NRL and AFL tackle PM over plan to curb the use of poker machines

[Dogs Of War]

To isolate all problem gambling to Poker Machines is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. This legislation will do absolutely BUGGER ALL! to stop gambling in this country. All they'll do if you are a problem gambler is say "F-that!, I'll just go online...or I'll duck to the tab and bet on the horses, or I'll play poker online".

It has been shown that Pokie Machine players once they give up, the majority do not go to other forms of gambling.

Ensure that these guys get counselling...fine...but this stupid legislation isn't going to fix anything...and anyone believes that it will...has no idea how easy it is to gamble in Australia.

Where are these services? I have tried to use them, they are rubbish, scripts read out to you via the G-Line, services only available during Business Hours when you work. This part of the equation is rubbish in itself. So don't say ensure these guys get counselling when the services are just not available to most.

Anything that puts road blocks in the way of someone becoming addicted and spending all there cash is a good thing.

And I can't say it enough times, over 90% of people will NOT need a gambling card. It's only those who want to spend over $1 a spin, the guys who are most likely to be problem gamblers. The clubs want to ensure you think that everybody will be affected so they can keep on milking the golden goose.

 

[Green Machine]

Did I say it was a tax.

I said if they plan to do this, then scrap the existing additional pokie tax that is currently in place.

That won't happen because the tax from Clubs and Pubs goes to the state governments. The clubs did a deal with the government before the 2007 state election,

But this initiative will cost millions to implement in infrastructure as well as reducing revenue...

That's line the clubs have been running. Anthony Ball was on 7.30 last night and the question was put to him about recalibrating the machines to lose less per hour and he backed away from the question.

so why is there a need for additional tax on top of that any more?.

There is no additional tax. It all goes to the state governments.

 

[Dogs Of War]

Did I say it was a tax.

I said if they plan to do this, then scrap the existing additional pokie tax that is currently in place.

http://penrith-press.whereilive.com...ax-break-to-help-nsw-clubs-weather-pokie-tax/

You asked for it, there it is. Notice that it is a pro-clubs article in itself, so they also tip there hat that something is being done to support them.

But this initiative will cost millions to implement in infrastructure as well as reducing revenue...so why is there a need for additional tax on top of that any more?.

Hmm, clubs/pubs have no problem spending money to implement infrastructure for other measures like the loyaty cards so gamblers can earn "points" while playing. And the clubs would only need to install the cards on the high rollers machines, thus reducing the cost somewhat, while the other machines would need to be refreshed to reduce the amount you can lose an hour. Given the time frame this is allowed to occur in, and also thinking that over that time period, many of the machines would be refreshed anyway, the impact on clubs is a lot less than made out.

It's just another case of the boy who cried wolf. Smoking ban saw a small downturn for a while, and now it's back to normal levels, this will be no different, except that problem gamblers and there families will have more cash in there pockets.

 

[Big Mick]

And I can't say it enough times, over 90% of people will NOT need a gambling card. It's only those who want to spend over $1 a spin, the guys who are most likely to be problem gamblers. The clubs want to ensure you think that everybody will be affected so they can keep on milking the golden goose.

And I will say it enough times. What is the freaking point if it is only going to impact 10% of people?

Why waste money on infrastructure which will only ever impact a SMALL % of people.

Its a waste of god damn money.

 

[Dogs Of War]

And I will say it enough times. What is the freaking point if it is only going to impact 10% of people?

Why waste money on infrastructure which will only ever impact a SMALL % of people.

Its a waste of god damn money.

Oh, why build roads in small towns. The majority of us will never use them. Why build the rail line out to Leppington? Most of us will never find a reason to ever visit Leppington (well not if I can help it).

It's a head in the sand argument mate. Anyone can become a problem gambler, it's just with this in place, it's much more unlikely that they won't be in control of how much they lose.

Not to mention, think of the jobs created while they implement this over the next 7 or so years (yeah, it's that long they have to implement it).

 

[Brutus]

WHERE DOES THE MONEY AFL CLUBS MAKE FROM POKER MACHINES GO?

Does any of it go back into the community???

 

[Patorick]

Surely some sort of compromise can be reached here, isn't that what democratic politics is all about?

 

[legend]

lol at the irony of the betting ad at the top of this page!

What's your point? Advertising helps keep the site free for people like you to express your opinion. Rleague are no different.

