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Non Footy Chat Thread

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You speak as if the concept of marriage equality and climate change are extremist views. In actual fact they are mainstream and supported by the overwhelming majority of the population.

That places you in the minority, hence why scaremongering and cheap shots are all you have left.

All that shows is that you and your ilk have, as I stated earlier, guilted the population into bowing to your agenda by using deliberately false terms to hijack morality.

***

Also, all those polls do is prove my point regarding a conscience vote. There's no guarantee that it will pass and if it doesn't then that means that the conscience vote did not reflect the will of the people.

So, it should be an election issue on which every candidate puts forward their view so the population can vote accordingly and the subsequent conscience vote in the next term of parliament (which will be a lot cheaper than a plebiscite) will reflect the will of the people and not just the politicians.

I only scanned the previous posts but...why is everyone talking about a referendum?
 

ash411

Bench
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3,411
All that shows is that you and your ilk have, as I stated earlier, guilted the population into bowing to your agenda by using deliberately false terms to hijack morality.

***

Also, all those polls do is prove my point regarding a conscience vote. There's no guarantee that it will pass and if it doesn't then that means that the conscience vote did not reflect the will of the people.

So, it should be an election issue on which every candidate puts forward their view so the population can vote accordingly and the subsequent conscience vote in the next term of parliament (which will be a lot cheaper than a plebiscite) will reflect the will of the people and not just the politicians.

I only scanned the previous posts but...why is everyone talking about a referendum?

Because Conscience votes aren't what they would like us to believe, the opposition votes their conscience, and the current govt votes according to the party's (PM's) views on the issue.

A referendum would truly let the public decide. We as a nation could decide whether or not we want marriage equality (or same sex marriage, if you prefer) in Australia.

I take it you're against same sex marriage? Can I ask why?
 
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11,677
I'm not against same-sex marriage. I've already stated that previously in this thread. I am, however, FOR proper process.

***

OK, so you're talking about referendum's incorrectly, which was why I asked. Referendums change the Constitution. You guys are actually talking about plebiscites, which I am all for.

However, they cost a shit load of money to run so if we went for a conscience vote after the election instead then I'd be OK with that.

***

You're wrong about the conscience vote, though. Plybersek recently tried to argue for Labor to have a binding Yes vote (which makes your post above wrong) and the current government sticks to party policy (not the PM's policy, as it has been standing this way even through previous PMs) but will allow a conscience vote soon enough.
 

ash411

Bench
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3,411
I'm not against same-sex marriage. I've already stated that previously in this thread. I am, however, FOR proper process.

***

OK, so you're talking about referendum's incorrectly, which was why I asked. Referendums change the Constitution. You guys are actually talking about plebiscites, which I am all for.

However, they cost a shit load of money to run so if we went for a conscience vote after the election instead then I'd be OK with that.

***

You're wrong about the conscience vote, though. Plybersek recently tried to argue for Labor to have a binding Yes vote (which makes your post above wrong) and the current government sticks to party policy (not the PM's policy, as it has been standing this way even through previous PMs) but will allow a conscience vote soon enough.

The thing is, same sex marriage was a platform at the last election, however, I don't believe it is a big enough issue to base a federal election on by itself. what if you are for same sex marriage but against another issue (I don't care enough about politics to know who is for what). ok, lets say you are for same sex marriage but you are against funding cuts for heath. Your local PM is running on a platform of pro-same sex marriage and pro-funding cuts. You really want same sex marriage to be allowed, but you don't want funding to be cut, so what do you do? Now you have to choose, that sucks.

I have also heard that (and I might be wrong, but I saw this on tv, so take it as hearsay) that Abbot leaned on his PM's last vote and said if they don't vote along party policy, their standing in the party would be in jeopardy, not in those exact words, but that was the gist of it.

This is my problem with conscience votes, each PM is supposed to vote based on what they themselves believe, but it doesn't work out that way, cause their party leans on them to two the line. It's be great if they actually did vote the way they felt, but I doubt its happens as purely as it is supposed to.

A conscience vote has a better chance of passing if Tony Abbott was to lose the next election, that's for sure, cause anybody who denies that he is influencing his parties views is kidding themselves. He's made the liberal party a lot more conservative than it has been in years.
 

Gronk

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Marriage equality is not high enough on the national scale to bother about referendums or plebiscites (advisory referendum). Governments in the past have been able to effect change based on the will of the people without having to annex such a decision to a federal election. Refer abortion or euthanasia.

Just get it done.
 

Twizzle

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MV5BMTk1NjE0ODIwN15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMjA4NzUyMQ@@._V1_SY317_CR5,0,214,317_AL_.jpg
 

Eelogical

Referee
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23,652
You know, some of these topics need to be taken to a debate room. That's the place where you can grapple tackle, shoulder charge and head high without impunity. My head hurts like a bitch after reading all that same sex marriage hoo haa.
 
