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NRL v AFL Business Side

abc

Juniors
Messages
29
So if you read all the forum replies and indeed on the AFL forums following the expected Folau signing for GWS in the AFL, most people are completely missing the point on the business side and the wider implications across all sports. The chest beating on both sides misses exactly what is going on here and why the NRL needs to be worried not in the short term but the long term...and not just from the AFL.

Now from the AFL's perspective; their marketing plan, the changing of the rules and all outward comments since the mid 90s really and the actual expansion from the 80s is they want to be Australia's No.1 sport. In some sense this may be achieved looked at across some factors like Revenue, Attendance, etc. but it is certainly not clear cut across all major factors nor is it obviously proportional across all major and non major areas. Most threateningly for them their market position is also not so clear cut in all markets, including the southern and western markets they currently dominate, that in the longer term they could be threatened. I will come back to this.

The worrying apart of all this for RL, is that it is not the NRL or Rugby League (or Union) the AFL is worried about, it is Soccer in terms of the Long term success. Prior to Soccer their worries was also not RL but RU and Cricket.

Remember in 1975 (only 35 yrs ago), the AFL was the VFL and solely in Victoria. The NSWRL was arguably equally as strong and the SANFL, QRL and WAFL were also viable tier 1 entities. Their was no National Soccer competition and soccer was a minor sport at all levels. RU was also void of anything big and was still amateur and cricketers were underpaid prior to the Packer fueled World Series revolution. Hell the pinnacle of RL being SOO did not even exist.

Fast forward to today and the Australian Football team (i.e. Soccer) is probably the most widely followed National team and certainly contains by far collectively the highest paid athletes and widely known global and national names. The top cricketers are probably the highest domestic based sportsman in the country and with the emergence of India as a global economic power only accentuates the earning potential.

The NRL's and RL in general, greatest strength is also it biggest weakness. Even neutrals who are not RL fans can watch SOO and appreciate both the quality of the show, the passion of the event and the spectacle it has become. However evaluate this from a business perspective.

If this is the no. 1 strength, how does RL pitch this to someone who is not from NSW or QLD? How can someone who grew up elsewhere in Aus or indeed globally have that same passion as a local representing a state. Yes islander players have played for SOO teams but does Lote Taquiri ultimately feel the same about Qld that Gordon Tallis did and does. Would Gordon Tallis wear a blue shirt in any sport? Even Mat Rogers played in both shirts across RL and RU.

So if this is a given, money power of other sports, market factors and demographic changes aside, then the best RL can do for the most part, is hold ground in their current markets. This is a dangerous strategy for any business in any sector let alone a crazy competitive and ever changing one like sport which is influenced by so many other things.


Assuming the majority of the Qld and NSW sporting market is similar these are the typical categories of people;

TYPE 1:
Primary: RL and/or RU fan
Secondary: Fan of additional sports like AFL, Soccer, Motorsport etc.

TYPE 2:

Non Sports Fan

TYPE 3:
Primary: Fan of Additional Sports but not RL and/or RU

TYPE 4:

Recent Immigrant

So currently the Type 1 fan for RL will for the most part always be a RL (or RU) fan first and only follow other sports secondarily. However what of this person's children. Well given that kids are both largely influenced by their parents and their peers/pop culture, chances are a proportion of these will drift to either Type 2 or Type 3 and so it continues generationaly. This will happen naturally as people are exposed to more sports and other entertainment forms more easily via the Internet and New Media. The AFL efforts with Hunt and Folau are designed to help this but it will only be incremental in the short term as it will change few current fans from Type 1 but it is designed to appeal to Type 1's kids and Type 4 people as well as hold and grow their Type 3 base.

The AFL on top of this which has currently close to 50% of its fan base as women (which is very different to the male dominated fan base of RL) realizes that this is the untapped market of NSW and QLD where a lot of Type 2 ppl reside. Now in recent years by eliminating a lot of the on field violence, this has helped grow that demographic which has 2 benefits.

1. Increases fan base helping game sales, tv revenue and also with women being generally larger consumers increasing merchandise sales, etc.

