NRL expansion review process

[Perth Red]

I doubt it! The fact this entity was set up to benefit RL in ACT and yet is not investing its big profits in achieving this would suggest that it is failing in its remit. The raiders ion and off the field in terms of RL are anything but a well oiled machine and by any kpi RL measure are a failure at the moment.

 

[gyallop]

I think the bleating recently about poor governance big score lines and cash issues will have the NRL thinking twice on expansion by bringing in more clubs.

Dave Smith is a soldier/banker and will be consertative and methodical if back ground is anything to go by and his past efforts in this job.

I think he may go down the safer course of not increasing costs with more clubs but 16 clubs with relocations mergers or replacements as no one seems to be saying we need more games just more in different places and NSW just has too many teams.
Sharks are dead fish swimming if they stay in the shire and for different reasons a few other clubs should be nervous about being forced to move to sunnier climates I would think.

 

[taipan]

I think the bleating recently about poor governance big score lines and cash issues will have the NRL thinking twice on expansion by bringing in more clubs.

Dave Smith is a soldier/banker and will be consertative and methodical if back ground is anything to go by and his past efforts in this job.

I think he may go down the safer course of not increasing costs with more clubs but 16 clubs with relocations mergers or replacements as no one seems to be saying we need more games just more in different places and NSW just has too many teams.
Sharks are dead fish swimming if they stay in the shire and for different reasons a few other clubs should be nervous about being forced to move to sunnier climates I would think.

"Sharks are dead fish swimming":lol:A club about to pick up a cool $45-50m in the next couple of years,with their development.$1m pa rental on retail ,and refurbished leagues club with restaurants.Oh wait ,nothing to see here.:roll:

 

[BuffaloRules]

I think he may go down the safer course of not increasing costs with more clubs but 16 clubs with relocations mergers or replacements as no one seems to be saying we need more games just more in different places and NSW just has too many teams.

Who has been saying that??

We should get some more games on the Gold Coast, Canberra and Nth Qld maybe...

 

[Perth Red]

"Sharks are dead fish swimming":lol:A club about to pick up a cool $45-50m in the next couple of years,with their development.$1m pa rental on retail ,and refurbished leagues club with restaurants.Oh wait ,nothing to see here.:roll:

Raiders and Panthers also have a lot of money, doesn't necessarily make you successful or well supported.

 

[taipan]

Raiders and Panthers also have a lot of money, doesn't necessarily make you successful or well supported.

4,000 juniors,crowd average for a team coming last 12,552 just under the Roosters 12,947,more than Manly and Penrith.Record membership over 11,000.Owning ones ground.
Highest Sydney crowd average is under 20,000,suggests they (Sharks)are punching pretty well.
Don't let your obsession in getting the Pirates into the NRL at whatever cost to other Sydney clubs cloud your rationale.All you are doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul.Geez some clowns have never learnt from Super league.

And having a new club come on board is no guarantee of success or long term support either.Ask the Gold Coast.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

"Sharks are dead fish swimming":lol:A club about to pick up a cool $45-50m in the next couple of years,with their development.$1m pa rental on retail ,and refurbished leagues club with restaurants.Oh wait ,nothing to see here.:roll:

To be fair, the Knights probably recieved about this over the 3 years Tinks was in control...

I believe the club now has almost nothing left in the bank (and this is arguebly the most loved team in the NRL).

I dont know the specifics of the Sharks deal with the developers (do they get ongoing revenue??), but securitisation (selling an asset rather than leasing it) looks great on a balance sheet but without ongoing revenue that money burns up quickly...

 

[bobmar28]

4,000 juniors,crowd average for a team coming last 12,552 just under the Roosters 12,947,more than Manly and Penrith.Record membership over 11,000.Owning ones ground.
Highest Sydney crowd average is under 20,000,suggests they (Sharks)are punching pretty well.
Don't let your obsession in getting the Pirates into the NRL at whatever cost to other Sydney clubs cloud your rationale.All you are doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul.Geez some clowns have never learnt from Super league.

And having a new club come on board is no guarantee of success or long term support either.Ask the Gold Coast.

Please don't keep bringing up Super League. It's time people worked out that 9 teams in Sydney is a dead end street.
Look at the success of A league and recently, Super Rugby. They don't have 9 teams in Sydney.