Without the advertising there is no site and you would not be able to continue your pathetic, moralistic rant but yet, here you are. Instead of irony, I think I'll refer to it as hipocrisy.

Spanner, do I have to disclose my interests in this site now that I have made a post defending its use of gambling advertising???:crazy:

 

[Spanner in the works]

What's your point? Advertising helps keep the site free for people like you to express your opinion. Rleague are no different.

Without the advertising there is no site and you would not be able to continue your pathetic, moralistic rant but yet, here you are. Instead of irony, I think I'll refer to it as hipocrisy.

Spanner, do I have to disclose my interests in this site now that I have made a post defending its use of gambling advertising???:crazy:

Are you employed by a broadcaster who is signatory to a code of practice set by ACMA? That was my issue.

 

[Parra]

The legislationfor Mandatory Commitment for poker machines that lose over $1,200 @ hour is not a tax.
There is no proposal for Mandatory Commitment for machines that lose up to $120 @ hour.

Why not just work out what is the acceptable amount per hour for gamblers to lose and cap the machines?

It is nothing to see people play multiple machines.

From what I gather in this thread, if a player requires a licence to lose money and the limit expires, they just go and sit at a machine that doesn't require a licence? One that takes cash at 10% of the rate of the other machines?


So the gambler is still fleeced, but must spend hours longer at the club to achieve the same level of broke?

 

[Dogs Of War]

Why not just work out what is the acceptable amount per hour for gamblers to lose and cap the machines?

It is nothing to see people play multiple machines.

Which would mean they would need multiple cards, and if they had that situation, it would be very easy to stop. That said, it's not like clubs/pub stop that now, which they really should, as it's a definite sign of problem gambling. But as long as they are getting money in, they won't. Which is why other measures need to be put in place. You can't let the clubs/pub police the situation.

From what I gather in this thread, if a player requires a licence to lose money and the limit expires, they just go and sit at a machine that doesn't require a licence? One that takes cash at 10% of the rate of the other machines?

So the gambler is still fleeced, but must spend hours longer at the club to achieve the same level of broke?

Yep. But you need to understand something about problem gambling, playing those lower limits is pain to them. Thus if that's where they end up, it's a good thing as they are likely just to call it a day as they can't win back what they have lost.

 

[Green Machine]

Why not just work out what is the acceptable amount per hour for gamblers to lose and cap the machines?

I think I've already said that. So did Dogs of War,

It is nothing to see people play multiple machines.

I know a bloke who used to play 2 at a time and he would put a big glass ash tray on each machine to keep them rolling

From what I gather in this thread, if a player requires a licence to lose money and the limit expires, they just go and sit at a machine that doesn't require a licence? One that takes cash at 10% of the rate of the other machines?

True, but he'll be only losing $120 @ hour instead of $1,200

So the gambler is still fleeced, but must spend hours longer at the club to achieve the same level of broke?

You would think that clubs or pubs would have some sort of Duty of Care with their patrons who are at risk. Especially the ones who sign up to pre commitment. My local pub used to sell plenty of shots until they caused too many fights. Now its one round only and none after 10pm,

 

[Goddo]

From what I understand, the real impact on clubs is a result of two elements -

1. The already existing very high state based tax rate on ALL pokies gambling and
2. This new cap which will prevent big spending on pokies (eg more than $1200 per hour)

The combination of these two things will make pokies not profitable for clubs. No money from small or large bets. But the tax rate on pokies is not concistent Australia wide. NSW clubs especially are taxed at a higher rate than other states, which makes the NRL's postition understandable.

You can't get rid of pokies all together, as has been pointed out, people will just find other ways to gamble their money. Nor can you target pokies as the sole source of gambling vice - thats stupid and will only help companies like TAB.

There must be a compromise solution to this problem - what is the government outcome they want to achieve with pokies? If its to reduce the impact on problem gamblers, there is no need for high tax rates on $1 bets. Yet the state governments won't stop the tax because they want the revenue.

I think there needs to be better national legislation in regards to ALL gambling, that involves state and federal government, clubs, sports bodies, casinos, et cetera. I think our fanatical South Australian evangelical is squeezing the PM hard on this issue, because she does not want to be seen as killing clubs while recording record low prefered leader figures.

