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NRL's growth mindset points to 18th team. And it ain't Perth.

MugaB

Coach
Messages
12,146
Seems its not so much the amount of talent to spread but rather that some clubs seem to have much more success in getting the very talented. Maybe the clubs who don't have such luck recruiting or developing that level of talent need to take a look in the mirror rather than blaming a lack of talent? I mean Storm built arguably the greatest spine of all time, some said when it was gone they would be down at the bottom. Instead it seems they have replaced that GOAT spine with three outstanding youngsters and a journeyman they've turned into a star, signs are they could go on to emulate the GOAT.

That's not to say we shouldn't be concerned about a drop in grassroots number, if indeed there is a significant drop, which we dont know.

Player depth is a myth, quality is a critic often open to being bais towards certain clubs, look at the tigers win last sunday, absolutely terrible game, but it was edge of your seat back and forth fun, and frustration, i wouldn't call that team as having great quality, but then there's daine Laurie, and zac Cini in that same team that stand out as quality footballers, you put these kids in a Melbourne, Roosters or Penrith team and they are probably run of the mill wingers.
The real issue isn't quality talent or amount of players, depth is everywhere, its 2 things, good scouts for these clubs, and good coaches.
The NRL needs more Coaches, quality ones like Bennett, like Bellamy, more experienced solid coaches, they talented players flock to good coaches for unders, they know that they'll win more games in a super club under a super coach, not a struggling one, where the coach is always looking for answers or more effort.

If bennett can coach till he is 70+
there should be coaches that were back in the 90s that should still be able to coach now, or atleast hold coaching clinics
 

jim_57

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,365
South Africa could be a good place for a Perth team to recruit RU juniors.

Roosters signed an RU junior from South Africa around 5 years ago from memory, didn't come to much he played a season or two juniors then signed to Super Rugby. Worth a try though.

You'd have to imagine there would be a fair amount of Union players who would be more suited to League in the lower leagues in places like South Africa, Wales, Argentina, Japan, even France and England for that matter. Whether it would be worth putting much time/effort/money in to looking for talent there is another matter I guess.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
South Africa could be a good place for a Perth team to recruit RU juniors.

it could be it would be a hell of a lot easier and cheaper to adopt png as a Pirates second base. Set up a Pirates academy there for the best 15/16 year olds. Bring across the best 17 year olds into the Pirates sg ball side to go with the best WA kids and recognise the partnership with png flag on jersey and a pre season nrl trial game in Port Moresby. Cheap as chips Pirates PNG membership option and a relationship with the hunters. Everyone’s a winner.
 
Messages
12,780
AFL invasion of country footy means expansion goalposts have well and truly moved
Before we worry about the alleged inequities of any NRL conference system let’s ask where will the talent come from to fill two teams writes Paul Kent.

The solution to both is there in front of us.

A day after news broke about a dual-conference system in the NRL, Craig Bellamy is on the phone and we are talking about what seems to be one of the great concerns about this idea of expansion.

Bellamy’s concern is like that of almost all the coaches, which is a lack of talent to spread across all 17, and perhaps eventually 18, teams.

This competition is already divided into teams that can win the premiership and those struggling to improve, and already the NRL is talking about adding one and then another team who, under the rules of simple mathematics, means they are adding the 481st- to 540th-ranked best players in the land.

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Storm head coach Craig Bellamy doesn’t think there is enough talent to fill two new teams in the NRL. Picture: Daniel Pockett/Getty Images

For those a little mathematically challenged, the first 480 are already contracted to the 16 NRL clubs.

How does that make the competition better?

Bellamy is worried there is not enough good players to spread across the NRL already.

“Back in the day when you and I played,” he says, generously assuming I had a day, “all you could do was play footy.


“Nowadays there’s so many other things they can do.”

He starts talking about Melbourne’s game against Penrith in Bathurst in 2019 and of their bus trip after the game, driving through the dark streets of Bathurst when suddenly the world lit up.

Bellamy grew up not far away, at Portland just outside of Lithgow, hidden behind the Wallerawang Power Station.

And here out of the darkness rose an AFL field lit up like the cornfield in Field of Dreams, with grass you could play snooker on.

Next to it was a smaller AFL ground.

“The AFL have spread their wings all through our areas,” Bellamy says. “They had two AFL grounds.”

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Retired NRL great Noel Cleal has spoken about his fears for bush footy. Picture: Nathan Edwards

Two AFL grounds. He could not believe it. There wasn’t an AFL competition in the central west when Bellamy grew up and now they have these two big beautiful AFL grounds, shining like diamonds, as the AFL marches across rugby league heartlands.

Then, in the same week, Noel Cleal, bush football’s greatest patriot, declares he has not seen bush football in a worse state in his 50 years of involvement with the bush.

The two are most definitely related, and the NRL need to realise this as soon as possible.

