NRL's growth mindset points to 18th team. And it ain't Perth.

[colly]

It seems like an odd statement given the NZRL boss, only the other week on the Chasing Kangaroos podcast, acknowledged that NZ probably isn't ready for another professional team just yet:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0A...i=ZFpFB8hvRkGtWnpr5VlyRg&utm_source=copy-link

From my armchair here in Western Sydney, it seems that the annual grant that would be allocated to NZ#18 could be better used propping-up a small-but-strong second tier professional/semi-professional NZ league ($13 ÷ 6 NZRL teams [3 x Auckland + Wellington + Christchurch + Dunedin]).

Very good magpie man, I have thoughts like that regarding the 17th Team- create a semi pro comp in (Bris) QLD with a final 8 pathway for the winner. So all teams Redcliffe, Easts ect get a grant of $480,000 for 24 players at 20k per year. Include the QLD NRL teams (reserves) in comp also. This comp plays , say 4 games per year against NRL teams. So you create new games so Brisbane can finally watch action on Friday night, Saturday and Sunday. Di this for NSW country and Sydney teams like Wenty, Old bears, North Sydney, Newton etc, with a MAX Sydney NRL teams of say 3. Start small maybe you can increase when funds allow. So for 10m (salary cap) you can have two comp extra ( Briz/QLD and NSW country/Old sydney teams like bears with a pathway to finals (for the winner) creating content whereby each NRL team (16) play at least 1 game against these newly created comps.
Double headers extra content, comps for up too 300 semi professional Rugby League players. Whats not to like.
It all goes down to having strict salary caps/players caps ( 20k is for ALL players.. It might seem low ( for players ) 20k for 7 months , but it's a free world , if you don't want to, don't. This could be a pathway to the NRL. Anyway the only way you can make this work would be under such financial player payments. If successful maybe increase to 25k AND then add teams from say Perth, NZ and the Pacific. Start small the add these teams when you lock extra media contracts , from say Ch 10. For twenty million p/a ten can have these comps with one game aginst a NRL team. It almost pays for itself then. The extra buzz, especially around Brisbane would also help in ratings and crowds.

 

[Jamberoo]

At least 3 regular tenants (assuming an NRL team is launched there), certainly other renters (concerts, conferences, etc), retail and other facilities could be built into it, if you did it right you'd own the parking space, etc, etc. In the right city under the right circumstances owning a stadium can be very profitable.

In a place like Wellington if the NRL built a rectangular stadium they'd own the only rectangular stadium in the city big enough to host pro-sports, and it'd be the most modern stadium in the city. Assuming that their rent was competitive with the Cake Tin (and by rights it should be, because it'd be smaller and maintenance on rectangular stadiums is less expensive than ovals in general), their competitors would be paying them to use it and it'd pay it's self off relatively quickly (probably within a decade or two assuming that you did it right).

Basically, if the NRL were going to invest in a stadium (which has been talked about before) Wellington would be a pretty good place to build it.

Ok. Let’s call it $250m by the time you buy the land.
And say you make $200k from each game/concert ($10 per person probably generous but let’s go with it). 20 - 25 of those. And a conference a week for $5k profit (very generous in a city of 400k). That totals around $5m profit per year. Not even enough to cover interest costs, maintenance and management.
It would be the end of the NRL. Pass.

 

[flippikat]

It seems like an odd statement given the NZRL boss, only the other week on the Chasing Kangaroos podcast, acknowledged that NZ probably isn't ready for another professional team just yet:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0A...i=ZFpFB8hvRkGtWnpr5VlyRg&utm_source=copy-link

.

To add to that, there's this article on one of the big NZ news sites.

It looks like the NZRL has been completely blindsided by this talk of a 2nd NZ team.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/...up-second-nrl-team-in-new-zealand-too-quickly

 

[Jamberoo]