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The thing is, same sex marriage was a platform at the last election, however, I don't believe it is a big enough issue to base a federal election on by itself. what if you are for same sex marriage but against another issue (I don't care enough about politics to know who is for what). ok, lets say you are for same sex marriage but you are against funding cuts for heath. Your local PM is running on a platform of pro-same sex marriage and pro-funding cuts. You really want same sex marriage to be allowed, but you don't want funding to be cut, so what do you do? Now you have to choose, that sucks.

That's politics. I doubt anyone but billboards agree with every single policy that a party puts forward.

So, at an election, you weigh everything up and go with who suits you best overall, based on your priorities and how they are reflected in the parties/candidates.

Also, you're wrong about the last election. It was not an issue. I doubt there's anyone who could accurately name how each MP would vote.

It is an issue now, however, and so everyone should be upfront about it at the next election so it can be taken into consideration when people are voting. Then, have your conscience vote.

I have also heard that (and I might be wrong, but I saw this on tv, so take it as hearsay) that Abbot leaned on his PM's last vote and said if they don't vote along party policy, their standing in the party would be in jeopardy, not in those exact words, but that was the gist of it.

Incorrect. However, there is a policy that if frontbenchers cross the floor they are expelled.

This is my problem with conscience votes, each PM is supposed to vote based on what they themselves believe, but it doesn't work out that way, cause their party leans on them to two the line. It's be great if they actually did vote the way they felt, but I doubt its happens as purely as it is supposed to.

I really doubt anything in life, let alone politics, happens as it is supposed to.

A conscience vote has a better chance of passing if Tony Abbott was to lose the next election, that's for sure, cause anybody who denies that he is influencing his parties views is kidding themselves. He's made the liberal party a lot more conservative than it has been in years.

He's not influencing his party's views. He is holding the longstanding Liberal platform on same-sex marriage and frontbenchers not crossing the floor.

If he is seeking to have any influence it is simply not letting any private members' bills on the issue get traction. Sure, you might say this is for ideological reasons but one thing is true is that it is obviously for political reasons, as well. They don't want it to dominate the news cycle as it doesn't play to their strengths. That may not be the nicest thing in the world but it is totally different from Abbott forcing people into a binding No vote because of his personal views on the subject.

***

There WILL be a conscience vote on the subject. This is a foregone conclusion. My point is simply that it should wait until after the next election, when candidates can state their conscience and be judged by the Australian people accordingly, thus giving us our best chance to express our will outside of a plebiscite (which is a significantly more expensive way to do it).
 

ash411

Bench
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3,411
There WILL be a conscience vote on the subject. This is a foregone conclusion. My point is simply that it should wait until after the next election, when candidates can state their conscience and be judged by the Australian people accordingly, thus giving us our best chance to express our will outside of a plebiscite (which is a significantly more expensive way to do it).

... Unless their conscience is different from their party, then they will vote in opposition to their conscience, under threat of losing their position in the party.

They really shouldn't call it a conscience vote if it isn't. and the fact that it's accepted that an MP can be strong-armed into voting against their conscience is appalling, and should be illegal.

Incorrect. However, there is a policy that if frontbenchers cross the floor they are expelled.

Interesting that you said I was wrong, then re-enforced my point directly after. What bench they sit on makes no difference, they are told if they vote the way they feel (which their constituents elected them in for), they will be expelled.
 

Gronk

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You're wrong, ash. Sorry. People will cross the floor freely in the conscience vote. It will happen.

Meanwhile you have calls from senior cabinet ministers (Eric Abetz etc) stating that those in the front bench who take an opposing view to the PM should resign. Free vote ya think ?
 

ash411

Bench
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3,411
Kidney stones f**king hurt. Its like there has been a mass murder in my dunny bowl.

A mate of mine had them recently, one of the larger stones got stuck, and he had to get a stent put in for 8 weeks...

Hopefully yours goes better..
 

Gronk

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My mate is a Dr and he told me that kidney stones were a symptom of dehydration.

He said that if your pee is yellow at any time other than your morning wiz, then Houston you gotta problem. Up the water intake to avoid pissing razor blades down the track.
 

eels81236

Bench
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3,643
My mate is a Dr and he told me that kidney stones were a symptom of dehydration.

He said that if your pee is yellow at any time other than your morning wiz, then Houston you gotta problem. Up the water intake to avoid pissing razor blades down the track.

Not that simple for me. I'm a calcium producer. I've only 2 saliva glands left due to stones. Thyroid is gone 6 years now for same reasons as mick Vella and looks like the parathyroid will have to go now too.

Good thing is I'm getting lighter.
 

Gronk

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78,311
BREAKING: PM announces $1,718,439 LNP donation from mining industry in 2013-14 was not a conflict of interest when considering Liverpool Plains coal mine.

;-)
 
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