OT: Current Affairs and Politics

[Bandwagon]

Do you think the rest of the world outside of the British just leaves those who were here alone for the next 235 years?

Probably not.

But these other shit merkins woulda likely have been worse shit merkins isn't exactly a compelling argument for shit merkinery.

 

[Chipmunk]

Probably not.

But these other shit merkins woulda likely have been worse shit merkins isn't exactly a compelling argument for shit merkinery.

The reality is that people have had their lands taken from them by a bigger force since almost the beginning of time. This is still going on around the world as we speak.

In many cases, civilisations have been wiped completetly out throughout history as a result of this.

All of this is certaintly extremely unfortunate for those impacted, but this is just the reality of the history of world.

However, the world has evolved into what it is now, but irrespective, you can't change the past.

 

[Bandwagon]

The reality is that people have had their lands taken from them by a bigger force since almost the beginning of time. This is still going on around the world as we speak.

In many cases, civilisations have been wiped completetly from history as a result of this.

All of this is certaintly extremely unfortunate for those impacted, but this is just the reality of the history of world.

However, the world has evolved into what it is now, but irrespective, you can't change the past.

That is all true.

But again, "that's just how it is" isn't a particularly convincing ethical stance.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

Maybe China? They knew about it

Noel Pearson thinks the uk was the best of a bad bunch.

Its never a good time to be indigenous during a conquering and for many years after.

Hamas will not cop it.

They'll be bunkered down

The only point to bombing the f**k outta Gaza is, to bomb the f**k outta Gaza.

Yes I see your point.

 

[Chipmunk]

That is all true.

But again, "that's just how it is" isn't a particularly convincing ethical stance.

What's unethical about accepting what is true?

 

[the phantom menace]

However, the world has evolved into what it is now, but irrespective, you can't change the past.

But we can change Constitutional recognition of First Peoples including an advisory committee.

 

[the phantom menace]

What does the alternative current continent of Australia look like had the British not sent it's Convicts here 235 years ago?

There was already trading going on in the top end of course, with the Macassans. But for all intents and purposes, the continent is a f**king desert in the middle of nowhere. No-one in their right mind would have wanted it that badly.

The Dutch had landed on the west coast, and then left it the hell alone. The French were sniffing around too, but didn't really seem bothered either. The Japaense tried it on in WWII, but I get the sense at the time their leadership was a little bat shit crazy.

 

[JokerEel]

on the voice what's it actually going to change?

a quick google search gave me this result for Aboriginal issues in Australia:

Is it going to fix the below?

Aboriginal communities in Australia are facing a mix of issues12. These issues include1:

• Lack of services, such as medical and disability services, and often no Home or Community Care services.
• Lack of medical care, including no dental care and sometimes no professional medical centre at all.
• Little education.
• High unemployment.
• Staff exhaustion.
• Decaying infrastructure.
• Broken families.
• High crime rates.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are also less likely to complete high school, have higher rates of drug and alcohol consumption as well as domestic violence, and on average live ten years less than their non-indigenous counterparts2.

 

[Gary Gutful]

on the voice what's it actually going to change?

a quick google search gave me this result for Aboriginal issues in Australia:

Is it going to fix the below?

Aboriginal communities in Australia are facing a mix of issues12. These issues include1:

• Lack of services, such as medical and disability services, and often no Home or Community Care services.
• Lack of medical care, including no dental care and sometimes no professional medical centre at all.
• Little education.
• High unemployment.
• Staff exhaustion.
• Decaying infrastructure.
• Broken families.
• High crime rates.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are also less likely to complete high school, have higher rates of drug and alcohol consumption as well as domestic violence, and on average live ten years less than their non-indigenous counterparts2.

Given how significant these issues are to those affected, why would anyone begrudge them the opportunity to have a voice and help advise on how to improve things?

 

[JokerEel]

Given how significant these issues are to those affected, why would anyone begrudge them the opportunity to have a voice and help advise on how to improve things?

I am not.. my point is what's the voice going to do for these issues?

Why are we as Tax payers not getting better from the elected government already?

Do they really need us to vote yes so they can ask the First nation people how the government should work with them to better their lives?

https://budget.gov.au/content/factsheets/download/factsheet_first_nations.pdf#:~:text=The%20Budget%20invests%20%241.9%20billion%20in%20initiatives%20for,Aboriginal%20and%20Torres%20Strait%20Islander%20people%20and%20communities.

 

[Chipmunk]

There was already trading going on in the top end of course, with the Macassans. But for all intents and purposes, the continent is a f**king desert in the middle of nowhere. No-one in their right mind would have wanted it that badly.

The Dutch had landed on the west coast, and then left it the hell alone. The French were sniffing around too, but didn't really seem bothered either. The Japaense tried it on in WWII, but I get the sense at the time their leadership was a little bat shit crazy.

The French were next in line, but the British got here first.

The Japanese didn't get here only because dare I say it, British colonisation 160 odd years earlier. Long term they likely wouldn't have been around long though as it turns out.