Very good magpie man, I have thoughts like that regarding the 17th Team- create a semi pro comp in (Bris) QLD with a final 8 pathway for the winner. So all teams Redcliffe, Easts ect get a grant of $480,00 for 24 players at 20k per year. Include the QLD NRL teams (reserves) in comp also. This comp plays , say 4 games per year against NRL teams. So you create new games so Brisbane can finally watch action on Friday night, Saturday and Sunday. Di this for NSW country and Sydney teams like Wenty, Old bears, North Sydney, Newton etc, with a MAX Sydney NRL teams of say 3. Start small maybe you can increase when funds allow. So for 10m (salary cap) you can have two comp extra ( Briz/QLD and NSW country/Old sydney teams like bears with a pathway to finals (for the winner) creating content whereby each NRL team (16) play at least 1 game against these newly created comps.
Double headers extra content, comps for up too 300 semi professional Rugby League players. Whats not to like.
It all goes down to having strict salary caps/players caps ( 20k is for ALL players.. It might seem low ( for players ) 20k for 7 months , but it's a free world , if you don't want to, don't. This could be a pathway to the NRL. Anyway the only way you can make this work would be under such financial player payments. If successful maybe increase to 25k AND then add teams from say Perth, NZ and the Pacific. Start small the add these teams when you lock extra media contracts , from say Ch 10. For twenty million p/a ten can have these comps with one game aginst a NRL team. It almost pays for itself then. The extra buzz, especially around Brisbane would also help in ratings and crowds.

You want NRL first grade teams to play against guys not good enough to even get on an NRL roster of 30?
The ideas on this thread are getting stranger by the day.

 

[colly]

You want NRL first grade teams to play against guys not good enough to even get on an NRL roster of 30?
The ideas on this thread are getting stranger by the day.

No, they mostly play amongst their own comp, however one game will be between NRL teams and this newly created comp(s). In world cup years small teams like scotland/cananda play big nations teams, you have this ( one game) per team because then you provide pathways , have marketable content to sell to media buyers, increase the reach of ruby League, as well as providing a semi/job? for over 300 men/Rugby league players. One crossover (created comps) game per round combined with say Redcliffe V Easts would make great entertainment for Brisbane on Saturday or Sunday afternoon, without worrying about legal NRL matters and importantly CONTENT that can be sold to media buyers.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Like it or love it, at least we are starting to see some strategy and talk of the future and it seems consistent (ok, at the moment it's words only):

• Focus on areas where the game has strength (Brisbane and NZ)
• Growth into areas that can help the player pool (Brisbane and NZ)
• Focus on rivalries (Brisbane derby / NZ derby)

I love the idea of Perth but I'm certainly not unhappy if we end up with Brisbane 2 and NZ 2

 

[The Great Dane]

Ok. Let’s call it $250m by the time you buy the land.
And say you make $200k from each game/concert ($10 per person probably generous but let’s go with it). 20 - 25 of those. And a conference a week for $5k profit (very generous in a city of 400k). That totals around $5m profit per year. Not even enough to cover interest costs, maintenance and management.
It would be the end of the NRL. Pass.

Ahh, the "I pulled a bunch of numbers out of my arse, therefore I'm right argument".

Any numbers are meaningless unless a business study is taken on the project, otherwise they are literally just made up.

You're ignoring the potential of a developer getting involved, which going by what the AFL was able to source for a potential upgrade to Manuka can be huge (BTW Manuka has no regular tenants from a pro-sport). You're also ignoring potential government subsidies and a bunch of other commercial opportunities as well.

You are also forgetting that the whole reason that the NRL was talking about owning a stadium was simply to have a major asset that they could put up against loans where needed, like the AFL used Marvel for last year when they desperately needed a loan. Speaking of Marvel, most people would argue that the AFL's involvement in Docklands was a very good investment (at least pre Covid), and there's no reason why a stadium couldn't be a good investment for the NRL as well if they went about it the right way.

 

[The Great Dane]

Like it or love it, at least we are starting to see some strategy and talk of the future and it seems consistent (ok, at the moment it's words only):

• Focus on areas where the game has strength (Brisbane and NZ)
• Growth into areas that can help the player pool (Brisbane and NZ)
• Focus on rivalries (Brisbane derby / NZ derby)

I love the idea of Perth but I'm certainly not unhappy if we end up with Brisbane 2 and NZ 2

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but to be fair no strategy is definitely better than a bad strategy in my experience.

 

[Jamberoo]

Ahh, the "I pulled a bunch of numbers out of my arse, therefore I'm right argument".

Any numbers are meaningless unless a business study is taken on the project, otherwise they are literally just made up.

You're ignoring the potential of a developer getting involved, which going by what the AFL was able to source for a potential upgrade to Manuka can be huge (BTW Manuka has no regular tenants from a pro-sport). You're also ignoring potential government subsidies and a bunch of other commercial opportunities as well.

You are also forgetting that the whole reason that the NRL was talking about owning a stadium was simply to have a major asset that they could put up against loans where needed, like the AFL used Marvel for last year when they desperately needed a loan. Speaking of Marvel, most people would argue that the AFL's involvement in Docklands was a very good investment (at least pre Covid), and there's no reason why a stadium couldn't be a good investment for the NRL as well if they went about it the right way.

