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NRL's growth mindset points to 18th team. And it ain't Perth.

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
It's not a strawman, and frankly I don't believe for a second that you don't already know it, so stop playing dumb.

You have no limiting principle except the subjective opinion of the individual. In other words as long as something can be shown to have measurable negative social, environmental, or health impacts that can be used as an excuse to 'control' (i.e. effectively attempt to ban it in the long term) anything that enough people in power deem abhorrent or atypical.

I, or rather my side of the argument, does have a limiting principle; as soon as something directly infringes on others rights and freedoms it should be controlled. In other words it ain't anybody's business unless you're hurting somebody else.

Gambling doesn't hurt anybody else except in an amorphous sense which we A. clearly aren't talking about when we talk about infringing on others rights and freedoms, and B. is impossible to try and control for without taking authoritarian measures.

The vast majority of societies throughout history have been authoritarian hellholes. Of those that weren't/aren't they either failed to live up to their principles (we are flawed beings after all), or they accepted the fact that if freedom is to mean anything at all then it must include the freedom to make mistakes...

You cannot legislate away stupidity, and history shows that it is in fact stupidity to even attempt it.

Except of course that you can't because that isn't how a representative democracy works, especially not a dual party representative democracy.

If you don't have somebody representing your position in politics/the halls of power then that opinion effectively doesn't matter politically. Even if you do have a representative odds are that you will still lose unless your rep is a mainstream candidate, because 90-95% of all voters are totally ill informed on the vast majority of issues, even the ones they proclaim to care about most, and as such fall into tribal patterns instead of actually making a decision based on an informed understanding of the issue. That problem is amplified in a lot of ways in a mandatory voting system as well, but that's an aside.

Utter ivory tower BS. The same nonsense crap people have been spewing since time immemorial, and the same lesson that certain parts of society seems incapable of learning.

All that those studies show is either that the problem has moved, or that it's become difficult to measure.
In the case of e.g. cigarettes, the restriction of cigarettes has directly lead to an uptick in other methods of consuming nicotine, or worse. So sure the number of smokers has dropped, however the number of vapers (currently) and other similar addicts rises to meet the demand.

In addictions like gambling it's even worse.

See the gambling addicts don't have anywhere else to get their high, but they don't go away either, so they are forced to find other ways of gambling, ways that can't easily be measured by dickheads whom were never taught to live and let live when they were kids...
In other words they turn to uncontrollable methods of gambling to meet the demand, i.e. illegal, organised crime, and online gambling operations, all of which have significantly worse outcomes for society than just allowing people to gamble and trying to fix the problems that ensue when they arise.

Prohibition, the war on drugs, outlawing gambling, the sex trade, abortions, even things like the outlawing of homosexuality, etc, etc, etc, how many ruined lives and unintended consequences before western society learns the bloody lesson; prohibition, in all it's forms, doesn't f**king work.
we’ll have to agree to disagree, there’s numerous examples, seat belts smoking, helmets, speed limits, drink driving etc etc that have clear evidence that imposing them on people has had beneficial effects For the individual and the community. It is no coincidence that the state with the highest pokie machine and easy access to them also has the largest amount being pssed away on them and the largest number of problem gamblers. to say problem gambling doesn’t effect anyone but the individual is extremely naive.

and again I’m not saying outlaw it, I’m saying make it less accessible and less socially acceptable. I mean you can’t watch sport on tv these days without dozens of gambling adverts, that is part of the ploy to normalise it and get mugs throwing their money away, Which seemingly leads to lots of problems for many. Ban advertising and restrict pokie numbers, the world will be a better place for it.
 
Messages
12,782
Older people like to have a spin on the pokies. It gets them out of the house and keeps them amused.

If it gives them pleasure in their final years then it's not all bad. For some it might be a reason to get out of bed and leave the house.

There are problem gamblers who use the pokies. Take the pokies away and they'll probably piss their savings away at the bar.
 

Wb1234

Referee
Messages
23,007
I've been known to be.
Is that the oweec
Older people like to have a spin on the pokies. It gets them out of the house and keeps them amused.

If it gives them pleasure in their final years then it's not all bad. For some it might be a reason to get out of bed and leave the house.

There are problem gamblers who use the pokies. Take the pokies away and they'll probably piss their savings away at the bar.
Exactly this

plus they get heavily discounted food and drinks and a place for a ciggie out the back

it’s pensioner heaven
 
Messages
12,782
Is that the oweec

Exactly this

plus they get heavily discounted food and drinks and a place for a ciggie out the back

it’s pensioner heaven
We all have our vices and they all come with their fair share of problems. It's arguable that excessive consumption of fast food and processed food is worse than gambling. A person playing the pokies isn't filling themselves up with toxic shit that causes disease and death. Plus they have access to a restaurant that sells home cooked meals.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
12,155
We all have our vices and they all come with their fair share of problems. It's arguable that excessive consumption of fast food and processed food is worse than gambling. A person playing the pokies isn't filling themselves up with toxic shit that causes disease and death. Plus they have access to a restaurant that sells home cooked meals.
Perth Bear wants to ban maccas in WA too
 

Wb1234

Referee
Messages
23,007
Perth Bear wants to ban maccas in WA too
He only wants to ban the things which bring in money for rugby league in Sydney and Brisbane too

if his little club in England had pokies he wouldn’t be complaining. It’s just jealousy

like when he bagged the bears for 15 years but the minute they benefitted Perth he became a fan overnight lol
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
Nothing so sad as seeing people waste what little money they have and few years they have left sitting for hours staring at a pokie machine screen. Walked into the steers club and felt a sense of desolation and despair. Very sad. I’ve yet to see anyone looking happy sat at a pokie machine.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
12,155
No

no. It’s done poorly in union

if union can’t make it work in nz league has zero chance
Hehehe hey hey dont shoot the messenger!!