2. Many of these women will become or are mothers and play a large role in both the sports their kids are allowed to play and because they are household financial decision maker more often these days, where money is spent

Soccer is the clear winner of Junior minds and numbers in Australia from parents being happy with the non-violent nature, the simple rules, more readily than ever being able to interact with their stars via Internet/Cable and the Live Games like A-League/ACL and Internationals. Additionally as the kids get older, the ones with talent can legitimately view a lucrative career domestically and globally which only as recently as the 90s was a pipe dream and more rare occurrence.

The AFL marketing and overall strategy is designed to counter this offense targeting the Type 2 and Type 4 fan. The Type 1 fan target ultimately is about ensuring they cover all bases and is for the longer term to get the next generations. So like I said long after Folau and Hunt are retired.

Now what is the NRL and RL in general doing. Clearly they are not as sophisticated as Soccer, the AFL or even Cricket at going after the Type 2 fan which is dominated by Women. There is very little large scale efforts to go after the reverse Type 1 fan in other states or Internationally. Even the AFL teams have academy bases in places like South Africa and NZ not to mention Ireland to try and cover this difficult base for them. As for the Type 4 fan (and their kids) who is increasing each year and most likely to call Soccer their sport of choice, there is certainly no major initiative to win these minds or the minds of their kids.

So ultimately RL in NSW and Qld is trying to hold on to those Type 1 fans. Yes they will get incremental growth from other types but that will be minute compared to the fans being lost over the next 35 years and beyond to AFL, Soccer, Cricket, Numerous Other Sports like even UFC, Other Entertainment Forms.

So just like 1975 is unrecognizable to 2010, 2045 (quite possibly a generation after a World Cup is in Aus in 2022 and the two expansion AFL teams will be 30 yrs into their history) will be completely different to now. China will rival (if not surpass) the US as an economic power in 2045 and India not far behind. In 1975 this was unthinkable to most.

At that point where will RL be? And will SOO be even here b/c 35 yrs ago the pinnacle of the sport was non existent so who is to say 35 yrs from today it will be.

As I said behind all the chest beating on all forums, this is the business of sport due to the market and demographic changes. The NFL invests heavily in Europe (and even has regular season games in London), the NBA spends huge money in Asia as does Fifa and the ICC knows that India is the key to its global business future.

So if you are 40 yrs old now with a 10 yr old child and you would like that child to be primarily a RL fan at your age, you should be very worried about what RL is doing or really NOT doing as a business.
 
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Lockyer4President!

First Grade
Messages
7,975
AFL has been in QLD and NSW for over a century. They've had teams in Sydney and Brisbane for 30 years yet they still are a minor sport with the majority of their support coming from interstate immigrants.

All that the two new teams will do is split the current fanbases, attract embarrassing crowds/membership numbers and generally be a massive drain on the other clubs (many of which would be dead if it wasn't for AFL handouts as it is...)

What the AFL is doing is similar to what the NHL did in North America in the 90's when they expanded into the South and West of the USA.
 

ParraEelsNRL

Referee
Messages
27,712
abc said:
There is very little large scale efforts to go after the reverse Type 1 fan in other states or Internationally. Even the AFL teams have academy bases in places like South Africa and NZ not to mention Ireland to try and cover this difficult base for them

:lol::lol::lol:

Yeah the AFL might have these so called academy's in these places you boofhead, but Rugby League has actual comps in each of them.

You say blah blah blah women blah blah blah, well mate, 4.2 million peak for SOO last week suggests plenty of women watched, care to tell me what other sport has got close to that this year?

I also like it how you lump RL in with RU for fans, RU has it's own small fan base, RL has its own fan base that is much much bigger, if RL and RU shared a heap of fans like you think they do, Union would be a hellava lot stronger out here than it is in regards to playing numbers, spectators at games and TV ratings.

Look, I don't care if this f&^kwit mormon has gone to Fumbleball, it will backfire either way.

He'll either make it and make the AFL game look like a joke that any person with any skill at all can master or he'll fail and play reserves which will make the AFL look stupid for wasting money on untried people when they could invest in grassroots.

Plus having his ugly mug shoved down our throats 24/7 on TV isn't going to help the AFL at all, it'll cause even more resentment to the code than it already has.