Bush clubs are dying through lack of player numbers. Competitions are folding or merging because it no longer seems fun beating up on the same two clubs in a three-team competition.

Where towns once had second and even third grades now they struggle to put out a first grade competition, age-group football is shrinking.

Over the years, the NRL and previously the ARL have offered any number of reasons why this is so, the arc bordering from arrogance to incompetence.

All the way back in 1994 I wrote a column when it had already begun. It was clear then the game was already in some decline.

The column asked why the Australian Rugby League was spending $1.5 million a year on development in country NSW and country Queensland while the AFL was already spending $6 million, four times as much, in the same areas.

The ARL scoffed at the AFL’s stupidity.

95b927a47e7ed17f22d0d6b5b4f37afe

Australian Rugby League Commission Chairman Peter V’landys must walk a fine line between expansion of the NRL and hurting country football. Picture: Mark Kolbe/Getty Images)

Those are rugby league heartlands, they said, and the AFL is dreaming if they ever think they will have a presence there.

And now you think of Bellamy’s AFL goalposts in Bathurst.

Whenever I got letters or emails after that from good country people worrying about the state of the bush game I would ask the NRL what they were doing and the answer was a broad brush response that did nothing.

“It’s not just bush football that’s dying,” they’d say, “the bush is dying.”

In other words, nothing we can do. Even if, in some towns, they were right. Kids were fleeing to the city.

But the trick is to adapt and move forward, which they never seemed too bothered with.

Or perhaps had no answers. Or maybe it was too tough, the job too big.

Some years later, AFL boss Andrew Demetriou called in the heavy hitters in his game and, in a secret meeting, declared they were going to take on rugby league.

Demetriou explained they were going to take a subversive approach, borrowed straight from a military textbook.

We are going to go after the hearts and minds of the mothers, he said, and we are going to take their land.

So the AFL approached councils like the one in western Sydney, who oversaw a dusty, yellow-grassed eyesore some called a footy field and the AFL offered to resurface the entire oval and then pay for a greenkeeper to maintain the ground every week.

With there being no such thing as a free lunch, the council asked what they wanted in return.

“Just take down the rugby league posts and put up AFL posts,” the AFL said.

That was it.

And now you think of Bellamy’s AFL goalposts.

The AFL was launching a 20-year war, going after the next generation.

And now as the game tries to expand at the top they wonder why there might not be enough talent to go around.

The two are clearly related.

The answer is not merely expensive academies for elite talent, which helps the NRL clubs mostly. The NRL already has the elite players, the quiet truth being they now come from a dwindling pool.

The answer is participation, winning back all that ground surrendered to the AFL.

Only strength through numbers will make the game thrive, and it needs a whole of game approach to achieve it.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/s...d/news-story/a4aed11b04f04041c6879f76d899831e
The Sydney-centric NSWRL and ARL are responsible for the problems mentioned in this article. While AwFuL were promoting their game in new markets, the NSWRL and ARL only cared about keeping unviable clubs in Sydney alive. None of the lunatics responsible will put their hands up to accept their share of the blame. They'll argue all the way to their grave that Sydney must have all 9 of its current teams, plus the Bears, because "feelingz".

Since Sydney created the problem, make them pay for it by shedding a few clubs so that we can expand and have a strong competition.
 
Messages
12,780
it could be it would be a hell of a lot easier and cheaper to adopt png as a Pirates second base. Set up a Pirates academy there for the best 15/16 year olds. Bring across the best 17 year olds into the Pirates sg ball side to go with the best WA kids and recognise the partnership with png flag on jersey and a pre season nrl trial game in Port Moresby. Cheap as chips Pirates PNG membership option and a relationship with the hunters. Everyone’s a winner.
Wouldn't Papuans rather share a link with North Queensland?

It's right next door and in the same time zone. They can play in the Queensland Cup, which already has links with PNG.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
Wouldn't Papuans rather share a link with North Queensland?

It's right next door and in the same time zone. They can play in the Queensland Cup, which already has links with PNG.

maybe but it’s WA that needs new jnr pathways if it is to develop new talent so as not to weaken the comp when we do enter. It would be logical for us to go to where the kids are that currently don’t have the set up t9 help them into the nrl, hunters aside but we’re not seeing a lot of talent move from there to nrl.
 
Messages
12,780
Roosters signed an RU junior from South Africa around 5 years ago from memory, didn't come to much he played a season or two juniors then signed to Super Rugby. Worth a try though.

You'd have to imagine there would be a fair amount of Union players who would be more suited to League in the lower leagues in places like South Africa, Wales, Argentina, Japan, even France and England for that matter. Whether it would be worth putting much time/effort/money in to looking for talent there is another matter I guess.
The big advantage for a Perth team recruiting from South Africa is its time zone and large South African community. It would be easier for a young South African player to keep in touch with parents.
 
