NZ Expansion

[Wilson1]

You guys are off your heads.

Player numbers don't mean shit in whether or not you have a team. New Zealand is already maxed out for league talent. There are already scouts at every tournament and at every school. If we had another league team we would just be taking away young players from Australian NRL teams and keeping them here. Maybe that is a good thing but I doubt we will produce more than a few more players.

The problem with an NRL team is that it just wouldn't work. I live in Wellington and there is just no appetite for a team. People in Wellington show off for big one off events but do not turn up consistently over a season. We already have two professional teams and most league fans live away from where the stadium is located. An NRL team in Wellington would be looking at crowds of sub 10k when the novelty wears off.

Every time this issue comes up Australians trump Wellington even though they have probably never been here.

The big issue is that there is just no local support. Hell, Wellington is the only bid which is too lazy to even put together its own website.

If you want New Zealand look to Christchurch. They have a better stadium, similar population, are more parochial, hate Auckland, get good attendance figures and only have to compete with rugby union and not soccer.

 

[RoosTah]

You guys are off your heads.

Player numbers don't mean shit in whether or not you have a team. New Zealand is already maxed out for league talent. There are already scouts at every tournament and at every school. If we had another league team we would just be taking away young players from Australian NRL teams and keeping them here. Maybe that is a good thing but I doubt we will produce more than a few more players.

The problem with an NRL team is that it just wouldn't work. I live in Wellington and there is just no appetite for a team. People in Wellington show off for big one off events but do not turn up consistently over a season. We already have two professional teams and most league fans live away from where the stadium is located. An NRL team in Wellington would be looking at crowds of sub 10k when the novelty wears off.

Every time this issue comes up Australians trump Wellington even though they have probably never been here.

The big issue is that there is just no local support. Hell, Wellington is the only bid which is too lazy to even put together its own website.

If you want New Zealand look to Christchurch. They have a better stadium, similar population, are more parochial, hate Auckland, get good attendance figures and only have to compete with rugby union and not soccer.

I actually agree - I don't get the draw for Wellington either to be honest. The CakeTin is a soulless hole and I've never understood how they got clearance to build anything but a rectangular stadium in the city.

I'm also very interested in the Christchurch proposition, but have been told by other kiwis say the appetite factor is pretty similar down there to Wellington.

In terms of the market for Rugby League, from what I understand the NRL might be better off getting a second Auckland team.

 

[ZEROMISSTACKLES]

You guys are off your heads.

Player numbers don't mean shit in whether or not you have a team. New Zealand is already maxed out for league talent. There are already scouts at every tournament and at every school. If we had another league team we would just be taking away young players from Australian NRL teams and keeping them here. Maybe that is a good thing but I doubt we will produce more than a few more players.

The problem with an NRL team is that it just wouldn't work. I live in Wellington and there is just no appetite for a team. People in Wellington show off for big one off events but do not turn up consistently over a season. We already have two professional teams and most league fans live away from where the stadium is located. An NRL team in Wellington would be looking at crowds of sub 10k when the novelty wears off.

Every time this issue comes up Australians trump Wellington even though they have probably never been here.

The big issue is that there is just no local support. Hell, Wellington is the only bid which is too lazy to even put together its own website.

If you want New Zealand look to Christchurch. They have a better stadium, similar population, are more parochial, hate Auckland, get good attendance figures and only have to compete with rugby union and not soccer.

Bro I agree with what you're saying. Its just so hard to see us having another 'competitive' League side in the NRL given the Warriors are having a hard enough time as it is and they're already selected from the whole country and after that, we still need Aussie players to help us out with some positions.

It's just not happening and I don't see it happening in the next 10 years. I'm definitely having difficulty seeing what those who are pushing for a second NZ NRL team are seeing. Have they done the thorough research that I don't know about?

New Zealand youngsters need to have a passion to play League. Our Kiwi side at the moment has got them watching and thinking about League only because they know we are always the underdogs when up against the Goliath Kangaroos. So everytime we beat them, its like wow because we BEAT them. If we field a second NRL side which loses a lot, we will destroy League in NZ because the team will just lose lose and youngsters dont wanna see that, that will just equate to Union being the 1st choice pick.

 

[ozenzud]

Another mistake. This will be the new titans, the next titans with support dwindling after the shine of a new team wears off.
Auckland need a derby, like Brisbane. You create massive interest by having two teams playing out of the one stadium every weekend. Creating a Wellington will just create another gold coast, a team in the middle of faking nowhere, with fake-all support, and stuck in a round lifeless stadium, in the cold, in the heart of winter with no cover.

This bid has failure written all over it, while we could have a team in Auckland, and lobby the government with a bit of cash to build a new stadium, (or better still invest with their own money(the NRL) to build a decent stadium in Auckland for our code.)
With massive derbies, a support base that can grow, and the bonus of a stadium for our code to call home in NZ.

