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NRL club merger's

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
Yeah well my posts in this thread are more to with your suggestions of relocating the Roosters as opposed to the Sharks. If there was any club in Sydney who should/ could relocate it's definitely the Sharks. That's not to suggest it should happen though. They kind of sit in the middle of Dragons/ Steelers territory we've previously discussed and eaten into that territory. But regardless, they are there now and they've developed a supporter base. Cronulla and the Sutherland shire are a funny part of Sydney that a lot of people who grow up and live there just don't venture outside the area unless they have to.

But it's a big commitment you're asking clubs and the NRL to do just by suggesting they relocate to an risky new market. Not to mention the players. And then you have to ask will the new region accept a partially relocated team. Something the Central Coast did in a way.

All true but as I've said, this is if they have to and my guess is we'll know if they have to after the development deal - one way or another.

Once again though if I had said generic names instead of actually club names I think I would've gotten far less angry responses.

Norths were going to relocate there full time, then after the forced merger they became a half Sydney, half CC team and all of a sudden there was a lack of enthusiasm.

I think that was doomed as soon as the people said "Hey lets combined two traditional rivals".

Say if Norths were stable and were going to Gosford alone, not saying this was ever their intention, but they may have been able to play a 6 & 6 a bit like the Dragons do with Wollongong and remained stable.

But as I said, that's without the Manly involvement and they had pretty much committed to full investment on the Central Coast. See Bears fans in North Sydney knew they were moving to Gosford full time yet that's not why they got angry - they were angry about being culled altogether after the Northern Eagles venture. They were just glad that their team was living on in some form - but were dismayed when it was cut altogether - to the benefit of their arch rivals no less.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
Anyway, what is all this crap about punting Sydney clubs? It will solve nothing apart from giving other codes pockets of unrepresented areas to sink roots - such as the North Shore. Brisbane and Newcastle at their best aside, there is no club that gets better crowds than the better supported Sydney clubs.

Also, the thought that the Roosters are the poor crowd drawers is disproven whenever they look like are finals bound. There are no "failed" Sydney clubs. There is no need for mergers - none apart from the unlikely Penrith/Sharks merger would ever happen anyway.

The question is how to bring in the bears to fix that North Shore problem and then be able to expand elsewhere. Even if you admit 4 teams within 10 years to make a 20 team comp in 15-20 years there'll still 5-6 areas seeking admission. At least with a partial relocation of 2 Sydney clubs you can expand to 6 location inside the framework of a 20 team competition. That would settle the expansion issue and competition stability for quite some time.

The question though ultimately comes back to Sydney.
 

unforgiven

Bench
Messages
3,138
I dont ever rememner Wollongong being classed as "Dragons teritory". In 1967 the NSWRFL imposed their southern boundary at the Georges River - for the next 15 years it was nearer to Cronulla.

I dont know about Wollongong ever being classed as dragons teritory, but I do remember a thread discussing this years ago about St George being a part of the Illawarra region. Evidence was mentioned to prove this including the Illawarra suburbs tennis club still being located in Rockdale. Very of topic and I dont know how accurate those claims are but I always thought it an interesting argument.
 

Cockadoodledoo

First Grade
Messages
5,045
The past couple of season's there is always talk about how crap crowds are for club's like Parramatta, Penrith, South's and the Roosters etc, so could any of them have a successful merger like West Tigers and St.George Illawarra as Penrith/Parramatta and Roosters/Souths are too close for comfort unlike West's and Balmain and St.George and Illawarra.

Do you also think judging by the good/decent crowds that West Tigers and St.George Illawarra they should of been separate clubs as there fan base is a too far apart:?.

Why would the Roosters merge with a team that plays out of Western Sydney? :sarcasm:
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
67,091
Is there any evidence of the North Shore "being lost" to RU? Warratahs numbers up? Jnr numbers up? TV audiences for S15 in Sydney up? More Ru clubs in that region now than in 1999? Any facts to back this up or is it the usual, if I dont have a team in my backyard I will support another code nonsense?
 

KiamaSaint

Coach
Messages
17,703
Actually, the Illawarra (which is larger then Wollongong, just saying) has always had a natural affinity with the Dragons. Yes Illawarra players went else where as mentioned, but not in the same number as joined the Dragons. Young boys would on the whole be keen to play for the Dragons. Even now, you can see what playing for the Red V means to Illawarra players like Dean Young, he bleeds red and white.