1. The government is not going to subsidise a stadium that competes with their own stadium.
2. Manuka was never a realistic proposal. Did not even get close.
3. The AFL got lucky with Docklands. They put in extra at the beginning to make it oval (was supposed to be rectangular) and part of the deal with that they got it for nothing after 25 years. Poor negotiating by the then Vic govt. Kennett was keen to sell off as many state assets as possible.
4. Ny numbers were optimistic. There is no way the NRL clubs would allow $250m (or $15m each) to build a stadium in another country. It makes no sense.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Like it or love it, at least we are starting to see some strategy and talk of the future and it seems consistent (ok, at the moment it's words only):

Here here.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

I like the idea of a second NZ team and it makes a lot of sense but I feel the Warriors need to be consistently making finals and should probably have a premiership under their belts first. They need that level of success that really solidifies a fanbase. Having 2 NZ teams that are forever underachievers and can't build a winning culture probably won't be good for the game over there.

Yep I agree with pretty much all of this. The success of the Warriors - yes it's an absolute must for mine. (something I'd proposed in the Adelaide thread).

Although as opposed to out and out "premierships" I'd much more want to see consistently large / sell out crowds at Mt Smart, or wherever they play home games (if somewhere new like Eden Park etc, unlikely as that might be). Of course premierships and on-field success will bring bigger crowds. Like the Chicken/Egg theory perhaps.

I've got rellies in Auckland, and while guys like @flippikat will have a far better understanding than me, my experience is that NZ has plenty of "passive" warriors fans - who take an interest in how they are going, but they don't go to the games.

If they can turn that around then the fan base is indeed there to pack out grounds - it needs converting, and maintaining. Then i think the case for a 2nd NZ team is far more worthy.

Like Pulp Fiction, I wouldn't be surprised if PVL (Marcellus Wallace) has called Gus Gould ("The Wolf") in to fix up the mess. And make it viable.

 

[flippikat]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but to be fair no strategy is definitely better than a bad strategy in my experience.

Good comment.

Case in point: Super Rugby.
Great example of how to really screw up expansion.

 

[flippikat]

I've got rellies in Auckland, and while guys like @flippikat will have a far better understanding than me, my experience is that NZ has plenty of "passive" warriors fans - who take an interest in how they are going, but they don't go to the games.

If they can turn that around then the fan base is indeed there to pack out grounds - it needs converting, and maintaining. Then i think the case for a 2nd NZ team is far more worthy.

Like Pulp Fiction, I wouldn't be surprised if PVL (Marcellus Wallace) has called Gus Gould ("The Wolf") in to fix up the mess. And make it viable.

Here in Wellington I think there's a latent supporter base for top-level rugby league.. not necessarily the Warriors though.

The key thing is that a fair number of people who follow the NRL here (whether casually or religiously) found a team to cheer for in the early 1990s, before Sky launched - when TVNZ's TV2 showed NSWRL games on Free To Air. Others found teams after that, but you still see a lot of people from that era who found their team then.

Some background: The buzz of "Aussie League on 2" in the early '90s was quite something, and it was fortunate timing given rugby was on a bit of a slide in the early 1990s - the game was still amateur, the All Blacks were on the decline (capped off by the 1991 World Cup disappointment), and Auckland rugby union dominated the domestic game so much that it was starting to turn fans off.

Some of those fans didn't just jump to the Warriors in 1995, and you still have plenty of Manly, Brisbane, Canberra etc fans here Usually it's fans of early '90s glamour clubs, especially amongst those in their 40s or 50s who were young in that era.

If a new team WAS started in Wellington there'll probably be a mix of NRL fans who switch to the local team and those who stay loyal to their existing team.. so you'd want to bring in some casual fans to make up for those who hold firm to their existing allegiance.

That comment about Phil Gound is an intreguing theory.. and something I wouldn't put past V'Landys. If a strategically valuable team in the competition isn't being as successful as it could/should - and has woefully underperformed, I can certainly see him being hands-on about it. Even if it's as a string-pulling puppetmaster and not direct action.

 

[ash the bash]

Interesting discussions, like the topic as I love NZ as a country.

Funny enough, had a chat to a client/mate yesterday. Now he runs a fairly substantial business based from Timaru (South of Christchurch). He is a massive league fan, reason why we ended up becoming great mates. Was a guest of his companies box on a couple of Auckland 9's. Anyhow asked him about the potential of a second NZ team. His answer is pretty clear not a chance in hell. Unless they had a Owen Glenn type that would bank roll it. Canterbury and the Highlanders are always under the pump for sponsors and its union heartland. It's a very small economy as far as South Island goes.