We need vision, not the same old mistakes. Wellington is a mistake, i dont care how many millionaires are on board.

The NRL season should be cut by at least four rounds and new teams from Perth, South-East Queensland and New Zealand added to the competition, according to new NRL Head of Strategy Shane Richardson.

The former Souths CEO also said there was no guarantee all nine Sydney clubs would survive under his vision for the game.

Discussing his blueprint to improve the NRL, Richardson said the season must be streamlined to reduce player burnout, which was a major concern given the current packed schedule with 26 rounds and three mid-week State of Origin matches.

"It?s not about quantity, its quality. Certainly we can reduce it (the season) to 22 games or even 20," Richardson told The Daily Telegraph.

"Then look at State of Origin and stand-alone weekends. We look at the pre-season and control that a lot better.

"Then international football. We?ve got to lock in what we want to do then take it to the broadcasters for the next television deal."

Wellington would have to beat Easts for supporters, no matter how bad it got? Seriously, Easts have no juniors and no supporters. Just a rich millionaire backer

 

[RoosTah]

Wellington would have to beat Easts for supporters, no matter how bad it got? Seriously, Easts have no juniors and no supporters. Just a rich millionaire backer

We have plenty of supporters - we just don't always turn up for games because we're all very busy full time professionals .

I'd personally rather see Canterbury over Wellington though - North v South Island rivalry would be pretty cool in League to foster.

NRL needs to put more money into that local comp first though.

 

[Perth Red]

It's got to the point in nrl were 12k crowds are the norm so not sure we should be too worried about their crowds. You could make three NZ teams up from the talent running around in nrl and SL.

 

[Te Kaha]

It's got to the point in nrl were 12k crowds are the norm so not sure we should be too worried about their crowds. You could make three NZ teams up from the talent running around in nrl and SL.

but.. but... but... wasn't a new team with its massive amount of money going to be able to buy up all of the emerging talent in the country? Glad you have given up on that fairy tale.

 

[Perth Red]

But but. But, stop talking BS. A second club will give NZ jnrs of both codes another option, that can only be a good thing for RL in NZ. I find it sad that a so called league fan would think this a bad or unbelievable thing. Smells of Union troll to me.

 

[RoosTah]

but.. but... but... wasn't a new team with its massive amount of money going to be able to buy up all of the emerging talent in the country? Glad you have given up on that fairy tale.

There are 8 RL clubs in Canterbury NZ, a couple less than the often mooted Central Coast, so perhaps there's already the beginnings of a case there. The NRL just needs to give them a couple years of elevated funding and take a couple games there a year.

 

[Te Kaha]

But but. But, stop talking BS. A second club will give NZ jnrs of both codes another option, that can only be a good thing for RL in NZ. I find it sad that a so called league fan would think this a bad or unbelievable thing. Smells of Union troll to me.

Where did I say another team was bad? I have never said that. I took aim at your pathetic claims about a new team being able to buy all the juniors because the NZRU was in financial strife, which is blatantly wrong.

There are 8 RL clubs in Canterbury NZ, a couple less than the often mooted Central Coast, so perhaps there's already the beginnings of a case there. The NRL just needs to give them a couple years of elevated funding and take a couple games there a year.

ChCh needs a new stadium first. and yes LOTS of funding.

 

[RoosTah]

ChCh needs a new stadium first. and yes LOTS of funding.

From what I understand the city was heavily insured and there is the capital to build one, but the priorities are elsewhere (understandably).

That said, the current Canterbury Rugby League Stadium that the Crusaders are using has an ideal capacity for a new rugby league for a city that size.

Get the NRL or a couple Rugby League keen business people to start boosting the Cantab local rugby league scene and then take one or two NRL games down there a year and I think after about 5 or 6 years they might be ready for a bid.

The NRL needs to get in there properly though - put incentives in schools etc and make sure kids are playing both games.

Looks like they've made a start there either way though: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...-nrl-team-in-new-zealand-20150129-1315t5.html

Dave Smith seems to think it a good idea too: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league...nrls-growth-strategy-says-ceo-dave-smith.html

Would love to see a strong south island Kiwi team - they breed em tough down there. The Crusaders are such a fixture of Union in spite of having far less resources than places like Auckland they have managed to dominate the entire competition for most of its existence, so perhaps we shouldn't be using the Warriors' failure as a reason to doubt the south.

 

[ozenzud]

but.. but... but... wasn't a new team with its massive amount of money going to be able to buy up all of the emerging talent in the country? Glad you have given up on that fairy tale.