It's going to backfire.

Dumb move by fumbleball and makes them look desperate.

Answer this, what happens to these two new sides if the AFL doesn't get its big pay day that it's banking on?

We all know Packer helped them last time and since then the ratings for AFL have been falling. Gallop gave 9 the rights for f**k all last time, what happens if 7/10 and 9 have to fight it out to get RL this time?

What happens to the AFL's two new teams?

Nothing is guaranteed besides death and taxes, Vlad the delusional from Victorianland is playing a very dangerous game atm and could actually be putting the AFL in a very bad situation.

RL has lived off scraps for the last 15 years, the game is used to it, can the AFL survive with its bigger rosters and extra teams that will need to be pumped up for decades on top of the ons needing handouts yearly now?
 

MsStorm

Bench
Messages
2,714
abc made a great point about targeting/attracting women towards rugby league...this has been done very well by the afl.and just token gestures here and there by the nrl.

Whether some of you guys like the Melbourne Storm or not, at least the female/male ratio attendance at games is close to 45/55 split...and that's what all nrl clubs should be looking at.
 

Nightward

Juniors
Messages
874
Gallop did not "give" the rights to Nine cheaply. Kerry Packer was (much as I may disdain him for what I am about to say) an excellent, very shrewd businessman.

The NRL and AFL rights were up for bids, and at the time Channel 9 controlled virtually every other sports broadcast rights worth having. What Packer decided was that he really wanted the NRL to stay with him, and that he would be happy to pick off AFL as well.

So he offered a massive amount of money for the AFL rights. Channels 7 and 10 had to go in together to beat his deal, which utterly exhausted their ability to bid against Channel 9 for the NRL.

Channel 9 was then bidding on its lonesome for the sport it really wanted to keep, resulting in it being able to secure the rights for a song.

Now, that right there is some pretty unpeasant tactics. But there is a reason Packer was a billionaire and the rest of us buy lotto tickets.

This time around... who knows? Channels 7 and 10 will be unwilling to let go of the rights to AFL, but they won't be paying much more than they already are. So the question is whether or not the NRL can extort (if you will) a reasonable deal from Channel 9.
 

pcpp

Juniors
Messages
2,266
The publicity generated by this is not a one way street.

The NRL gets way more coverage that it usually does in the "AFL" states when news and speculation of a signing like this comes up. Perfect time for some agressive, damaging soundbites.

The NRL should be publically saying that a league player, who has never player a game of AFL, is earning more than every single other AFL player in the country. Promote RL players as superior athletes. And say to become a top paid sports star in this country - you need to play rugby league. Instead the NRL looks weak by saying "the sky's not falling in".

I think the cutie signing is 10 times more effective than this signing. cutie has a connection to QLD, Folau will probably be viewed as a traitor to the people of NSW (i'm sure the AFL will be trying to pump up the fact that he was born in NSW).

I don't blame Folau for taking the money - if the $4.2 million over 3 years is correct, that is pretty much a million dollars more a season than he would earn at the Broncos. Every single NRL/AFL/Union/A-League player would jump to any other sport for $1M more a season.
 

1 Eyed TEZZA

Coach
Messages
12,420
True, it does help League in AFL territory aswell.

AFL fan: Hey bro, stop sucking for a minute. It looks like the AFL are getting more NRL players to play the game.

Other AFL fan: Wow, is he hot?

AFL fan: I dunno, but it seems that the NRL has lots of talent! But nothing like your tounge, hehe.
 
Messages
1,520
So if you read all the forum replies and indeed on the AFL forums following the expected Folau signing for GWS in the AFL, most people are completely missing the point on the business side and the wider implications across all sports. The chest beating on both sides misses exactly what is going on here and why the NRL needs to be worried not in the short term but the long term...and not just from the AFL.

Now from the AFL's perspective; their marketing plan, the changing of the rules and all outward comments since the mid 90s really and the actual expansion from the 80s is they want to be Australia's No.1 sport. In some sense this may be achieved looked at across some factors like Revenue, Attendance, etc. but it is certainly not clear cut across all major factors nor is it obviously proportional across all major and non major areas. Most threateningly for them their market position is also not so clear cut in all markets, including the southern and western markets they currently dominate, that in the longer term they could be threatened. I will come back to this.