 

[elbusto]

4,000 juniors,crowd average for a team coming last 12,552 just under the Roosters 12,947,more than Manly and Penrith.Record membership over 11,000.Owning ones ground.
Highest Sydney crowd average is under 20,000,suggests they (Sharks)are punching pretty well.
Don't let your obsession in getting the Pirates into the NRL at whatever cost to other Sydney clubs cloud your rationale.All you are doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul.Geez some clowns have never learnt from Super league.

And having a new club come on board is no guarantee of success or long term support either.Ask the Gold Coast.

Well said mate. And, unlike most other Clubs, guaranteed financial viability through the development there. The potential in that area for the mighty Sharks is huge. They just need to also get savvy about pushing the brand nationally and internationally.

 

[BuffaloRules]

Please don't keep bringing up Super League. It's time people worked out that 9 teams in Sydney is a dead end street.
Look at the success of A league and recently, Super Rugby. They don't have 9 teams in Sydney.

Super Rugby ??

One team in Sydney getting 12k a game?

 

[taipan]

To be fair, the Knights probably recieved about this over the 3 years Tinks was in control...

I believe the club now has almost nothing left in the bank (and this is arguebly the most loved team in the NRL).

I dont know the specifics of the Sharks deal with the developers (do they get ongoing revenue??), but securitisation (selling an asset rather than leasing it) looks great on a balance sheet but without ongoing revenue that money burns up quickly...

Ongoing revenue from retail development side est $1m pa.Refurbished leagues club with new restaurants overlooking the Bay=more revenue.Due to having new residential development next door est 1,200 residents.Due to new residential developments at Green Hills and Wanda 500 new houses.
Retail development on a 90 year lease ,and can be bought back by the club .
Club will have money in the Bank when all units sold.

 

[taipan]

Please don't keep bringing up Super League. It's time people worked out that 9 teams in Sydney is a dead end street.
Look at the success of A league and recently, Super Rugby. They don't have 9 teams in Sydney.

If the lessons of SL are not learnt, then you can be assured of a diminishing supporter base.Swans crowds were boosted by it and unions .

The A League has one team in Perth struggling for crowds,Newcastle ditto,
Melbourne Heart ditto.Phoenix ditto.

Without WSW the A League would be standing still.In fact Gallop is hinting at 4 teams in Sydney.

Melbourne Rebels crowds are ordinary,Force crowds down,Brumbies crowds down.The Tahs crowds were down in a state with 6million plus people, for some time until they started winning.

We can only get 12,000 fro the Cows v Tigers,and Broncos crowds for a city of Brisbane's size is pretty ordinary.'

And the Paddle Pop Lions crowds are ordinary now.

Before we think about relocation,axeing how about getting Qld crowds up to scratch ,and giving mouth to mouth to the Titans.
And when the next TV deal comes in,how about better scheduling in Sydney and see the crowds improve.

 

[The Great Dane]

I doubt it!

In theory he's right, though a large amount of that money would already be tied up with the CRRL, our juniors programs, etc and removing that funding would be devastating to RL in the ACT and Southern NSW.

I hate these sorts of arguments, but removing that funding really would just be giving the region over to RU, the Vikings group would just throw money at the area until all the old Raiders strongholds are Brumbies strongholds.

The fact this entity was set up to benefit RL in ACT and yet is not investing its big profits in achieving this would suggest that it is failing in its remit. The raiders ion and off the field in terms of RL are anything but a well oiled machine and by any kpi RL measure are a failure at the moment.

To be fair to the the Raiders Group they're still basically single-handedly supporting RL in the region, from first grade down to under 6's, parents still have to pay for their kids insurance and uniform but that's usually it, and they get some funding from both the ACT government and the CRL, but that funding is negligible compared to the amount the Raiders group put's in. Sure they could do things differently (like give up a little more of their profit so that kids don't have to pay for their insurance, the clubs have more money for recruitment and the such) but they almost certainly do more for local RL in their area than any other NRL club.

It's really only the NRL level where they struggle to get things right.

 

[The Great Dane]

If the lessons of SL are not learnt, then you can be assured of a diminishing supporter base.Swans crowds were boosted by it and unions .

Exactly what lesson did you learn!

Sydney only lost 1 club as a result of the Superleague war (I'm not counting the Rabbits as they made their way straight back into the competition), the rest are still around in some form today and it was nobodies fault but old Sydney based dinosaurs that couldn't adapt to new circumstances that the Bears died. RL in Sydney today is fine, the mergers weren't the end of the world and they didn't cause RL to fall into decline in Sydney as many suggested that they would (including myself!).

