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[Poupou Escobar]

Recognising that not everyone will answer a subjective question the same way is sitting on the fence now? I know lucablight is that much of a simpleton but you are just being dishonest bart.

 

[lucablight]

Well I can answer it honestly. Whether it's judged a failure depends on who you ask. Even if winning a premiership is the sole measure of success for a team in a given season (one winner and 15 losers) it absolutely isn't the measure of success for a coach, because they don't all have access to the same resourcing. It's also not the measure of success for a player because it's a team game.

I expect dopes to answer differently, hence my answer to your original question.

I would say success or failure is all relative. For a club like the Cowboys that finished 15th last season and have exceeded all expectations even if they bow out tomorrow then most people would say their season has been a success. For a club like ours where we haven’t been in a grand final for 13 years and have been continually knocked out in the second week despite being a “contender” for the past few seasons to not take advantage tomorrow would be a huge missed opportunity. If Penrith had not won the premiership last season then their season would have been considered an huge failure despite their coaches win record. A lot of it comes down to expectation and how you handle it. I think Brad Arthur has had enough time now to get this team to a grand final and this is the best chance he’s ever had. I would be very disappointed if he didn’t.
Ironically you put way more weight into premiership winning players than I do. You’ve always rated Townsend because he’s a premiership winning half where’s I think he’s a solid player at best.

 

[Gary Gutful]

I want to see us rip Cowboy dicks off and shove them down Cowboy throats. Anything other than that is a failure. I say that as someone who has never achieved anything in my own life, but thats irrelevant.

 

[the phantom menace]

Recognising that not everyone will answer a subjective question the same way is sitting on the fence now? I know lucablight is that much of a simpleton but you are just being dishonest

Says the person who, in finally answering honestly, admitted their original answer to the question posed had been dishonest...

 

[the phantom menace]

I want to see us rip Cowboy dicks off and shove them down Cowboy throats. Anything other than that is a failure. I say that as someone who has never achieved anything in my own life, but thats irrelevant.

I think there's a movie just like that showing on SBS soon?

 

[Poupou Escobar]

I think Brad Arthur has had enough time now to get this team to a grand final and this is the best chance he’s ever had. I would be very disappointed if he didn’t.

I'm sure everyone would be disappointed, including me. That doesn't mean I think he is 100% responsible for what happens tomorrow though. If we win I won't be praising the coach. Why then would I blame him if we lose? It's just one game ffs.

 

[lucablight]

I'm sure everyone would be disappointed, including me. That doesn't mean I think he is 100% responsible for what happens tomorrow though. If we win I won't be praising the coach. Why then would I blame him if we lose? It's just one game ffs.

Some games are weighted more heavily than others. Finals games certainly would be.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Ironically you put way more weight into premiership winning players than I do. You’ve always rated Townsend because he’s a premiership winning half where’s I think he’s a solid player at best.

Well actually my point is that players don't need to be great to win premierships. I actually don't think coaches need to be great either. A lot of them have just had some luck.

But players with big game experience (but middling talent) are extremely valuable in big games. This is one reason I talk about premiership winners. The other reason is, as I said above, because you can without doubt state that they are good enough to win a premiership.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Some games are weighted more heavily than others. Finals games certainly would be.

But what does that even mean? Are coaches more in control of the result at finals time?

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Says the person who, in finally answering honestly, admitted their original answer to the question posed had been dishonest...

How is "It depends" dishonest? It just means I don't want to play stupid games.

 

[lucablight]

But what does that even mean? Are coaches more in control of the result at finals time?

No but they are the ones responsible for ensuring the team performs during this time. Do you think a coach who finishes 8th with a premiership is more successful or the one who finishes with a minor premiership but runners up?

 

[Poupou Escobar]

No but they are the ones responsible for ensuring the team performs during this time.

I disagree. I think that's on the team leaders. Whose fault was it that Melbourne lost a grand final 40-0?

Do you think a coach who finishes 8th with a premiership is more successful or the one who finishes with a minor premiership but runners up?

No coach has finished eighth and won a premiership. But I will say that when it happens the merkin will have had a lot of luck. Likely had some bad luck too early in the year (injuries?) and came home with a wet sail. As always, it depends.

 

[the phantom menace]

As always, it depends.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Actually since we're throwing around leading questions, here's a good one for you. Who is the better coach?

Name	Career wins	Career win rate	Premierships
Maguire	114	48.9%	1
Smith	305	50.7%	0

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

I reckon it could be either depending on the circumstances. Smith could improve a poor team and get them playing regular finals footy and strengthen the club overall. f**ken is too intense to do that and would have the opposite result because he's too demanding. But he could get a good team to improve enough to win a title, then have to be f**ked off.

 

[lucablight]

Actually since we're throwing around leading questions, here's a good one for you. Who is the better coach?

Name	Career wins	Career win rate	Premierships
Maguire	114	48.9%	1
Smith	305	50.7%	0

Maguire because he won more premierships whilst Smith failed during finals time repeatedly. I have fond memories of Smith though.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

I think if you can get to a grand final you can win one. Smith coached in how many grand finals? Four? Suppose you flip a coin four times and it comes up tails every time. How likely is it that the coin is faulty?

On the other hand, Maguire's only grand final win was against the team that finished 7th. Surely you can admit he had some luck.

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

I'm not sure the coin flip analogy is apt because a coach does have an effect on the result. Maybe he stressed out too much and stressed his players out too.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

The analogy is apt because we don't know how much effect coaches have on the result. The point is, if all is equal on game day you can still lose four grand finals from four attempts. The four losses by themselves (which is all the grand final information we have about Brian Smith) tell us nothing statistically significant about him. I would say in three of those grand finals his opponent had a superior playing roster. I actually think the Knights had a better squad than ours in 2001 as well, but Smith got them to overachieve over the larger sample of games (i.e. all games minus the grand final).

 

[Bandwagon]

Nice google search but if you look at the 2022 Samoa squad you'll realise how pointless it was.

Rankings are at least systemised in some way shape or form on previous performance, what do you propose, hey look at their latest squad, it's pretty strong let's make them tier one?

Here's another google ...

Samoa - Results - RLP

www.rugbyleagueproject.org

Two wins and a draw in their last ten games, Vs. Tonga's results..

https://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/teams/tonga/results.html

Six wins from their last ten, including a win over NZ and a 2 Point semi final loss to the Poms.

Even with that what you've pretty much got is one World cup where they ( Tonga ) had a pretty good campaign, which is why I'd say you'd need more time to elevate them to tier one, a good performance in this world cup, would show some consistency, and backing it up in the years leading into the next one would display that's a bit more permanent than having a good side based around one generation of players.