Oh and on State revenue rasing, I read somewhere the gov are thinking of scrapping all stamp duty on property and raising the GST to 12.5%. This is actually a good idea, states need more revenue and have come up with all sorts of stupid little taxes to get it.

 

[CC_Roosters]

From what I understand, the real impact on clubs is a result of two elements -

1. The already existing very high state based tax rate on ALL pokies gambling and
2. This new cap which will prevent big spending on pokies (eg more than $1200 per hour)

The combination of these two things will make pokies not profitable for clubs. No money from small or large bets. But the tax rate on pokies is not concistent Australia wide. NSW clubs especially are taxed at a higher rate than other states, which makes the NRL's postition understandable.

You can't get rid of pokies all together, as has been pointed out, people will just find other ways to gamble their money. Nor can you target pokies as the sole source of gambling vice - thats stupid and will only help companies like TAB.

There must be a compromise solution to this problem - what is the government outcome they want to achieve with pokies? If its to reduce the impact on problem gamblers, there is no need for high tax rates on $1 bets. Yet the state governments won't stop the tax because they want the revenue.

I think there needs to be better national legislation in regards to ALL gambling, that involves state and federal government, clubs, sports bodies, casinos, et cetera. I think our fanatical South Australian evangelical is squeezing the PM hard on this issue, because she does not want to be seen as killing clubs while recording record low prefered leader figures.

Oh and on State revenue rasing, I read somewhere the gov are thinking of scrapping all stamp duty on property and raising the GST to 12.5%. This is actually a good idea, states need more revenue and have come up with all sorts of stupid little taxes to get it.

How is that even possible. I cannot imagine spending $1200/hour anywhere

 

[cleary89]

Its like the cigarette plain packaging. The cigarette companies say it won't do anything, yet spend tens of millions fighting against it. If it wouldn't do anything, they wouldn't be so scared of it.

I reckon 95% of people opposing the law listen to allan jones.

 

[Perth Red]

60 mins, $20 per minute. Not sure what the min bet is on these machines as never been on a pokie but I am guessing it must be $5 plus which would be a spin every 10-15secs. Probably do able but you really must be out of your head to flush your cash down the drain in this way!

It was very interesting listening to Vlad fire up about it yesterday. You have to credit their media management, they somehow managed to oppose it yet make it sound like it was all the NRL and gaming peoples doing that there was opposition to the bill.

 

[Parra]

I would prefer legislation that provides much better payouts for all machines, regardless of what amount is gambled.

 

[Parra]

I recall the days of 5 card draw machines in pubs. Blokes would come over if you hit a royal flush and buy the win just so they could double it up to the maximum. They'd just fork over $500 cash and double away.

Do people still do this with pokies? Seems that any licence-to-punt deal will just result in a thriving market for selling/renting licences.

This has not been thought through at all.

 

[Green Machine]

I recall the days of 5 card draw machines in pubs. Blokes would come over if you hit a royal flush and buy the win just so they could double it up to the maximum. They'd just fork over $500 cash and double away.

Do people still do this with pokies? Seems that any licence-to-punt deal will just result in a thriving market for selling/renting licences.

This has not been thought through at all.

I can remember that happening quite a bit with shady characters who dealt in drugs and stolen goods. It was a good way to cleanse the money. A lot of it used to go on down at Star City to cleanse illegitimate money through the casino.
I got a mate who got into a pub 10 years ago and when pokies were legalised. He got out about 5 years ago and made a fortune. About 12 months after he started, he told me about a bloke who was involved in illegal actives. This bloke would put about $1500 through the machines every day. Today, companies like Woolworths are buying up pubs and making a fortune out of poker machines. The whole thing is out of control,

 

[Eels Dude]

60 mins, $20 per minute. Not sure what the min bet is on these machines as never been on a pokie but I am guessing it must be $5 plus which would be a spin every 10-15secs. Probably do able but you really must be out of your head to flush your cash down the drain in this way!

It was very interesting listening to Vlad fire up about it yesterday. You have to credit their media management, they somehow managed to oppose it yet make it sound like it was all the NRL and gaming peoples doing that there was opposition to the bill.

You can bet as little as 1 cent per roll on some machines if you want to. Most allow as low as 20 cent bets. I don't think I've seen a poker machine that has a minimum bet below 1 dollar. As long as you play them responsibly 20 dollars can last an hour.