Meanwhile in the rest of Australia 5 clubs were lost (that's without counting the multiple clubs that held the GC licence during that time, or the fact that the Auckland Warriors folded at the end of 1999, as they like the Rabbits found their way straight back), as a direct result RL went into free fall in Adelaide, Perth and on the GC. Perth and Adelaide still haven't recovered, and you could argue that the GC also hasn't regained their former glory.

We lost one of the 2 teams in Brisbane, which has probably cost the NRL an unimaginable amount of money in the time since, and though they probably weren't worth much to RL as a whole we also lost the Hunter Mariners. All those clubs were sacrificed by the NRL to save Sydney clubs or with New's help to bring the Storm into the comp.

RL in Sydney survived relatively unscathed from "the war", while RL died in Perth and Adelaide, and took a massive hit in Brisbane and on the GC, and I honestly believe that had 4 more clubs merged in Sydney we could have saved 2 more of those clubs outside of Sydney and RL in 2 more of those cites and still would have been able to introduced the Storm.

So tell me again where RL took the bigger hits because of the "war", in Sydney or everywhere else?

 

[taipan]

Exactly what lesson did you learn!

Sydney only lost 1 club as a result of the Superleague war (I'm not counting the Rabbits as they made their way straight back into the competition), the rest are still around in some form today and it was nobodies fault but old Sydney based dinosaurs that couldn't adapt to new circumstances that the Bears died. RL in Sydney today is fine, the mergers weren't the end of the world and they didn't cause RL to fall into decline in Sydney as many suggested that they would (including myself!).

Meanwhile in the rest of Australia 5 clubs were lost (that's without counting the multiple clubs that held the GC licence during that time, or the fact that the Auckland Warriors folded at the end of 1999, as they like the Rabbits found their way straight back), as a direct result RL went into free fall in Adelaide, Perth and on the GC. Perth and Adelaide still haven't recovered, and you could argue that the GC also hasn't regained their former glory.

We lost one of the 2 teams in Brisbane, which has probably cost the NRL an unimaginable amount of money in the time since, and though they probably weren't worth much to RL as a whole we also lost the Hunter Mariners. All those clubs were sacrificed by the NRL to save Sydney clubs or with New's help to bring the Storm into the comp.

RL in Sydney survived relatively unscathed from "the war", while RL died in Perth and Adelaide, and took a massive hit in Brisbane and on the GC, and I honestly believe that had 4 more clubs merged in Sydney we could have saved 2 more of those clubs outside of Sydney and RL in 2 more of those cites and still would have been able to introduced the Storm.

So tell me again where RL took the bigger hits because of the "war", in Sydney or everywhere else?

Lesson 1
4 teams in Sydney affected by mergers.Idnetity lost for the individual clubs involved.
1 team given the flick.To suggest Sydney was relatively unscathed is nonsense.
Yeah stuff any tradition.

Lesson 2
Quite a few disgruntled fans from that lot either left the code,or attend the Swans or Tahs.I have met a few of them in my work.When the Rabbits were kicked out some attended these codes'games.

Lesson 3
The code had its strength in Sydney ,and the ARL had $20m plus in the Bank.All used up in the SL war.Expansion had already happened with WA for a start.
Melbourne was in the pipeline.

Lesson 4.
I attended the initial meeting at Sharks league club ,when they committed to SL.All the glowing promises.I attended the Sharks v Canberra initial game at the SFS.I have a fair idea of what went on.I supported the Sharks during that period.


Lesson 5.
SL was not a grassroots uprising nor community desire.It was a media organisation and Porky Morgan/Ribot from the Broncos who started the ball rolling.All to set up Pay Tv in this country.A news organisation with the scruples of a ..............

Lesson 6
The SL war brought union fast forward into full professionalism.

Lesson 7
The war gave a leg up to AFL, their crowds prior were pretty ordinary in Sydney.

Lesson 8
None of the China promise were fulfilled.They stuffed the ESL at the time.And left some countries in the PI in the lurch.


NB perhaps due to the current crowd problems with Canberra ,you would not mind a merger with Illawara and become the Raiding Steelers,the fans would be in raptures.Or dare I say it relocation.

 

[flippikat]

Exactly what lesson did you learn!

<snip>

So tell me again where RL took the bigger hits because of the "war", in Sydney or everywhere else?

Great post.

In the 1990s a lot of groundwork outside of Sydney was written-off in the fallout of the war.

Sure some of the expansion clubs were hastily created in the heat of the war, but with a little tweaking of the business model they could be contributing a hell of a lot to the game if they were around today.

