Your cutting and pasteing of stuff as evidence against Moore was appreciated though - Terminator wasn't capable of doing it. The cutting short of quotes happens every day in the media - every day. It's funny that when CNN do it (where all 5 Australian Television networks use as an international media source), it is fine. But when Moore does it, it just isn't on.

By all means bag Moore all you want, but if you are going to suggest that the Media doesn't do it to the same extent - you lose some credibility. I dont believe Bush went to war for an Oil pipeline - the pipeline can be built. I'd suggest it is for the millions of gallons of oil still underground...
 

Terminator

First Grade
Messages
6,303
Alex you dumb maggot, Ive always thought Moore was nothing but a cheap sensationalist, even before he profited off the Columbine massacre, you reckon I'm only against him because people think its cool to go against Moore, if anything it seems more popular to agree with the twit.
 

Alex28

Coach
Messages
11,938
again...the name calling and adding nothing...had you even heard of him before Bowling For Columbine? as for Moore profitting off Columbine...the guy was virtually unknown in the states before he made Columbine - The Awful Truth did not get major airplay in the States (was made by a Canadian network I believe)...he had no way of knowing he was going to make millions out of that movie.

so...what you are saying is nobody should do anything that involves a tragedy because they would be 'profiteering' out of it. i'd get rid of the television, radio and internet right now if i was you...

(actually if you got rid of the internet it would increase the intelligence level of this topic immediately)
 

Alex28

Coach
Messages
11,938
mate - you were the one who started b*tching about being called names. i was highlighting the flaws in your debating technique and how you look clueless in discussing this topic. i haven't once complained about the name calling - after all this is only the internet and you have no idea who you are calling a "dumb maggot", a "moron" or a "e and pot user".

like i said termi - step up and discuss this rationally if you are capable of doing so. if you aren't, stay out of it and save yourself from looking incredibly dumb.
 

Terminator

First Grade
Messages
6,303
Harhar whose topic is this anyway, and what flaws are you highlighting in my debating technique, and werent you the one who got huffed up first about name calling, go back 2 of your posts from here and its right their at the start dumbarse.
You can call me names till your blue in the face it doesnt worry me Ill just throw them back.
 

millersnose

Post Whore
Messages
65,223
Alex28 said:
Millerstone - this topic is about Fahrenheit 911. The movie is about...you guessed it - Bush! How can you say this isn't relevant? if this was in the Moore topic i'd agree with you...but it isn't.

the topic at hand was farenheit and wether or not it is factually correct

hey but i am willing to stroll down a tangent

The way he presents his case is poor - his editing isn't great in that time and time again he leaves himself wide open for criticism.

his editing is direct attempts to mislead - that is why he is criticised

But his critics tend to miss the point - it's not how he presents it, it is the bigger issue - something wrong is happening in the States and Iraq.

so deceit is the way to highlight problems???

Your cutting and pasteing of stuff as evidence against Moore was appreciated though - Terminator wasn't capable of doing it. The cutting short of quotes happens every day in the media - every day. It's funny that when CNN do it (where all 5 Australian Television networks use as an international media source), it is fine. But when Moore does it, it just isn't on.

fine


post examples

By all means bag Moore all you want, but if you are going to suggest that the Media doesn't do it to the same extent - you lose some credibility.

you have now made a claim

back it

here is your challenge

pick a peice by a mainstream news organisation

now as over 60 deceits have now been tallied in F9/11 i will give you only 10 per cent of the same task

now if you can find 6 deceits in a mainstream news peice - being only one tenth of moores

i will concede the point

if you cant you concede

fair?




I dont believe Bush went to war for an Oil pipeline - the pipeline can be built. I'd suggest it is for the millions of gallons of oil still underground...

except for the fact there is no oil under ground in afghanistan

there was however terrorist training camps and a place where terrorists were openly operating out of

now i ask you straight

did US invade afghanistan to

A. capture a pipeline that doesnt exist as suggested by moore

or

B. eliminate the biggest terrorist base on the planet in response to thousands of americans being killed by al qeada
 

Latest posts

Top