Messages
12,780
maybe but it’s WA that needs new jnr pathways if it is to develop new talent so as not to weaken the comp when we do enter. It would be logical for us to go to where the kids are that currently don’t have the set up t9 help them into the nrl, hunters aside but we’re not seeing a lot of talent move from there to nrl.
If a Perth team helps Papuans reach the NRL then it'll be great for the game. I just think Perth would have an advantage over the east coast clubs at recruiting South Africans due to their time zone.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
The big advantage for a Perth team recruiting from South Africa is its time zone and large South African community. It would be easier for a young South African player to keep in touch with parents.

true but there aren’t any kids playing league in SA so you would literally have to start from scratch and get kids interested in playing the game. If your a gun kid playing union there are a number of very lucrative options for you in the game you grew up playing without considering moving to another country to play a sport you’ve never played before.
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,291
Player depth is a myth, quality is a critic often open to being bais towards certain clubs, look at the tigers win last sunday, absolutely terrible game, but it was edge of your seat back and forth fun, and frustration, i wouldn't call that team as having great quality, but then there's daine Laurie, and zac Cini in that same team that stand out as quality footballers, you put these kids in a Melbourne, Roosters or Penrith team and they are probably run of the mill wingers.
The real issue isn't quality talent or amount of players, depth is everywhere, its 2 things, good scouts for these clubs, and good coaches.
The NRL needs more Coaches, quality ones like Bennett, like Bellamy, more experienced solid coaches, they talented players flock to good coaches for unders, they know that they'll win more games in a super club under a super coach, not a struggling one, where the coach is always looking for answers or more effort.

If bennett can coach till he is 70+
there should be coaches that were back in the 90s that should still be able to coach now, or atleast hold coaching clinics
WB is 71.
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,291
Only one I can see is guaranteeing two matches against natural rivals each season, but that doesn't need conferences to achieve.
Longer term I suppose it might create new rivalries within your conference that might not currently exist.
I thought it might work out cheaper for NRL with less travel and accommodation but looking at previous years it seems Sydney teams travel to out of sydney times around 4-6 times a year which wouldn't be any different under this conference idea.
For the NRL they believe it may create an extra two massive event games a year with the conference championship games which would potentially be bigger than the current finals.
What about this...
Week 1
F1 Syd 1 v 2 for Sydney Premiership
F2 National 1 v 2 for National Premiership
F3 Elim Syd 3 v Nat 4
F4 Elim Nat 3 v Syd 4
So if one conference is much weaker, two teams could be out week 1
Week 2
F5 Loser F1 v winner F4
F6 Loser F2 v winner F4
Week 3
F7 Winner F1 v Winner F6
F8 Winner F2 v Winner F6
Week 3
Winner F7 v winner F8
 

reanimate

Bench
Messages
3,657
true but there aren’t any kids playing league in SA so you would literally have to start from scratch and get kids interested in playing the game. If your a gun kid playing union there are a number of very lucrative options for you in the game you grew up playing without considering moving to another country to play a sport you’ve never played before.
The idea would be to not grab the kids already in the limelight and about to sign Super Rugby deals, it'd be hard to nab them, it'd be to grab players with talent who have been overlooked (e.g. Bellamy identifying journeymen like Jahrome Hughes), or are sitting in lower grades waiting for an opportunity or who may have body types better suited to RL etc.

Players have been signed out of Union systems in this country, NZ, Fiji etc- there's no reason it can't work elsewhere. It's a ready-made source of talent, if a player has been through Union systems, they already have all the basic Rugby skills under their belt; passing, kicking, tackling, ball security, goal kicking and working with rules common to both codes like knock ons, forward passes etc.
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
The idea would be to not grab the kids already in the limelight and about to sign Super Rugby deals, it'd be hard to nab them, it'd be to grab players with talent who have been overlooked (e.g. Bellamy identifying journeymen like Jahrome Hughes), or are sitting in lower grades waiting for an opportunity or who may have body types better suited to RL etc.

Players have been signed out of Union systems in this country, NZ, Fiji etc- there's no reason it can't work elsewhere. It's a ready-made source of talent, if a player has been through Union systems, they already have all the basic Rugby skills under their belt; passing, kicking, tackling, ball security, goal kicking and working with rules common to both codes like knock ons, forward passes etc.

how many of those league players played League and Union as kids though? I suspect most of them. The games are quite different, sure if we’ve mined all the other places like png, Fiji, NZ etc then SA might be worth the investment, but there are far more rich areas to fish in first.
 