The worrying apart of all this for RL, is that it is not the NRL or Rugby League (or Union) the AFL is worried about, it is Soccer in terms of the Long term success. Prior to Soccer their worries was also not RL but RU and Cricket.

Remember in 1975 (only 35 yrs ago), the AFL was the VFL and solely in Victoria. The NSWRL was arguably equally as strong and the SANFL, QRL and WAFL were also viable tier 1 entities. Their was no National Soccer competition and soccer was a minor sport at all levels. RU was also void of anything big and was still amateur and cricketers were underpaid prior to the Packer fueled World Series revolution. Hell the pinnacle of RL being SOO did not even exist.

Fast forward to today and the Australian Football team (i.e. Soccer) is probably the most widely followed National team and certainly contains by far collectively the highest paid athletes and widely known global and national names. The top cricketers are probably the highest domestic based sportsman in the country and with the emergence of India as a global economic power only accentuates the earning potential.

The NRL's and RL in general, greatest strength is also it biggest weakness. Even neutrals who are not RL fans can watch SOO and appreciate both the quality of the show, the passion of the event and the spectacle it has become. However evaluate this from a business perspective.

If this is the no. 1 strength, how does RL pitch this to someone who is not from NSW or QLD? How can someone who grew up elsewhere in Aus or indeed globally have that same passion as a local representing a state. Yes islander players have played for SOO teams but does Lote Taquiri ultimately feel the same about Qld that Gordon Tallis did and does. Would Gordon Tallis wear a blue shirt in any sport? Even Mat Rogers played in both shirts across RL and RU.

So if this is a given, money power of other sports, market factors and demographic changes aside, then the best RL can do for the most part, is hold ground in their current markets. This is a dangerous strategy for any business in any sector let alone a crazy competitive and ever changing one like sport which is influenced by so many other things.


Assuming the majority of the Qld and NSW sporting market is similar these are the typical categories of people;

TYPE 1:
Primary: RL and/or RU fan
Secondary: Fan of additional sports like AFL, Soccer, Motorsport etc.

TYPE 2:

Non Sports Fan

TYPE 3:
Primary: Fan of Additional Sports but not RL and/or RU

TYPE 4:

Recent Immigrant

So currently the Type 1 fan for RL will for the most part always be a RL (or RU) fan first and only follow other sports secondarily. However what of this person's children. Well given that kids are both largely influenced by their parents and their peers/pop culture, chances are a proportion of these will drift to either Type 2 or Type 3 and so it continues generationaly. This will happen naturally as people are exposed to more sports and other entertainment forms more easily via the Internet and New Media. The AFL efforts with Hunt and Folau are designed to help this but it will only be incremental in the short term as it will change few current fans from Type 1 but it is designed to appeal to Type 1's kids and Type 4 people as well as hold and grow their Type 3 base.

The AFL on top of this which has currently close to 50% of its fan base as women (which is very different to the male dominated fan base of RL) realizes that this is the untapped market of NSW and QLD where a lot of Type 2 ppl reside. Now in recent years by eliminating a lot of the on field violence, this has helped grow that demographic which has 2 benefits.

1. Increases fan base helping game sales, tv revenue and also with women being generally larger consumers increasing merchandise sales, etc.

2. Many of these women will become or are mothers and play a large role in both the sports their kids are allowed to play and because they are household financial decision maker more often these days, where money is spent

Soccer is the clear winner of Junior minds and numbers in Australia from parents being happy with the non-violent nature, the simple rules, more readily than ever being able to interact with their stars via Internet/Cable and the Live Games like A-League/ACL and Internationals. Additionally as the kids get older, the ones with talent can legitimately view a lucrative career domestically and globally which only as recently as the 90s was a pipe dream and more rare occurrence.

The AFL marketing and overall strategy is designed to counter this offense targeting the Type 2 and Type 4 fan. The Type 1 fan target ultimately is about ensuring they cover all bases and is for the longer term to get the next generations. So like I said long after Folau and Hunt are retired.