 

[The Great Dane]

Lesson 1
4 teams in Sydney affected by mergers.Idnetity lost for the individual clubs involved.
1 team given the flick.To suggest Sydney was relatively unscathed is nonsense.
Yeah stuff any tradition.

So basically your just spewing the same sh!t we always hear from Sydney, 'tradition this, foundation that' as if that gives your clubs some divine right to be in the national competition, even when the national has passed them by.

Whenever ideas to progress the growth of the sport nationally are suggested we hear the same stuff, and quite frankly I've got to the point where I don't really care about this sentimental 'everything was better in the good old days' attitude anymore.

F##K the good old days if it means we can move on to bigger and better things, and if that means we have to leave a few behind then why the hell not, it's not like they didn't leave clubs behind to get to where they are today (Cumberland, Glebe, the Rebels, Annandale, University, Newtown, etc, etc, etc, etc), at least we won't just cannibalize our predecessors and forget about them.

You want to watch the game at suburban grounds, great go watch the NSWcup, you want to watch small suburban Sydney clubs great go watch the Sydney compeition.

And while your doing that we'll grow the sport and competition nationally in the National Rugby League!

BTW it did survive relatively unscathed, at most only few thousand diehard fans were lost and the game in North Sydney was f##ked by old dinosaurs from, you guessed it, NS.

That's it a few thousand fans and some idiots compared to the complete grassroots framework of the sport in three cities (Perth, Adelaide and the GC), a major hit to the grassroots in another city (Brisbane) and the international game having it's spine ripped apart.

 

[flippikat]

F##K the good old days if it means we can move on to bigger and better things, and if that means we have to leave a few behind then why the hell not, it's not like they didn't leave clubs behind to get to where they are today (Cumberland, Glebe, the Rebels, Annandale, University, Newtown, etc, etc, etc, etc), at least we won't just cannibalize our predecessors and forget about them.

Exactly.
Since 1995 we've seen the creation & then elimination of the Reds, Rams and Crushers. The Mariners were also created and then sacrificed, but they were just a cynical attempt by Superleague to win an unwinnable city from the Knights - no-one mourns them.

The only Sydney team from 1995 that no longer has a presence in the NRL is Norths. Sure Wests, Balmain & St George no longer exist as stand-alone entities - but half of something is better than nothing. Just ask the NRL fans in Perth & Adelaide.

The Gold Coast have been fortunate in that they've got a team back from the grave. Although I would've added a 2nd Brisbane team back in 2007 (the commercial case made far more sense), I don't begrudge the decision.

 

[BuffaloRules]

There are many ex Balmain and Wests Magpies fans lost to the game after their clubs merged... to think that the whole supporter bases of both clubs entirely switched across to the Wests Tigers singing Kumbaye is a fantasy...

For all the continual bleating from the usual suspects, no Sydney team is relocating or getting canned for many years... enjoy!

 

[oikee]

"""So basically your just spewing the same sh!t we always hear from Sydney, 'tradition this, foundation that' as if that gives your clubs some divine right to be in the national competition, even when the national has passed them by."""


Tradition and foundation is lovely when you can gain support by driving this vehicle. Souths had to work extremely hard to gather the support they now enjoy.
The Roosters on the other hand cant even buy Support, "Sonny-bill, Jennings, Maloney and Pearce.

What the crowd on Monday night has shown is the Roosters are a band-wagon team.

The true league heartlands are out west and the Dragons. It is why the NRL did backflips to make sure the AFL did not gain a proper foothold. If they had won the west it was all over for league.
Yes we would have survived, as we do, but the AFL would then just be able to write what they liked.

The NRL has made many mistakes, going right back to the super-league war. We could have easily won the market back then, but the powers to be refused to allow the code to flourish. So we got hammered and are paying the price ever since.

We are now trying to prop up the Titans, when we should have relocated the club now.
Logan is rugby league heartland, not the Gold Coast.
trouble is we have nobody to identify these pieces of gold.

Same as we should already have 3 teams in Brisbane. We have lost hundreds of millions by the lack of games out of Suncorp each year since it was built, 2003.
So we are 10 years from wherwe we should be, and counting. Because we dont look likely while this negative TV deal is in place.

What the NRL should be doing right now is stadiums. Lobby and get them all built, even if the NRL have to fork out 100 million, just do it.
Canberra, Manly, Cowboys and a mega 50 thousand in Sydneys west.
Then when the next tv deal is up for grabs, merge, expand and give NZ and Brisbane derbies and bring in Perth.