NRL's growth mindset points to 18th team. And it ain't Perth.

[Colk]

Obviously they aren’t that obvious to many considering that people like Andrew Johns, MugaB, Wb1234, and basically all of mainstream society, seem incapable of recognising the possible negative impacts that come with ideas like the All Stars and similar, and will actively push them as a social positive.

BTW, there’re plenty of examples of successful clubs based on cultural demarcation (though most have outgrown their ethnic roots these days). In fact it’s so common that a term exists to describe it; ethnic club. So the logistics are obviously surmountable.

But I don’t recall any that operate across multiple borders with home games spread out across everywhere. They generally have a defined location or base at least

 

[Colk]

Obviously they aren’t that obvious to many considering that people like Andrew Johns, MugaB, Wb1234, and basically all of mainstream society, seem incapable of recognising the possible negative impacts that come with ideas like the All Stars and similar, and will actively push them as a social positive.

BTW, there’re plenty of examples of successful clubs based on cultural demarcation (though most have outgrown their ethnic roots these days). In fact it’s so common that a term exists to describe it; ethnic club. So the logistics are obviously surmountable.

Also I wouldn’t listen to Joey or Matthew Johns when talking about business ventures or where a new side should be based.

Different if they want to talk about matters on the field but I would rather listen to somebody with some sort of business acumen when looking at the financial viability and business plans of new sides

 

[Vee]

Perth Bear wants to ban maccas in WA too

Link?

 

[Wb1234]

And Scottish premier league heavily features Celtic and rangers

 

[The Great Dane]

Boston Celtics says hi

Outgrew their ethnic origins almost immediately. In other words they’re Celtic in name only.

And Scottish premier league heavily features Celtic and rangers

Whose fans have been having a violent running war almost since the day of their founding… We don’t want that shit in RL.

You’re also cherry picking. Why not bring up the ethnic violence that basically killed soccer in this country, or similar (and much worse) problems across Europe and South America.

I know that there’s a good chance that you aren’t old enough to remember when this was a serious problem in Australia, but the last thing this sport needs is police escorts into and out of stadiums and kids getting jumped on the street because they were wearing the wrong jersey after something happened on the other side of the world.

 

[The Great Dane]

Also I wouldn’t listen to Joey or Matthew Johns when talking about business ventures or where a new side should be based.

You and I both know that the Johns brothers are not the only ones to float such ideas, or that any such an ethnic club would take the form they are suggesting.

The NRL, and society in general, is also in a time period where it’s shown it’s self highly willing of accepting such ideas again, as Moana Pasifika and the All Stars show.

So it’s definitely not beyond the realms of reason that the NRL would be stupid enough to support a Moana Pasifika style club in NZ, especially under the current administration, and as such such ideas should be vehemently opposed whenever they rear their ugly heads.

 

[MugaB]

You and I both know that the Johns brothers are not the only ones to float such ideas, or that any such an ethnic club would take the form they are suggesting.

The NRL, and society in general, is also in a time period where it’s shown it’s self highly willing of accepting such ideas again, as Moana Pasifika and the All Stars show.

So it’s definitely not beyond the realms of reason that the NRL would be stupid enough to support a Moana Pasifika style club in NZ, especially under the current administration, and as such such ideas should be vehemently opposed whenever they rear their ugly heads.

Its not an avenue that the NRL should take, but its an idea that would cultivate more eyes on the game if successful, trouble is when a team like that recruites players like cleary, tedesco, or DCE... then what are you? are you a club of pasifika, or a club out to win?.... but its really all about ingraining support, juniors and following from th a t region... which is what penrith, and cowboys are somewhat doing .. we need clubs to be clubs first and foremost, then if you want to make that club have that identity tthen so be it... like souths are now with the indigenous or warriors could be with the kiwis... but it shouldn't define the club from recruiting

 

[The Great Dane]

Its not an avenue that the NRL should take, but its an idea that would cultivate more eyes on the game if successful, trouble is when a team like that recruites players like cleary, tedesco, or DCE... then what are you? are you a club of pasifika, or a club out to win?.... but its really all about ingraining support, juniors and following from th a t region... which is what penrith, and cowboys are somewhat doing .. we need clubs to be clubs first and foremost, then if you want to make that club have that identity tthen so be it... like souths are now with the indigenous or warriors could be with the kiwis... but it shouldn't define the club from recruiting

None of the benefits you are espousing requires ethnic clubs, and nothing you’ve said addresses the negative impacts of them.

 

[Perth Red]

Nor does bringing them up actually counter any of the points I brought up.