If you are from Wellington you would know the Storm and Newcastle have a number of Wellington boys on their books. They also sniff around the rugby ranks. It was apparent to me, they know all the local rugby superstars and approach those that interest them.

The storm is full of Kiwis and Newcastle has a few too.

With an actual NRL team in Wellington, I think you could persuade a heap of young rugby boys to play league. The NRL's resources actually would swamp the NZRU's with ease.

The NZRU is not poor, but if you look at their profits, the NRL has more than the NZRU's average profit, unallocated to any budget, that is around $20-40 mill from memory. So a fraction of that allocated annually could see league really take on Rugby in NZ. But I still don't see it happening.

 

[Te Kaha]

If you are from Wellington you would know the Storm and Newcastle have a number of Wellington boys on their books. They also sniff around the rugby ranks. It was apparent to me, they know all the local rugby superstars and approach those that interest them.

The storm is full of Kiwis and Newcastle has a few too.

If you had read the entire thread you would see that I have already stated there is plenty of League talent in NZ available for a second team, that is not the issue. And approaching them does not equate to being able to sign them. The Warriors have the same talent scouts for the last 20 years and the NZ Rugby supply train is still stronger than ever.

With an actual NRL team in Wellington, I think you could persuade a heap of young rugby boys to play league. The NRL's resources actually would swamp the NZRU's with ease.

No they wouldn't. And do you think the rest of the NRL clubs will sit by ideally and let it happen, no. Do you think the NZ public would sit back ideally and let it happen. No.
And how do you think all of those League juniors would feel if the money went to Rugby juniors instead? you would effectively kill junior league as there wouldn't be an incentive to play.

The NZRU is not poor, but if you look at their profits, the NRL has more than the NZRU's average profit, unallocated to any budget, that is around $20-40 mill from memory. So a fraction of that allocated annually could see league really take on Rugby in NZ. But I still don't see it happening.

You might want to do some research there. I have already provided the links. the Profits for the NZRU are tiny, and that's because the surplus goes into "reserves". in the four years since they were tapped out for the World cup they have now banked over 60mil in reserves,

 

[RoosTah]

If you had read the entire thread you would see that I have already stated there is plenty of League talent in NZ available for a second team, that is not the issue. And approaching them does not equate to being able to sign them. The Warriors have the same talent scouts for the last 20 years and the NZ Rugby supply train is still stronger than ever.

Is it fair to use the failure of Auckland as a reason to not invest in a South Island side in a place like Canterbury though? The Blues have the biggest market to operate in, but have been utterly abysmal for years while South Island sides like the Crusaders and more recently the Chiefs dominated the competition.

Perhaps it's a culture thing up North related to poor management. After all, if the Storm can succeed in a hostile place like Melbourne with better management and feeder contracts with older League hubs, there's no reason it can't be replicated in a place like Christchurch (or Perth).

Of course, before that happens I also think the NRL needs to lose at least 3 teams from Sydney; in essence the NRL should expand whilst keeping the same number of teams. 3 gone from Sydney means NZ 2, Perth and Brisbane 2 could all be comfortably supported.

 

[Perth Red]

I think that would be the ideal outcome but have no doubts the NRL does not have the balls (or to be fair the control and power at this time) to cut three Sydney teams loose.

No one is saying every Union jnr, we are talking an improved pathway for the handful of elite 16 year jnrs of either code to have choice which they play without having to go too far from home to do so. There are only so many players the Warriors can have in their Under 20's squad. As I said we have seen first hand in WA union jnrs chosing SG ball over the force scholarships since a pathway was opened up for them in their own backyard. This will be even greater when we finally get a team and they can stay in their home city to play U20s and first grade. Same will happen in Sth NZ.

 

[RoosTah]

I think that would be the ideal outcome but have no doubts the NRL does not have the balls (or to be fair the control and power at this time) to cut three Sydney teams loose.

It's a tricky one, because eliminating teams just generates such ill will among the spurned fans and generates all sorts of conspiracy theories particularly against the other Sydney sides.

To be frank, I think the smartest solution could be the most traumatic, but traumatic in a way that may actually engender less long term ill will; that is to relegate ALL the Sydney sides to the NSWCup and effectively reboot the city between North, West, East and South.

Give them new identities and more contemporary boundaries that reflect the demographic and geographic realities of Sydney today, rather than in 1908. After all, the NRL grew out of a Sydney suburban comp and so there's a certain logic to producing a level above it that is more representative of larger areas. The Broncos effectively represent the entirety of the old Brisbane local comp, so it's not without precedent in a certain sense.