Union is built for tough ridgid men, MANly men... pasifika cultures share lots of traits, mainly sing songs, and good times... it's got Rugba Lieg written all over it..

Johns is a moron btw
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,957
How is the union Pacifica team doing for home crowds? Wondering why anyone in Wellington would support a generic pacific team? Does anyone Assopiate themselves with being a Pacifica? seems to me they are proudly Tonga, Samoan or Fijian.
 

Wb1234

Referee
Messages
23,007
How is the union Pacifica team doing for home crowds? Wondering why anyone in Wellington would support a generic pacific team? Does anyone Assopiate themselves with being a Pacifica? seems to me they are proudly Tonga, Samoan or Fijian.
Exactly. And most of them are in Auckland anyway
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,789
BTW, ethnic clubs are always a terrible idea.

They invite trouble, and alienating the majority of potential customers based on their ancestry is just stupid on the face of it.

It’s also a massive hypocritical double standard for society to allow such things to occur, but that’s a whole other discussion.
 

Wb1234

Referee
Messages
23,007
BTW, ethnic clubs are always a terrible idea.

They invite trouble, and alienating the majority of potential customers based on their ancestry is just stupid on the face of it.

It’s also a massive hypocritical double standard for society to allow such things to occur, but that’s a whole other discussion.
Aboriginal all stars vs nz Māori says hello
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,789
To be fair, they aren’t teams in the NRL competition.
Nor does bringing them up actually counter any of the points I brought up.

Unlike SOO for example, the All Stars game isn’t particularly popular outside of the minority groups the teams represent and hardcore RL fans, and it is already being used as a vehicle for politics that will bite the sport on the arse sooner or later.

In other words, though not as extreme as many other examples (ethnic violence in soccer’s past for example), it’s still a fine example of what I’m talking about.
Whether some of us are willing to acknowledge it or not, it actually is inviting exactly the sort of trouble I’m talking about, and is less popular than similar concepts could be because it actively alienates people with the “wrong” ancestry.

It’s also a perfect example of the societal hypocrisy I was talking about earlier as well. Any honest actor should be able to admit that if the NRL wanted to create an ‘All Stars’ team for certain other ethnicities that that would (rightly) be decried as discriminatory and racist… Such ethical inconsistencies always lead to conflict and atrocities given time.
 

Colk

First Grade
Messages
6,442
Nor does bringing them up actually counter any of the points I brought up.

Unlike SOO for example, the All Stars game isn’t particularly popular outside of the minority groups the teams represent and hardcore RL fans, and it is already being used as a vehicle for politics that will bite the sport on the arse sooner or later.

In other words, though not as extreme as many other examples (ethnic violence in soccer’s past for example), it’s still a fine example of what I’m talking about.
Whether some of us are willing to acknowledge it or not, it actually is inviting exactly the sort of trouble I’m talking about, and is less popular than similar concepts could be because it actively alienates people with the “wrong” ancestry.

It’s also a perfect example of the societal hypocrisy I was talking about earlier as well. Any honest actor should be able to admit that if the NRL wanted to create an ‘All Stars’ team for certain other ethnicities that that would (rightly) be decried as discriminatory and racist… Such ethical inconsistencies always lead to conflict and atrocities given time.

This post was unnecessary. You shouldn’t assume that I don’t understand or identify the issues associated with a side that, deliberately or otherwise, segregates along the lines along the lines of race or culture. This is even disregarding the secondary issue of logistics: which is how you would even run a side without a defined location and based on such a cultural demarcation.

I just didn’t feel the need to address these issues because they are so blatantly obvious
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,789
This post was unnecessary. You shouldn’t assume that I don’t understand or identify the issues associated with a side that, deliberately or otherwise, segregates along the lines along the lines of race or culture. This is even disregarding the secondary issue of logistics: which is how you would even run a side without a defined location and based on such a cultural demarcation.

I just didn’t feel the need to address these issues because they are so blatantly obvious
Obviously they aren’t that obvious to many considering that people like Andrew Johns, MugaB, Wb1234, and basically all of mainstream society, seem incapable of recognising the possible negative impacts that come with ideas like the All Stars and similar, and will actively push them as a social positive.

BTW, there’re plenty of examples of successful clubs based on cultural demarcation (though most have outgrown their ethnic roots these days). In fact it’s so common that a term exists to describe it; ethnic club. So the logistics are obviously surmountable.
 

Wb1234

Referee
Messages
23,007
Obviously they aren’t that obvious to many considering that people like Andrew Johns, MugaB, Wb1234, and basically all of mainstream society, seem incapable of recognising the possible negative impacts that come with ideas like the All Stars and similar, and will actively push them as a social positive.

BTW, there’re plenty of examples of successful clubs based on cultural demarcation (though most have outgrown their ethnic roots these days). In fact it’s so common that a term exists to describe it; ethnic club. So the logistics are obviously surmountable.
Boston Celtics says hi
 
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