Now what is the NRL and RL in general doing. Clearly they are not as sophisticated as Soccer, the AFL or even Cricket at going after the Type 2 fan which is dominated by Women. There is very little large scale efforts to go after the reverse Type 1 fan in other states or Internationally. Even the AFL teams have academy bases in places like South Africa and NZ not to mention Ireland to try and cover this difficult base for them. As for the Type 4 fan (and their kids) who is increasing each year and most likely to call Soccer their sport of choice, there is certainly no major initiative to win these minds or the minds of their kids.

So ultimately RL in NSW and Qld is trying to hold on to those Type 1 fans. Yes they will get incremental growth from other types but that will be minute compared to the fans being lost over the next 35 years and beyond to AFL, Soccer, Cricket, Numerous Other Sports like even UFC, Other Entertainment Forms.

So just like 1975 is unrecognizable to 2010, 2045 (quite possibly a generation after a World Cup is in Aus in 2022 and the two expansion AFL teams will be 30 yrs into their history) will be completely different to now. China will rival (if not surpass) the US as an economic power in 2045 and India not far behind. In 1975 this was unthinkable to most.

At that point where will RL be? And will SOO be even here b/c 35 yrs ago the pinnacle of the sport was non existent so who is to say 35 yrs from today it will be.

As I said behind all the chest beating on all forums, this is the business of sport due to the market and demographic changes. The NFL invests heavily in Europe (and even has regular season games in London), the NBA spends huge money in Asia as does Fifa and the ICC knows that India is the key to its global business future.

So if you are 40 yrs old now with a 10 yr old child and you would like that child to be primarily a RL fan at your age, you should be very worried about what RL is doing or really NOT doing as a business.


abc, good post,

but this situation has happened before. with RU

the whol falou thing, and others like it, this only puts the afl in front of people long enough for them to ask the question "well here is afl, people, do you like it?"

people look at it, and go nope for the most part.

at my work, across all our places, I can say to right now, that after 10 years of "effort" it is across the board NRL enjoyed by 90%, afl 15% Union 10%.

thats NOT a total meant to equal 100....obviously some people follow more than one game.

I do agree about the kids, but based off what I say above, I feel the situation will be changed very little for them....i.e soccer will always be seen as first choice.


and about the different futures, well long term I see BIG TROUBLE for the game, especially with origin as its pinnacle.

Must change, must get new admin, new direction. having clear goals is a big one, and moving toward them is another.


someone said to me once: success is not an accident.
 

abc

Juniors
Messages
29
To those criticizing AFL as a sport, talking about Hunt and Folau being good/irrelevant and who has better ratings now are missing the point. The AFL has realized their battle is both against Soccer and other forms of entertainment. They are also fighting to be relevant as well and thus trying everything b/c they are far bigger money interests than them competing for the public's entertainment dollar.

As much as the the hardcore fans of all codes don't want to hear, it is not about which sport is "better" b/c that is relative. It is about which is marketed the best, to the widest group of people and is sustainable as a business.

Australia is only a country of 22 million people and because sport is becoming more not less global, it is not just a matter of one Australian sporting code vs. another. They all could be potentially extinct or demoted to marginal status in 50 years time b/c the competition is from everywhere.

These are society wide changes happening at a much greater level than the sporting codes themselves. The sporting codes are ultimately businesses that have to recognize this and adapt.

The problem with the RL administration is they are making decisions as if the market today will be the same in 2020 and 2050. Australia is predicted to be 40% Asian in terms of ethnicity in 2050. How many Asian fans, Players and Major Administrators have Asian background in RL? Similarly as I said with women, in 1970 they were very much the minority being the primary decision maker with money for families. Now they are and given they are graduating with degrees at a far higher rate than males, their power is only going to grow. Alienating or not attracting more people from this sector is business suicide for any type of business.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
AFL has been in QLD and NSW for over a century. They've had teams in Sydney and Brisbane for 30 years yet they still are a minor sport with the majority of their support coming from interstate immigrants.

All that the two new teams will do is split the current fanbases, attract embarrassing crowds/membership numbers and generally be a massive drain on the other clubs (many of which would be dead if it wasn't for AFL handouts as it is...)