Even when the Steelers came in, I estimate that about half of footy fans were still supporting the Dragons as well as wanting to see the local team do well. Other Steelers fans will dispute this I am sure, but that is my recollection.

In terms of the Bears and the Central Coast, I am pretty sure that move was on before the Northern Eagles was even talked about. What is amazing is that we had a horrendous year of weather that delay the Stadium being built and therefore the Bears relocating which seemed to be the final straw in their coffin.
 

Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
Is there any evidence of the North Shore "being lost" to RU? Warratahs numbers up? Jnr numbers up? TV audiences for S15 in Sydney up? More Ru clubs in that region now than in 1999? Any facts to back this up or is it the usual, if I dont have a team in my backyard I will support another code nonsense?

Yes there is. But I'm not going to bother finding it for someone who has a such an arrogant attitude.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
67,091
haha thought not!

Lets all have a go, its terrible since the North shore lost an NRL team, losing it to netball is a travesty, how could we let them just walk in unopposed. You can't expect people to travel 25 minutes to watch a game in a surrounding suburb. We must have a team in every suburb or ice hockey will take over Sydney.
Fun isn't it? easy to make sweeping statements about how areas have been lost without given any facts to back up such claims. There's currently 10 teams play within an hour of the "North Shore" not like there isn't a choice for RL fans. If you are so p155 weak that you will jump to a rival code because you don't have an NRL side within 15minutes then your not much of a fan in the first place imo. You couldn't pay me enough to follow the Force despite RL neglecting my backyard for 15 years!
 
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Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
haha thought not!

Wonderful. I witnessed first hand from working in the North Shore at the time what effect it had. I'm an Eels supporter not a Bears supporter so I'm indifferent. If you want to see evidence look it up for yourself. You're not worth wasting time on. If you came across a respectful bloke people on here might actually get behind your campaign of getting the Perth Reds re-instated.
 
Messages
33,280
No need for all the agro, that's just pointless.

Again I ask though, in all sincerity - if the club is still called the Roosters, still run by the same management group, still wears the same jersey and still plays games out of the SFS, is just the mere fact that they would play ten games in New Zealand and that you have to share your team with New Zealanders really that offensive to you? I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there about 10 New Zealander/Cook Islander players on the 2012 roster? Or is it just the fact that they even have to modify anything at all? The club wasn't always called Sydney City - they changed it to broaden their appeal so they are open to changing some traditions.

What does the amount of pacific islanders at the club have to do with turning us in to a quasi NZ team? You can not be serious ? /McEnroe. The entire junior RL is dominated by pacific islanders should every team play half their games in a country with less people than Sydney?

The club changed their name - just like Balmain and Canterbury. Remember Wests actually moved their base? Souths also picked up moved. We are still where we have been just with a name that is more appropriate for the 21st century NATIONAL rugby league instead if 20th century NSWRFL

You seriously expect me to continue paying for my season ticket which I've done for years and put my support in to a team I've done since I was child in to a hybrid Easts New Zealand team? C'mon now. I doubt the Kiwis would fully get behind it either.

As for agro, everywhere you look we're the ones with Cronulla that people say have to go when everything we have done but the football team has improved. Why have we gotta go when you can't even get 50 Penrith fans to turn up to games outside of Penrith or when Wests need to make matches members only to get in front of our members numbers? Our membership numbers would be easily 12k in January if we had their last few seasons and the most marketable player in the game. Shit, we're on course for 10k with Anasta in the team.
 
Messages
2,399
My suggestion is a bit to radical for some people but I'll repeat it.

Relocate the Sharks to Christchurch, Roosters to Wellington but extend the comp by 1 week so the Roosters can still play 10 games in NZ and 7 games at the SFS and the Sharks can play 10 games in NZ and 7 games at Endeavour.

Tigers, Rabbitohs & Dragons have played games at Moore Park. Set up a 3 match away game membership arrangement and that's 10 games a season the Roosters still get out of their traditional Eastern Sydney base. As all the players etc would be based in New Zealand it would only feel like a "home game" to the fans as everyone else is travelling.