No one is saying every Union jnr, we are talking an improved pathway for the handful of elite 16 year jnrs of either code to have choice which they play without having to go too far from home to do so. There are only so many players the Warriors can have in their Under 20's squad. As I said we have seen first hand in WA union jnrs chosing SG ball over the force scholarships since a pathway was opened up for them in their own backyard. This will be even greater when we finally get a team and they can stay in their home city to play U20s and first grade. Same will happen in Sth NZ.

Well of course. The success of Rugby League in NZ doesn't mean undermining Union really, it simply means more effort into development for existing league systems and the better utilisation of current NZ and NRL talent in those regions.

 

[Te Kaha]

I think that would be the ideal outcome but have no doubts the NRL does not have the balls (or to be fair the control and power at this time) to cut three Sydney teams loose.

No one is saying every Union jnr, we are talking an improved pathway for the handful of elite 16 year jnrs of either code to have choice which they play without having to go too far from home to do so. There are only so many players the Warriors can have in their Under 20's squad. As I said we have seen first hand in WA union jnrs chosing SG ball over the force scholarships since a pathway was opened up for them in their own backyard. This will be even greater when we finally get a team and they can stay in their home city to play U20s and first grade. Same will happen in Sth NZ.

And where will these 16 year olds play? There is no decent school structure in place and very little in the way of club structure. There needs to be much more investment in that before any club would be successful using local talent.
And Melbourne cant be used as an example as they have used Qld as there nursery from the very beginning.

just because it happened in somewhere in Aussie doesn't mean it will automatically happen in NZ.

 

[RoosTah]

And where will these 16 year olds play? There is no decent school structure in place and very little in the way of club structure. There needs to be much more investment in that before any club would be successful using local talent.
And Melbourne cant be used as an example as they have used Qld as there nursery from the very beginning.

just because it happened in somewhere in Aussie doesn't mean it will automatically happen in NZ.

Well, of course it's not going to happen "automatically", but success in a place like Melbourne, where people were actively hostile to League and played a game with few transferable skills demonstrates it can be done wouldn't you say?

What if a Christchurch side linked it's Jnr structure with a couple big NRL sides in the way Melbourne did? If the NRL provided an incentive - and they would given the precedent - then it's certainly something that could happen.

I agree with you regarding the need for greater investment in the existing structure, but the Canterbury Rugby League is already home to 8 senior Rugby League teams - the same number as a place like the Illawarra, which is considered League heartland. Sure, more depth needs to be built, but with Christchurch getting a NSW Cup side soon, that is happening.

I honestly don't see why you're so negative regarding this prospect. There's definitely potential there - it just needs to be approached with similar methods that were used in a place like Melbourne.

 

[ozenzud]

No they wouldn't. And do you think the rest of the NRL clubs will sit by ideally and let it happen, no. Do you think the NZ public would sit back ideally and let it happen. No.
And how do you think all of those League juniors would feel if the money went to Rugby juniors instead? you would effectively kill junior league as there wouldn't be an incentive to play.

Absolute bollocks. I see you played in the old days. Times are different. Kids play the sport their mates play but don't make decisions on what they play professionally till they leave school. And they don't get paid to play in Wellington. Noone does.

I also seem to recall you were the one that denied schools were trying to stop kids playing league? Might be wrong, apologise if you weren't. But Rugby is running scared of kids playing league. No doubt. They disguise it as player welfare. I had to argue with my sons coach that it was his and my decision if he played league and rugby.


You might want to do some research there. I have already provided the links. the Profits for the NZRU are tiny, and that's because the surplus goes into "reserves". in the four years since they were tapped out for the World cup they have now banked over 60mil in reserves,[/QUOTE]

I have done. The NRL's revenue is much higher than the NZRU. Fact.

 

[Te Kaha]

Absolute bollocks. I see you played in the old days. Times are different. Kids play the sport their mates play but don't make decisions on what they play professionally till they leave school. And they don't get paid to play in Wellington. Noone does..

And how is that any different if their "mates" are all playing Rugby in the local school comps. the ones that League don't currently have set up. There needs to be the investment in the infrastructure first.

I also seem to recall you were the one that denied schools were trying to stop kids playing league? Might be wrong, apologise if you weren't. .

Schools aren't. Schools have budgets. The NZRU provides the schools with gear and resources. the NZRL does not. The funding for most of the school based League activity is by donation from parents. Until their is the investment in juniors that is not going to change

But Rugby is running scared of kids playing league. No doubt. They disguise it as player welfare. I had to argue with my sons coach that it was his and my decision if he played league and rugby. .

Rugby is not running scared, what utter crap.

I have done. The NRL's revenue is much higher than the NZRU. Fact.

The NRL/ARLs revenue is almost triple that of the NZRU. The NRL has to answer to the 16 clubs and the players who wont want that money spent on a "code war". The NZRU answers to no one. Anybody who thinks that the NRL is ever going to think about doing that or be able to is a fool.