Unlike SOO for example, the All Stars game isn’t particularly popular outside of the minority groups the teams represent and hardcore RL fans, and it is already being used as a vehicle for politics that will bite the sport on the arse sooner or later.

In other words, though not as extreme as many other examples (ethnic violence in soccer’s past for example), it’s still a fine example of what I’m talking about.
Whether some of us are willing to acknowledge it or not, it actually is inviting exactly the sort of trouble I’m talking about, and is less popular than similar concepts could be because it actively alienates people with the “wrong” ancestry.

It’s also a perfect example of the societal hypocrisy I was talking about earlier as well. Any honest actor should be able to admit that if the NRL wanted to create an ‘All Stars’ team for certain other ethnicities that that would (rightly) be decried as discriminatory and racist… Such ethical inconsistencies always lead to conflict and atrocities given time.

Tbf nationalism has created world wars and some pretty terrible hooliganism over the years, but we dont mind a bit of international sport. Taking your point further you would be suggesting not having teams that represent countries either?

I don’t feel anymore alienated watching all stars than I do watching origin. Neither games represent me in anyway but I enjoy them both all the same.

 

[MugaB]

None of the benefits you are espousing requires ethnic clubs, and nothing you’ve said addresses the negative impacts of them.

Agreed, its the novelty of the idea, and the new eyes that get drawn to the game, because of it... as long as it can sustain being successful... for example this isn't an ethnic example but it can have similar traits, Melbourne storm, for instance success on field, took 10 years of growth and propping up via news tld whatever, but has made inroads in a foreign market that would never have been thought possible some 40 years ago knowing it was AFL territory... same could be applied to any area/s that league would want to expand to... just coz it starts as a ludurious idea doesn't mean it will end bad. There are many cases that were better ideas that never made good on.

Some ideas were a slam dunk, sth qld crushers, a 2nd qld team... broncos work well why not another... didnt end well.. regardless of how it happened, but the idea to try is important... now im not advocating that a 2nd NZ team should follow the RU Moana Pasifika model or anyting like that, but we need to expand further than just australasia, or at least dominate it first and foremost... More Nz, add Perth, get to Adelaide, maybe more QLD, possibly a Vic2 really any idea is better than none... i suppose league has prospered thu far coz they tried and failed many times regarding expanding outside of NSW, cowboys, reds, warriors, raiders, broncos have all been at some point great additions to the game that was sydney-centric, with inkeeping the inagural competion, just wish they stuck with rams, and reds way back when

 

[MugaB]

Tbf nationalism has created world wars and some pretty terrible hooliganism over the years, but we dont mind a bit of international sport. Taking your point further you would be suggesting not having teams that represent countries either?

I don’t feel anymore alienated watching all stars than I do watching origin. Neither games represent me in anyway but I enjoy them both all the same.

Well technically ponga hails from WA a bit, so you got a smidgen of something there with a win 2nite...
But yeah i get what you mean

 

[The Great Dane]

Tbf nationalism has created world wars and some pretty terrible hooliganism over the years, but we dont mind a bit of international sport.

We aren’t talking about nationalism or national teams though are we. We’re talking about ethnic and racial teams.

Vastly different and to pretend otherwise is either ignorance or a straw man.

I don’t feel anymore alienated watching all stars than I do watching origin. Neither games represent me in anyway but I enjoy them both all the same.

Yet if somebody came up with an (e.g.) Anglo Allstars, where the players have to prove their blood ancestry no less, you’d happily join the chorus of people decrying it as discriminatory and racist… It’s almost as if you don’t have consistent ethical principles.

Which is where these sorts of issues really start to get out of hand because you’ve created a genuine privileged class at that point that is allowed rights and freedoms that others are not. Also, what starts with football teams, health clinics, etc, will escalate with time, because history shows us that these things always escalate with time.

Before you say it; even if you personally would be alright with an Anglo or European Allstars, you have to admit that it’d be a massive scandal in the mainstream.

 

[The Great Dane]

Agreed, its the novelty of the idea, and the new eyes that get drawn to the game, because of it... as long as it can sustain being successful... for example this isn't an ethnic example but it can have similar traits, Melbourne storm, for instance success on field, took 10 years of growth and propping up via news tld whatever, but has made inroads in a foreign market that would never have been thought possible some 40 years ago knowing it was AFL territory... same could be applied to any area/s that league would want to expand to... just coz it starts as a ludurious idea doesn't mean it will end bad. There are many cases that were better ideas that never made good on.