All teams still get a maximum of 12 out of the 25 games as home games. Sharks/Roosters have to travel for those 7 games in Sydney. Let the two clubs make money of the Sydney memberships but any extra gate receipts could be divided amongst the other 18 clubs as compensation.

It leaves 4 spots in a 20 team comp for expansion - Central Coast, SEQ, Perth & Central Qld - in conjunction to the 2 extra NZ locations.

Flip it's well thought out mate, thinking out of the box and all that, but I don't like it. If you're gonna have a team in southern NZ, then it should be a new franchise, I like the name Southern Orcas. The Sharks should go into NSW Cup and be joined with the Storm as they are now, and unfortunately I feel that the Rabbitohs should join them and help out the WA Reds.
 
Messages
2,399
Doc, think you might be a doctor too, I'm sorry but your suggestion doesn't have quite the right feel to it. Excellent posts, but it doesn't quite hit the spot in my opinion, and most seem to agree with me on this one.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
I dont ever rememner Wollongong being classed as "Dragons teritory". In 1967 the NSWRFL imposed their southern boundary at the Georges River - for the next 15 years it was nearer to Cronulla.

I think people think of the Dragons link because Langands was a Wollongong boy - there were obviously others I cannot recall that headed north to Kpgarah in the glory years - up to Slippery Morris. But Bob Fulton went to Manly, John Dorahy to Wests, Mick Cronin to Parra and Blocker Roach to Balmain. The claim that the Illawarra was a defacto Dragons junior nursery is a historical lie.0

Anyway, what is all this crap about punting Sydney clubs? It will solve nothing apart from giving other codes pockets of unrepresented areas to sink roots - such as the North Shore. Brisbane and Newcastle at their best aside, there is no club that gets better crowds than the better supported Sydney clubs.

Also, the thought that the Roosters are the poor crowd drawers is disproven whenever they look like are finals bound. There are no "failed" Sydney clubs. There is no need for mergers - none apart from the unlikely Penrith/Sharks merger would ever happen anyway.

Maybe every suburb should have a team. Is 180 enough?
 

newman

First Grade
Messages
7,207
How come when these hypothetical discussions happen people only use crowds as a benchmark? There is a hell of a lot more to a football club than their gate takings week to week.

Here's some facts for you.

- There are not too many teams in Sydney. Sydney is the biggest market in Australia, the birthplace and spiritual home of the NRL, and as such it has a right to be over represented in the club mix. The clubs that dickbrains on here want to cast aside built the NRL from the seed of the NSWRL into what it is today.
- The NRL admin has no problem with crowds, crowds were not identified as a problem in the state of the game report, in fact they were given a big tick. The only people who see crowds as an issue are the hand wringers on here.
-The NRL admin also does not support any more mergers or relocations unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances. These ventures are commercially risky and no-one really wins. The NRL/ARLC learned from the existing mergers and the northern eagles and souths debacles and thankfully now supports cautious, supported, viable expansion. This doesn't happen overnight.
- Canberra and the GC are just as financially shaky as the usual smaller sydney club targets on here (Sharks, Panthers). How come we don't hear too much about that?
- No one region/city/bid/club that is currently not in the NRL has an inalienable right or entitlement to entry into the competition over each other and, particularly over existing clubs. It needs to be earned. The sooner this board comes to realise that, the better.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
haha thought not!

Lets all have a go, its terrible since the North shore lost an NRL team, losing it to netball is a travesty, how could we let them just walk in unopposed. You can't expect people to travel 25 minutes to watch a game in a surrounding suburb. We must have a team in every suburb or ice hockey will take over Sydney.
Fun isn't it? easy to make sweeping statements about how areas have been lost without given any facts to back up such claims. There's currently 10 teams play within an hour of the "North Shore" not like there isn't a choice for RL fans. If you are so p155 weak that you will jump to a rival code because you don't have an NRL side within 15minutes then your not much of a fan in the first place imo. You couldn't pay me enough to follow the Force despite RL neglecting my backyard for 15 years!

I'd say that the Bears being axed had as much an impact on Bears fans as the Reds being axed from Perth had on rugby league in Perth.

Kill off the club that you follow, kill off your interest in the game.