reanimate

Bench
Messages
3,657
how many of those league players played League and Union as kids though? I suspect most of them. The games are quite different, sure if we’ve mined all the other places like png, Fiji, NZ etc then SA might be worth the investment, but there are far more rich areas to fish in first.
Some played both. Others, like Vunivalu, had only played Union. You're right in saying mining places like PNG etc should come first, but once those pathways are established and we have a regular flow of first graders coming from those locations, if people are then still complaining about talent levels, then there's still a multitude of other opportunities out there. It doesn't have to be South Africa, there are Union nations like Wales, Scotland etc that could be sourced for talent. I think South Africa would be ripe for it though given how weak the rand is and how many RL-suitable players there would be in lower grades.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,480
I love these sort of chicken little articles that have no evidence, stats or solutions! Firstly AFL can focus on NSW and Qlnd as their heartland state league organisations are doing their jobs very well, and the fact RL has no strategy to move into their turf meaning they dont have to worry about their rears, they can just keep forging ahead in new areas. IN WA the AFL has virtually nothing to do with grassroots AFL. Its all run by the WAFC. Maybe Kent should be asking NSWRL/CRL why they exist and what their strategy is. The NRl should just be helping fund that strategy not responsible for it. RL has a dumb set up that the NRL are held responsible for everything, they should not be. Grassroots should be the responsibility of the State body, with support from the ARLC.

Then we should be asking what is the NRL doing to close the $250mill a year revenue gap with AFL. End of day the AFL can spend big in growth areas because it earns sht loads more money than NRL. Imagine what NRL could do with an extra $250mill a year in the kitty!

The other thing is the ARLC have stopped producing quantitively measurable metrics in the annual report since Vlandys took over. Be up front and show us how club registrations are going by state, by age group and by gender. Its hard to know if we have a problem if we don't have transparency. Likewise every State League organisation should have to be producing an annual report with their own break down of participation rates.

Oh so you basically agree with the article but bag it anyway. Cool.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,480
Firstly there is no divide in the competition and even if there is it's not because of a lack of talent , that's just a lazy analysis. What's the difference between 1 or 2 teams being way ahead of everyone else and 5 teams? There have been dozens of years where a couple of teams are virtually unbeatable. Manly and Canberra in 1995 only lost 2 games during the regular season. Eels in 2001 blew everyone away. Storm and Roosters have had some very dominant seasons in recent times. Panthers last year. It's like this every season. This year it seems to be 5 teams that are way ahead of everyone else, so?

Bellamy is worried his old big 3 aren't going to be replaced with equally talented players? f**king hell... he actually has replaced them with amazingly talented players which is actually astounding.

Your analysis astounds me. It's not that there is only a couple of teams or 5 teams that can win it this year. It is the standard of the other teams that is so significantly down compared to the top 5 teams.

In previous years, yes there were times when only a couple of teams may have stood out, but most of the remaining teams quality was not that far off and almost any team could beat any team on any given day. This year the divide is huge.

But anyway grass roots is fine and thriving, nothing to worry about. The AFL isn't moving into areas that were once RL heartland, while its footprint is shrinking and the game is ripping the AFL a new one every day.

Three cheers for RL. What a stellar job. Hip hip hooray!
 

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
5,858
Your analysis astounds me. It's not that there is only a couple of teams or 5 teams that can win it this year. It is the standard of the other teams that is so significantly down compared to the top 5 teams.

In previous years, yes there were times when only a couple of teams may have stood out, but most of the remaining teams quality was not that far off and almost any team could beat any team on any given day. This year the divide is huge.

But anyway grass roots is fine and thriving, nothing to worry about. The AFL isn't moving into areas that were once RL heartland, while its footprint is shrinking and the game is ripping the AFL a new one every day.

Three cheers for RL. What a stellar job. Hip hip hooray!

Can anybody prove top teams dominating means there's a depth problem?! Seems like distribution of talent a bigger factor. Could say same for NBA another league with cap
 

mongoose

Coach
Messages
11,354
Your analysis astounds me. It's not that there is only a couple of teams or 5 teams that can win it this year. It is the standard of the other teams that is so significantly down compared to the top 5 teams.

In previous years, yes there were times when only a couple of teams may have stood out, but most of the remaining teams quality was not that far off and almost any team could beat any team on any given day. This year the divide is huge.

But anyway grass roots is fine and thriving, nothing to worry about. The AFL isn't moving into areas that were once RL heartland, while its footprint is shrinking and the game is ripping the AFL a new one every day.

Three cheers for RL. What a stellar job. Hip hip hooray!

How can you prove the standard is down though? A lot of so called experts say this (Andrew Johns) but never actually have any proof or reasoning. I think 2005 was the most even competition we've seen and also 2018 there was only 2 points separating the top 8 teams. These types of season aren't the norm and just because it's an even comp doesn't mean the teams are of a higher standard. I've seen Raiders teams that have less talent than this current one make the top 8 and this current side are not in the top 8.

I don't really know the grassroots situation but if League is dying in the country and other areas I don't think it's affected the quality of players coming through the NRL, not yet anyway...
 

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