What the AFL is doing is similar to what the NHL did in North America in the 90's when they expanded into the South and West of the USA.

AFL have been targeting Liverpool for about ten years now, and failing.

I have kids in three different schools in the Liverpool area. They are often forced to play Auskick (AFL) yet virtually all of the students and even teachers are NRL fans, with events like jersey day where students and teachers wear their favourite NRL team jersey for the day.

I don't see how the GWS will work. It will cost the AFL (and the ACT government) millions.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
Gallop did not "give" the rights to Nine cheaply. Kerry Packer was (much as I may disdain him for what I am about to say) an excellent, very shrewd businessman.

The NRL and AFL rights were up for bids, and at the time Channel 9 controlled virtually every other sports broadcast rights worth having. What Packer decided was that he really wanted the NRL to stay with him, and that he would be happy to pick off AFL as well.

So he offered a massive amount of money for the AFL rights. Channels 7 and 10 had to go in together to beat his deal, which utterly exhausted their ability to bid against Channel 9 for the NRL.

Channel 9 was then bidding on its lonesome for the sport it really wanted to keep, resulting in it being able to secure the rights for a song.

Now, that right there is some pretty unpeasant tactics. But there is a reason Packer was a billionaire and the rest of us buy lotto tickets.

This time around... who knows? Channels 7 and 10 will be unwilling to let go of the rights to AFL, but they won't be paying much more than they already are. So the question is whether or not the NRL can extort (if you will) a reasonable deal from Channel 9.

7 and 10 now have digital channels and won't be sitting on their hands while NRL is sold off cheaply to 9.

Also I read last week that 9 in Melbourne are not really interested in the AFL rights.
 
Last edited:

gUt

Coach
Messages
16,935
Also I read last week that 9 in Melbourne are not really interested in the AFL rights.

I heard this too. They are happy with hosting the Footy Show and they seem to regard this as enough of a presence in AFL Melbourne. Says something for the "sport" when a broadcaster regards its variety show based on the game as more entertaining than the game itself.
 

Brutus

Referee
Messages
26,348
Now, that right there is some pretty unpeasant tactics. But there is a reason Packer was a billionaire and the rest of us buy lotto tickets.

Ever heard of Frank Packer?

I too may be a billionaire with a father like him.
 

Drew-Sta

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
24,740
The valid point that ABC is trying to raise is the 'business' of sport is where the future of the NRL lies.

If the game is to continue, the business must succeed. No matter how sh*t the AFL is, how crap a game it is, how awful it is - If it is the only sport on TV then people will watch it. If it is the only winter sport in school, it will be played. If it is the only sport being played at a national level, it will be sponsored. This is what they're aiming for.

The NRL needs to recognise this. We have a sport that is better to play than AFL, better to watch and inherently is a better 'product'. The Independent Commission needs to be brought in so the NRL can have a good hard look at what is going on and make some progressive changes. If 100 kids are given the opportunity to play AFL in Parramatta, then some are going to take it. Maybe only 4 or 5, but it's still more than I want playing the game a heartland of Sydney Rugby League.

The NRL needs to start addressing major issues in the sport. Yes, who cares if Israelite and K.Hunt sell their soul from a player point of view - They're pricks and they aren't worth the trouble. But from a marketing and brand point of view - It is essentially brand building and publicity driving. The more articles the AFL have, the more people will read about the AFL and potentially watch a game - Exactly what they want.

Whilst I despise the capitalism in the game today, there needs to be some smart cookies at the top protecting our interests and ensuring we're producing the best Rugby League possible and doing so at a national level.

The sooner we get an independent commission acting in the best interests of the game, the sooner we will see Rugby League really take off.
 

Brutus

Referee
Messages
26,348
The valid point that ABC is trying to raise is the 'business' of sport is where the future of the NRL lies.

If the game is to continue, the business must succeed.

But has the business of rugby league been the main priority for the NRL over the past decade?
 

Nightward

Juniors
Messages
874
Ever heard of Frank Packer?

I too may be a billionaire with a father like him.

Yes. But Kerry expanded his father's empire. He had a place to start, it is true, but he was very, very good at his job.
 

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