What does the amount of pacific islanders at the club have to do with turning us in to a quasi NZ team? You can not be serious ? /McEnroe. The entire junior RL is dominated by pacific islanders should every team play half their games in a country with less people than Sydney?

The club changed their name - just like Balmain and Canterbury. Remember Wests actually moved their base? Souths also picked up moved. We are still where we have been just with a name that is more appropriate for the 21st century NATIONAL rugby league instead if 20th century NSWRFL

You seriously expect me to continue paying for my season ticket which I've done for years and put my support in to a team I've done since I was child in to a hybrid Easts New Zealand team? C'mon now. I doubt the Kiwis would fully get behind it either.

I just find it interesting that you can support a team with so many New Zealanders yet lose two games year and share that side with New Zealanders and it offends you. I'm just curious - is it the idea of any change at all that offends you? That the best thing about the Roosters is that it hasn't changed up. Like do you think less of Souths for moving to Homebush? For instance, if something happened to the SFS and they had to play at Homebush, would that offend you?

I'm just curious because you admit that changes had to be made to fit in with the 21st century NRL but there's still 9 more decades to go. Anything could happen.

Flip it's well thought out mate, thinking out of the box and all that, but I don't like it. If you're gonna have a team in southern NZ, then it should be a new franchise, I like the name Southern Orcas. The Sharks should go into NSW Cup and be joined with the Storm as they are now, and unfortunately I feel that the Rabbitohs should join them and help out the WA Reds.

Will Sharks supporters follow their team in NSW cup? Probably but nowhere near as much as what they do now.

It would have the same effect as a full relocation.

-There are not too many teams in Sydney. Sydney is the biggest market in Australia, the birthplace and spiritual home of the NRL, and as such it has a right to be over represented in the club mix.

You state that there aren't too many teams in Sydney but then admit it has a right to be over-represented.

- The NRL admin has no problem with crowds, crowds were not identified as a problem in the state of the game report,

The state of the game reports, like any annual report from any sporting body is a puff piece of PR.

Their critical assessment on these matters is of course held privately. To announce in public any negative statement is bad management.

-The NRL admin also does not support any more mergers or relocations unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances. These ventures are commercially risky and no-one really wins. The NRL/ARLC learned from the existing mergers and the northern eagles and souths debacles and thankfully now supports cautious, supported, viable expansion. This doesn't happen overnight.

They've ruled out full relocation but not mergers (an inter-sydney merger still maintains the current club presence). They also have not ruled out a partial merger as I've suggested (which also maintains the current club presence).

-Canberra and the GC are just as financially shaky as the usual smaller sydney club targets on here (Sharks, Panthers). How come we don't hear too much about that?

Canberra is probably the smallest media market in the league after North Qld. It is always going to struggle. The question is - do we want a permanent presence in Canberra? If the Raiders were axed, the NRL would find it hard to get that groundwork back - hence why its not as discussed.

Titans are struggling due to ticket prices and lack of marketing for a new club. Really, just bad management.

- No one region/city/bid/club that is currently not in the NRL has an inalienable right or entitlement to entry into the competition over each other and, particularly over existing clubs. It needs to be earned.

True but the attitude of clubs need to shift from their own self interest to the interest of the game.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
I just find it interesting that you can support a team with so many New Zealanders yet lose two games year and share that side with New Zealanders and it offends you. I'm just curious - is it the idea of any change at all that offends you? That the best thing about the Roosters is that it hasn't changed up. Like do you think less of Souths for moving to Homebush? For instance, if something happened to the SFS and they had to play at Homebush, would that offend you?

Yes the idea of sharing it with NZers offends us. f**k NZ, it's our team.

Change is offensive.

Souffs are sellouts.

If we played at homebush they could stick their season ticket up their arse.

Easts to win.

Hope that clears things up.
 

POPEYE

Coach
Messages
11,397
Crowds mean f**k all except to give a good look on tele. If crowds meant shit the Roosters would have been belly up many years ago. They have more supporters than most clubs and they don't give a tuppenny where the clubhouse or home ground is
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,716
The idea of my club moving or merging is very offensive. If Sydney was to lose one club by moving or merging are the crowd numbers really going to increase? Are the rest of the clubs going to start making more money? What other benefits are there to a club moving or merging? a more widespread comp? How many clubs do people think Sydney should have?
 

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