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NRL and AFL tackle PM over plan to curb the use of poker machines

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
From what I understand, the real impact on clubs is a result of two elements -

1. The already existing very high state based tax rate on ALL pokies gambling and
2. This new cap which will prevent big spending on pokies (eg more than $1200 per hour)

The combination of these two things will make pokies not profitable for clubs. No money from small or large bets. But the tax rate on pokies is not concistent Australia wide. NSW clubs especially are taxed at a higher rate than other states, which makes the NRL's postition understandable.

You can't get rid of pokies all together, as has been pointed out, people will just find other ways to gamble their money. Nor can you target pokies as the sole source of gambling vice - thats stupid and will only help companies like TAB.

There must be a compromise solution to this problem - what is the government outcome they want to achieve with pokies? If its to reduce the impact on problem gamblers, there is no need for high tax rates on $1 bets. Yet the state governments won't stop the tax because they want the revenue.

I think there needs to be better national legislation in regards to ALL gambling, that involves state and federal government, clubs, sports bodies, casinos, et cetera. I think our fanatical South Australian evangelical is squeezing the PM hard on this issue, because she does not want to be seen as killing clubs while recording record low prefered leader figures.

Oh and on State revenue rasing, I read somewhere the gov are thinking of scrapping all stamp duty on property and raising the GST to 12.5%. This is actually a good idea, states need more revenue and have come up with all sorts of stupid little taxes to get it.

A good compromise would be voluntary pre-commitment.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
60 mins, $20 per minute. Not sure what the min bet is on these machines as never been on a pokie but I am guessing it must be $5 plus which would be a spin every 10-15secs. Probably do able but you really must be out of your head to flush your cash down the drain in this way!

It was very interesting listening to Vlad fire up about it yesterday. You have to credit their media management, they somehow managed to oppose it yet make it sound like it was all the NRL and gaming peoples doing that there was opposition to the bill.

You obviously know very little about pokies if you don't know what the minimum bet is. The answer is 1c by the way. I usually bet 5c/10c a game.

You have never played a poker machine yet you are able to tell us how evil you think they are?
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
You can bet as little as 1 cent per roll on some machines if you want to. Most allow as low as 20 cent bets. I don't think I've seen a poker machine that has a minimum bet below 1 dollar. As long as you play them responsibly 20 dollars can last an hour.

I don't know where you go but you should try my local club (Mounties). They have about 600 machines, more than half would be 1c min. There are very few that are $1 min because most people don't play them. 20c is the most common bet from what I have noticed.
 
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Dogs Of War

Coach
Messages
12,721
I don't know where you go but you should try my local club (Mounties). They have about 600 machines, more than half would be 1c min. There are very few that are $1 min because most people don't play them. 20c is the most common bet from what I have noticed.

I think he meant maximum bet below $1. The common thing that most people who complain about proposal this overlook, is that 90% of people will NOT require a card to play, because they don't bet over $1 a spin. The cards are only designed for these machines. It's just clubs want people to play these cause they can lose the most money fastest.
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
I think he meant maximum bet below $1. The common thing that most people who complain about proposal this overlook, is that 90% of people will NOT require a card to play, because they don't bet over $1 a spin. The cards are only designed for these machines. It's just clubs want people to play these cause they can lose the most money fastest.


If I never play these, but on a whim I decide to whack in $1000 for fun and play it fast, would I need to obtain a licence?
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
Already pay out 93%. I don't think the clubs can afford much more.


Do you think that means that 93% of what is put in is returned to the punter?

Or is your payout on an even money proposition set at .93?


The take is too high regardless & the things eat notes too fast regardless.


How about winding back the clock - no licence to punt required but all machines will be vegas-style. Reels with a mechanical handle and credits are not retained. Coins only.

It is pretty hard to go broke if you have to feed in 20c pieces to have your fun.
 

Dogs Of War

Coach
Messages
12,721
Do you think that means that 93% of what is put in is returned to the punter?

Or is your payout on an even money proposition set at .93?


The take is too high regardless & the things eat notes too fast regardless.


How about winding back the clock - no licence to punt required but all machines will be vegas-style. Reels with a mechanical handle and credits are not retained. Coins only.

It is pretty hard to go broke if you have to feed in 20c pieces to have your fun.

It's up to 93%, but as low as 87%. Either way that includes any credits you win (not a 93% return on cash, rather credits). If you have ever seen some pokie machine turnover screens, you would know that they generally pay out between 1-5% cash against the cash that is put into the machine.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
67,083
You obviously know very little about pokies if you don't know what the minimum bet is. The answer is 1c by the way. I usually bet 5c/10c a game.

You have never played a poker machine yet you are able to tell us how evil you think they are?


I meant max bet! It would be pretty hard to blow $1200 an hour with a 10c a roll bet! I presume there are some machines where you can bet a lot more per roll and I am guessing it is these machines that suck the money out of addicts the worse?

I've never shot up with smack but I have a decent understanding of the misery it causes most addicts!
 