Some ideas were a slam dunk, sth qld crushers, a 2nd qld team... broncos work well why not another... didnt end well.. regardless of how it happened, but the idea to try is important... now im not advocating that a 2nd NZ team should follow the RU Moana Pasifika model or anyting like that, but we need to expand further than just australasia, or at least dominate it first and foremost... More Nz, add Perth, get to Adelaide, maybe more QLD, possibly a Vic2 really any idea is better than none... i suppose league has prospered thu far coz they tried and failed many times regarding expanding outside of NSW, cowboys, reds, warriors, raiders, broncos have all been at some point great additions to the game that was sydney-centric, with inkeeping the inagural competion, just wish they stuck with rams, and reds way back when

Mate you’re not even addressing the discussion at this point.

 

[MugaB]

Mate you’re not even addressing the discussion at this point.

Im not, but we are in an expansion thread, and talking about expansion ideas... im not too focused on the negative effects any idea would bring... im just happy to hear of the possibility, you all think im syd centric, but im really happy to just chat about expansion ideas of where we could be... where else we could benefit from RL and viceversa, which is why i can see a PNG team, or a Perth bears merger, or a western corridor firehawks team etc.. (not that i ever thought that particular merger of bids would ever work)

 

[The Great Dane]

Im not, but we are in an expansion thread, and talking about expansion ideas... im not too focused on the negative effects any idea would bring...

I’m very sorry, but when the negative impacts are ethnic and/or racial tensions rising, and an increase in ethnic and/or race based violence, you need to be focused on them.

 

[Perth Red]

We aren’t talking about nationalism or national teams though are we. We’re talking about ethnic and racial teams.

Vastly different and to pretend otherwise is either ignorance or a straw man.

Yet if somebody came up with an (e.g.) Anglo Allstars, where the players have to prove their blood ancestry no less, you’d happily join the chorus of people decrying it as discriminatory and racist… It’s alm

how is it different? it’s the same really, people identifying with their own group, tribe, culture, nationality etc at the exclusion of others. Be it suburb, city, state, country or culture it’s the same, backing your group against a different one. I have no problem with someone wanting to celebrate their culture, I don’t get offended or feel,excluded, I join in their celebration with them. nothings caused more violence in sport supporters than nationalism Yet we celebrate international competition.

as for your other point there isn’t really an Anglo culture so that makes no sense. I’ve supported my city club, my county rep, team and my national side so yeh I’ve supported teams I’m aligned with In some way.

 

[Perth Red]

I’m very sorry, but when the negative impacts are ethnic and/or racial tensions rising, and an increase in ethnic and/or race based violence, you need to be focused on them.

I’ve seen some pretty ugly violence at hfc v hkr games, such is tribalism for some. It’s just a convenient excuse to be violent.

 

[MugaB]

I’m very sorry, but when the negative impacts are ethnic and/or racial tensions rising, and an increase in ethnic and/or race based violence, you need to be focused on them.

I agree, i remember the roits during NSL in sydney... not good, but that's decades of growth in a competition from yester year, the EPL stil has these issues, not all racial, but still tensions/hatred between clubs, its just hoolganism we are lucky Australia frowns upon that nowadays, so if something new like "moana pasifika" version of an NRL team ever eventuated, it wouldn't get that dire.... look im just not against new boundaries, if PVL said 2mrw that perth are getting a team, i would applaude it, if he said the same about a NZ2 with these conitations about pasikas then id buy a jersey too, the negative side of things aren't really my concern, too much history in relevance thats affecting that discussion...
My real issue is why bring in a new team from wherever that isnt going to compete...
Bring in Qatar, China, Sinapore etc moneys no issue, but why bother if they'll be perinial bottom feeders

 

[The Great Dane]

how is it different? it’s the same really.

Without getting into qualification rules that are needed in sport for practicality reasons- nationality doesn’t require an ancestral or blood element, race and (most) ethnicities do.

In other words, one has some power to choose their nationality if they so wish, where race and (most) ethnicities are, or at least have elements of, an immutable characteristic that one is born with and can’t change.

as for your other point there isn’t really an Anglo culture so that makes no sense.

As a person that probably wouldn’t qualify for an Anglo Allstars, there absolutely is a unique Anglo-Saxon (or English) culture and ethnicity, and whether we like it or not it is undoubtedly the biggest influence on modern Australian culture.

If you honestly believe that there isn’t an English culture (which is very weird for an Englishman BTW) then I don’t know what to tell you mate, you’re simply not living in reality.

 

[The Great Dane]

I’ve seen some pretty ugly violence at hfc v hkr games, such is tribalism for some. It’s just a convenient excuse to be violent.

Sure, and plenty of people that were lynched in the US had nothing to do with their race…

Ethnic and racial tribalism is a unique problem, which has unique societal outcomes, and unique solutions.

You are either intentionally misrepresenting the argument at this point, or are honestly astoundingly ignorant.