I think there is little chance the continent doesn't get invaded at some point given the land size and natural resources on offer here in any case.

If it for whatever unbelievable reason it doesn't get invaded, I suspect you would see a country comparable to PNG now. However, I suspect PNG is only as good as it is due to the fact that it was previously colonised, and the continent it is only a short boat ride away from is a pretty advance place, due purely and simply to colonisation.

Does anyone seriously think the USA becomes the super power it became if it was left solely to the indigenous people there without colonisation?

 

[Chipmunk]

But we can change Constitutional recognition of First Peoples including an advisory committee.

Apparently not given the opinion polls.

 

[the phantom menace]

Apparently not given the opinion polls.

That's a good point you raise... Remember a few (5-10?) years back, when everyone discovered that polling was shit and provided a very limited indication of the actual outcome of elections?

Why do we (or anyone) put any faith in the robustness of polling - particularly that procured by News Corp, and then spouted by them to support their "divisive" line in trying to prevent the referendum succeeding - now?

 

[Chipmunk]

That's a good point you raise... Remember a few (5-10?) years back, when everyone discovered that polling was shit and provided a very limited indication of the actual outcome of elections?

Why do we (or anyone) put any faith in the robustness of polling - particularly that procured by News Corp, and then spouted by them to support their "divisive" line in trying to prevent the referendum succeeding - now?

I actually agree, I think the polls are way off...I can see No hitting 70 per cent.

The 'berra has to be a good barometer, it's probably one of the most woke places on the planet. There are No signs everywhere. I'm yet to meet anyone I know voting Yes.

Something has really gone a miss with this.

 

[the phantom menace]

The 'berra has to be a good barometer, it's probably one of the most woke places on the planet. There are No signs everywhere. I'm yet to meet anyone I know voting Yes.

Something has really gone a miss with this.

I've not seen a No sign in my region, so thought the polls would be out in the other direction.

Wow, that surprises me about Canberra... I'd thought that typically redneck places like Qld and WA would be the places likely to not get the required majority for the referendum to pass.

What went wrong was simply that a concept which previously had bipartisan support (when Libs were in power, and doing the work to get it to this stage) suddenly didn't have that support when Libs lost government and are desperate for any political point they can score. And the very huggy Yes campaign didn't know what to do as a plan B.

 

[Someone2]

I’m voting No

 

[Chipmunk]

I've not seen a No sign in my region, so thought the polls would be out in the other direction.

Wow, that surprises me about Canberra... I'd thought that typically redneck places like Qld and WA would be the places likely to not get the required majority for the referendum to pass.

What went wrong was simply that a concept which previously had bipartisan support (when Libs were in power, and doing the work to get it to this stage) suddenly didn't have that support when Libs lost government and are desperate for any political point they can score. And the very huggy Yes campaign didn't know what to do as a plan B.

I think the inner suburbs (i.e. Electorate of Canberra) here would likely still be Yes. There is definitely a different feel out in the suburbs though. I was surprised to see the No signs around the place.

 

[Bandwagon]

What's unethical about accepting what is true?

Nothing by itself, but if we go back in the context of this conversation we're discussing the claim of "better off" or whatever.

So if we backtrack, it goes - that's just the way it was - they were getting invaded - lucky it was the Brits - Better off because of it.

 

[Bandwagon]

Do they really need us to vote yes so they can ask the First nation people how the government should work with them to better their lives?

No they don't. It can all be done through legislation.

In fact that's how it will be done, what voting for it to be a part of the constitution does is say it must be done,

By enshrining the voice in the constitution, all it does is ensure that the voice must exist, beyond that everything else is done the way everything else is always done, through legislation

That's what it boils down to, with all the noise and dumb shit flying about, all it's achieved is to confuse people about what is a very simple proposition.

 

[Gronk]

What's unethical about accepting what is true?

What’s wrong with accepting responsibility for the past, changing our constitution to recognise our First Nations people and consulting with them on matters that affect them. It’s called a fair go.

As Thomas Keneally said, our constitution and its authors aint as sacred as some people laud it to be, as it was very much written with racist undertones.

Think the constitution is sacred? Meet the men who helped write it | Thomas Keneally

Australia’s founding document was written by fallible, admirable men, limited by the unexamined prejudices of their time

www.theguardian.com

Section 25 of the constitution – as those three men and their fellow framed it – states that “if by the law of any State all persons of any race are disqualified from voting at elections for the more numerous house of the parliament of the state, then, in reckoning the number of people of the state or the commonwealth, persons of that race resident in that state shall not be counted.” This appalling clause, to tell the truth, was partly a sop to states like South Australia, exempting them from paying for the new federal government per head of Aboriginal inhabitant, and was influenced too by the then uncriticised view that Indigenous Australians would die out as a race. Yet it now reads like something belonging to another planet, not just another polity: the total denial of political attention to an entire race.

Of course in 1967 we were brave enough to fix this with a bipartisan referendum which got up by 91%.

My haven’t we changed since the fun loving 60’s.