Green Machine

First Grade
Messages
5,844
Interesting story on the 730 last night:

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2011/s3328243.htm

Against the odds

Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Broadcast: 28/09/2011
Reporter: Geoff Thompson
NSW Government statistics reveal that a fifth of all problem gamblers undergoing counselling in that state report committing a criminal offence because of their addiction.

<H2>Transcript

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: Problem gambling's been in the spotlight this week with Government plans to impose limits on poker machine bets.

Now there's growing alarm about the links between problem gambling and crime.

New South Wales Government statistics reveal that a fifth of all problem gamblers in counselling have committed a crime because of their addiction.

The problem's especially noticeable in some of Australia's most drug-affected suburbs in Sydney's south-west.

Geoff Thompson reports.

GEOFF THOMPSON, REPORTER: They're both multibillion-dollar industries, which thrive in dark corners under artificial lights. But while one is legal and openly embraced by business, sporting clubs and government, the other is a spurned criminal activity, hidden underground.

Now new evidence gleaned from the parole records of convicted drug offenders proves that these two very different worlds are nourishing each other to an alarming degree.

Almost three quarters of convicted drug offenders from Sydney's Vietnamese communities claim that their gambling problems led them to drug crimes.

NICK XENOPHON, INDEPENDENT SENATOR: The depth of the evidence now is that there's a clear link between drug crime and gambling addiction. That's something that hasn't been revealed to this extent and it really strengthens the case for reform.

ANTHONY BALL, EXEC. DIR., CLUBS AUSTRALIA: It is criminal activity and Asian gangs - that is really what the police are concerned about. For Nick Xenophon then to make the huge leap and to say that this is the reason why we need to introduce mandatory pre-commitment is just amazing.

GEOFF THOMPSON: The strong correlation between problem gambling and drug crime was unearthed by Ambrose Dinh who was spent the past 15 years working with Vietnamese offenders in some of Sydney's most drug-troubled suburbs. He believes that even if a third of the claims are false, most are genuine.

AMBROSE DINH, NSW CORRECTIVE SERVICES: It's not my testament. I interviewed them directly and I know what they are doing. It's not my judgement because I - my work is interview those people and try to have the assessment on them so I know exactly what going on.

GEOFF THOMPSON: His confidence is supported by recent police operations which have targeted hydroponic cannabis houses and heroin trafficking syndicates in Sydney and Melbourne. At least half of those interviewed claim gambling debts led to their crimes and many say they were actively recruited from around poker machines.

SCOTT COOK, NSW ASIAN CRIME SQUAD: If they're in a gaming establishment, they are sometimes approached by what could be termed as loan sharks who offer them money. They're offered with high interest rates. Those people inevitably don't pay back, and they're offered a way out of the debt, whether it's by committing frauds, opening bank accounts, trafficking in heroin or smuggling heroin into - across country, or whether it's sitting on a hydro crop, for example.

GEOFF THOMPSON: Police and parole officers agree that convicted drug offenders are likely to say anything if they think it will reduce their jail time, a point Clubs Australia doesn't want ignored.

ANTHONY BALL: Let's keep in mind that these people are criminals and police are talking to them about that and prosecuting them, and it's a very easy excuse for a criminal to say that they're a problem gambler to reduce their sentence, and I think we need to keep that very much in mind.

GEOFF THOMPSON: But there is compelling evidence of the links between problem gambling and crime in the broader community too.

A NSW Government analysis of gambling counselling data found that 20 per cent of problem gamblers in that state say they have committed offences related to their addiction. Focus on south-western Sydney and that statistic jumps to 35 per cent.

NICK XENOPHON: The fact is there is a massive link, a very clear link between gambling and crime, and this related study shows how deep that link is and how widespread it is.

GEOFF THOMPSON: But even among those convicted for being drug mules or crop-sitters, few are hardened criminals. Most are first offenders.

AMBROSE DINH: No, they're not criminal by nature, definite.

SCOTT COOK: They look for people who they can use as sacrificial lambs to simply go and do the high risk activity, so that if they are caught it's not interrupting their business.

GEOFF THOMPSON: It starts with losing on the pokies and new friends offering easy cash, but in the end, the stakes could not be higher, particularly for heroin traffickers.

SCOTT COOK: Trafficking heroin from an Asian country to Australia is likely to get you caught in an Asian country that carries the death penalty. Likewise, trafficking drugs internally into Australia puts people at risk of having the packaging explode in their stomachs and they die in any event. So there are massive risks.

GEOFF THOMPSON: Throwing a new question into the debate over whether proposed pre-commitment legislation will reduce pokie addiction: could it keep some people out of jail or even save their lives?

LEIGH SALES: Geoff Thompson with that report.

</H2>
 

sharko

Juniors
Messages
911
The Australia Clubs lobby are horrified that them and villians are mentioned in the same sentence..the clubs are happy to take pokie monies from any sources and then use junior sport etc as a cover.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
Do you think that means that 93% of what is put in is returned to the punter?

Or is your payout on an even money proposition set at .93?


The take is too high regardless & the things eat notes too fast regardless.