Good podcast with NZRL CEO he mentions that he does not think a second team is feasible at present. However did mention points he see's if they were to go ahead.
A) It would have to be based outside of Auckland.
B) He suggested being based in Wellington. Personally would rather Christchurch being the base of the team.

 

[MugaB]

I predicted this, when phil gould was touted to created pathways there in NZ,
I could just see the mindset of the ARLC, not just from Goulds comments of "the warriors should be a powerhouse" when he was getting cozy with PVL, and news of Brisbane bids, i just new NZ or more specifically Auckland would be the next expansion, guaranteed the NRL are happy to fund a team that exists in a heartland market that already exists, if there was no objection to "over saturation in sydney" or "too many sydney teams"
Norths would be back a decade ago in at Gosford, the NRL pay the wage, its of course not viable long term for the stand alone club, but it's whats been happening with the Broadcast money.

There could be a team in Broome, and it would be as viable as Gold Coast was when they started, because the NRL 1st grade wage is paid for. Imagine what a 2nd brisbane team and 2nd Nz team wil do in their own respective areas, exactly what it does for Adelaide and Perth in the ALF.

 

[flippikat]

The Warriors are VERY fortunate to have a global corporate (Vodafone) sponsoring them. I imagine that a 2nd NZ team will have to shoot pretty high for a major sponsor as well, to maybe offset a smaller potential supporter base than Aussie options like Perth or Adelaide.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Interesting discussions, like the topic as I love NZ as a country.

Same here.

A bit of a detour from the topic in this post. But...

My advice to everyone here, no matter what your taste, likes, dislikes etc..

If you have the international travel bug, and when travel restrictions aren't a thing any more... Absolutely positively I can't recommend NZ enough to go visit. If you haven't been before (as Molly Meldrum would say) do yourself a favour. Amongst many things, I reckon for scenery it's the best country I've ever been to on the planet - Has Australian covered hands-down.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Anyway back on topic a bit better

Amongst my multiple trips, I've been to the Nines tournament twice. It was a brilliant event - the first time it was a pretty much sold out and the atmosphere was awesome.. I really and truly thought that RL in NZ was (finally) realising what it could be. Eden Park (great stadium - apart from only selling "Haagen" beer in plastic bottles, yuck), big crowds, great entertainment on the field....

The second time was the last they held - by which stage pretty much all teams took out their star players. Clubs were taking the piss by that stage - although no doubt protecting players from injury (the year before Lachlan Coote got a season-ending injury at the nines). It was still pretty big but not as previously, and the NRL took the circus out of town.

I reckon that a Magic round in Eden Park would be brilliant. Not to replace Brisbane's. But another one through the regular season. Indeed as @flippikat mentioned earlier - there is surprisingly support for a number of NRL clubs over there in pockets.

If they are serious about NZ - take a flagship NRL event there. They are keeping Origin in Australia (timezones differences are quite unfriendly, especially for weekdays), so take something else there. If not a "serious" nines tournament - Magic Round @ Eden Park would be an absolute winner in my opinion.

 

[Perth Red]

Ok. Let’s call it $250m by the time you buy the land.
And say you make $200k from each game/concert ($10 per person probably generous but let’s go with it). 20 - 25 of those. And a conference a week for $5k profit (very generous in a city of 400k). That totals around $5m profit per year. Not even enough to cover interest costs, maintenance and management.
It would be the end of the NRL. Pass.

value is in the land gifted for the project. Afl bought docklands stadium but what they really want is the land value on their asset list. Paid $200mill for it, estimated to be worth $1billion in land value alone.
So nrl fronts up cost of stadium and govt grants the land title to the nrl. Nrl has a very hefty asset sat on its books which helps with credit rating when they want finance for other projects, that’s how smart companies work. I agi e of the nrl had the money to build the Adelaide river stadium if as govt gave them Ownership, or a perth stadium next to Optus or got ownership of brookvale oval etc.

a well run multi tenant stadium can make a profit, buts its the value on the books that is the real win.

 

[mongoose]

Same here.

A bit of a detour from the topic in this post. But...

My advice to everyone here, no matter what your taste, likes, dislikes etc..

If you have the international travel bug, and when travel restrictions aren't a thing any more... Absolutely positively I can't recommend NZ enough to go visit. If you haven't been before (as Molly Meldrum would say) do yourself a favour. Amongst many things, I reckon for scenery it's the best country I've ever been to on the planet - Has Australian covered hands-down.

South island especially. Incredible lakes, mountains and of course milford sounds