How about winding back the clock - no licence to punt required but all machines will be vegas-style. Reels with a mechanical handle and credits are not retained. Coins only.

It is pretty hard to go broke if you have to feed in 20c pieces to have your fun.

There are no 20c machines any more. You need to put $1 in then play 1c per game or multiples of 1c.

Another compromise could be slow down the rate of spin so it will take longer to lose a certain amount.
 
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bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
It's up to 93%, but as low as 87%. Either way that includes any credits you win (not a 93% return on cash, rather credits). If you have ever seen some pokie machine turnover screens, you would know that they generally pay out between 1-5% cash against the cash that is put into the machine.

I'm pretty sure the payout is set at 93% by law.

I don't know which club you go to but at all the clubs I have been to in Sydney (that would be most of them) credits = cash. When you are finished playing you simply hit the payout button and take the ticket to the cashier and collect your cash.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
67,083
Panthers league clubs pay out less than 1% of their pokie takings to support RL ($91.7mill income, grants of $600K paid out in 2010)
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
I meant max bet! It would be pretty hard to blow $1200 an hour with a 10c a roll bet! I presume there are some machines where you can bet a lot more per roll and I am guessing it is these machines that suck the money out of addicts the worse?

I've never shot up with smack but I have a decent understanding of the misery it causes most addicts!

That would be the $1 machines which very few people use. Let me see if I've got this straight. If I want to have a $1 bet on a poker machine I would need a license but I can bet my house on one horse race ... without a license?
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
Panthers league clubs pay out less than 1% of their pokie takings to support RL ($91.7mill income, grants of $600K paid out in 2010)

You seem to be ignoring my comments. $91 million turnover minus 93% payout then take out all the clubs other expenses like power, wages etc. It's not as profitable as some people make out.
 

Dogs Of War

Coach
Messages
12,721
I'm pretty sure the payout is set at 93% by law.

I don't know which club you go to but at all the clubs I have been to in Sydney (that would be most of them) credits = cash. When you are finished playing you simply hit the payout button and take the ticket to the cashier and collect your cash.

What I am pointing out, is that it needs to pay out that 93% of credits, not 93% of cash that was put into the machine. There is a big difference between the two. So credits includes all those small wins along the way (you know 30 credit win when you bet 50 credits).

It's why you next statement is a load of crap.

You seem to be ignoring my comments. $91 million turnover minus 93% payout then take out all the clubs other expenses like power, wages etc. It's not as profitable as some people make out.

Because it's not 93% of a payout of cash. As I pointed out earlier, having seen the audit screens of pokie machines, cash payed out is more in the 2-5% range, this is why they are so profitable. One of the main reasons for that low pay out, is because most people aren't happy with doubling there money, they want more. So either they play the credits out, or go to another machine and repeat.

I did point out that I have had a gambling problem, and have gone through counselling, and read a hell of a lot about how the machines work etc. It's one of the reasons I am so for this system on the $1 and over machines (the ones that will bleed you very fast). I would have never had the problem cause me as many issues with this sort of system in place, cause most of the time I could control myself, just occasionally I would go a little stupid (chasing lost money and watch more dissapear hand over fist).

And I can tell you now, that there are very few resources available to help people in that situation, I was just lucky enough to realise I had a problem, and be prepared to pay for councelling myself. But at $180 an hour, it ain't cheap (still cheaper than gambling which is how I justified it). Don't forget, that for most problem gamblers, the gambling is just the symptom, not the problem, which is why professional counselling is a must.
 

Cletus

First Grade
Messages
7,171
I'm pretty sure the payout is set at 93% by law.

I don't know which club you go to but at all the clubs I have been to in Sydney (that would be most of them) credits = cash. When you are finished playing you simply hit the payout button and take the ticket to the cashier and collect your cash.

You're misunderstanding what 93% payout means. It means that every spin you should, on average, lose 7% of that stake. So if you bet $1, averaged over time you should lose 7 cents per spin. It doesn't mean that if you put $20 in the machine you should get $18.60 back out. The longer people play the more they lose.


And this legislation only applies to machines over $1 per spin. I know that when I'm pissed and playing $1 per spin I can lose plenty of money quickly, I'd hate to think how much you could lose playing higher amounts. I really don't think this will effect most punters and if you do want to play higher amounts you can just set your own limit. It's not like you don't need a card to get into clubs anyway, the clubs lobby are just whinging because they won't be able to fleece people as quickly.
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
67,083
You seem to be ignoring my comments. $91 million turnover minus 93% payout then take out all the clubs other expenses like power, wages etc. It's not as profitable as some people make out.

Aside from your incorrect maths on payouts of cash v cash income I was more providing some evidence for the debate about how these pokie clubs are a god send to jnr sport, in reality the money that jnr sport gets in comparison to the the money the pokie clubs bring in is very little.

The NRL would gain a lot more respect of it was campaigning for the relevant state Govt's to use its ill gotten gains from pokie tax to increase funding to grass roots sports so clubs didn't have to rely on pokie clubs to fund them!
 

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