OT: Current Affairs and Politics

[Gronk]

Im not asking ... they were doing all the promising to solve the issues when clearly its pretty f**kin hard to achieve. ..... so thats Albos f**k up by conflating the two issues as one

Yeah you did.

so come up with something concrete to show what/how/why its gonna solve before setting it in stone .... this is really not a unreasonable expectation

You have bought the Dutton rhetoric and are punishing Albo for not delivering the impossible. It’s only become an expectation by those who have been told that it should be. This seems to be a familiar topic today, especially by those who would have voted in alignment with the LNP anyway.

When the majority if people voted yes for SSM, nobody wasked to read the fine print, because they knew what the concept was fundamentally about and knew that their elected parliamentarians would deal with the nuts n bolts and passing the legislation.

 

[Chipmunk]

I went into 2 .... first to help older relos at theirs - there were probably 10 Yes campaigners outside and the usual 20-30 signs (some of which were AEC purple - high non english area, but whatever) ... second went to local school, 5 campaigners and again about 20-30 signs (no purple here, more english speaking area) ....... neither place had a single No person or sign.

Why didn't you just vote whilst you were at the first place?

 

[Happy MEel]

Here lies the problem. You are asking for the impossible outcome. When you place such a high bar and you know that it is unachievable, it becomes highly mischievous and that is exactly what Dutton knew.

The amendment read as follows


The proposed alteration to the constitution:


Point 3 means a lot and falls in line with everything else in the constitution. The constitution provides direction, however the government of the day writes the legislation to make it functional.

So you’re asking for Albanese to give you his legislation. Fine, but what if Dutton or Palmer or Hanson or Nathan Hindmarsh become PM next year ? It could literally all change. Which is their absolute right.

The only constant is that whoever is in power can’t eliminate the voice to parliament. Because it is ( was proposed to be) in the constitution.

Notwithstanding, no government is obligated to take direction from this committee and they certainly have no veto powers. No teeth whatsoever. It was creating a simple permanent conduit to be heard.

Then isn’t this just a difference of opinion on the threshold of detail/evidence/information needed in order to make a change to the constitution? The fact that we have had so few amendments over our history leads me to believe that the Australian public need to be pretty sure about whatever is being voted on in order for it to pass.

Just because your threshold is lower than somebody else’s doesn’t make you right and them wrong. The opposite is of course true as well.

How is it an impossible outcome when we could have had a voice set up already to see if it provides any sort of value before enshrining it into our constitution?

 

[hindy111]

It’s a bit like saying that people who seek meaningful action on climate change should walk everywhere otherwise how dare you.

That argument might work at the pub after a skinfull, but not in the real world.

I am a white guy who is in a way reasonably wealthy I guess compared to many. Often I feel a bit horrible about my pleasures or eating at fancy restaurants or going on holidays considering how poor we where going up. A guilty feeling.
And yes its unfair I got lucky with my choices where some friends in similar situations just didn't. It leaves me with a feeling of exactly that. Timing and luck is a huge part in life.

 

[strider]

Yeah you did.




You have bought the Dutton rhetoric and are punishing Albo for not delivering the impossible. It’s only become an expectation by those who have been told that it should be. This seems to be a familiar topic today, especially by those who would have voted in alignment with the LNP anyway.

When the majority if people voted yes for SSM, nobody wasked to read the fine print, because they knew what the concept was fundamentally about and knew that their elected parliamentarians would deal with the nuts n bolts and passing the legislation.

Where would i be without you to tell me what i think and how i got there.

I can guarantee you i give literally zero f**ks what Dutton says and never paid any attention to what he said through all this ... he is pointless dead weight ...... i think Albo f**ked up cos HE went off half cocked with stars in his eyes thinking how awesome its gonna be without thinking it through

 

[strider]

Why didn't you just vote whilst you were at the first place?

I planned to, but it was gonna just be a pain in the arse of filling in absentee forms - so i just said, its ok i will drive back home and do it after ... and it was obvious the AEC people agreed

I actually went looking for info on that the day before - and the AEC website just said, you can vote anywhere in your state .... and i thought, i dont think they have a book with 10 million peoples names, that aint gonna be easy .... then someone told me they had tablets at a pre-polling place and i thought maybe they spent the $360 million on something after all

 

[the phantom menace]

Then isn’t this just a difference of opinion on the threshold of detail/evidence/information in order to make a change to the constitution? The fact that we have had so few amendments over our history leads me to believe that the Australian public need to be pretty sure about whatever is being voted on in order for it to pass.

This is true. It's been literally decades since a successful referendum, and the expectations and needs for people to understand (trust) what their politicians are telling them have undoubtedly changed.

Only bipartisan support for a referendum question would/will allow the required messaging, info/detail etc to get through to the broad public - without the distraction and confusion (in this case) of all the Dutton-sanctioned political "noise"...

 

[the phantom menace]

Interesting - there must be an enormous closset somewhere with all the no campaigners. Thats or there simply wasnt any money sunk into it......

Uncle Clive says hi... I think it's more that the money sunk into the No campaign was used in less visible (and possibly more effective) ways than posters and t-shirts.

 

[Gronk]

I reckon Kosovo is Serbia. Thats what I reckon.

Me too, but it’s not.

From what I understand from my late FIL, Kosovo and its mountains, are so f**king fundamental in Serbia’s DNA.

In any event, the analogy stands. Kosovo has been part of Serbia from literally biblical times. Indeed even from what I can see, 6400bc.

Do Serbs deserve recognition in the the Kosovo constitution or is it tokenism? Should Serbs be heard ?

 

[TheRam]

White Christians usually go with the flow and don’t want to be ‘recognised.’
You can all laugh it up like phantom but we are only about 100 years or so from these small minorities wanting their own piece of Australia. Their own recognition. Happens all around Europe. Why do you think there was a Brexit? Paranoia?

Because garbage entered the country and wrecked the joint and the majority had enough.

The Aboriginal are Australians like all of us. They don’t need to be further divided with a voice. Tokenism at its highest.

I think this sort of re-enforces your statement even though the lunatics ones who are to blame will never admit to it and then blame everyone but themselves for the catastrophe.

 

[Gronk]

Yeah true, in hindsight he made a promise he had no control over keeping.

Did he promise to deliver or promise to ..

His victory speech.

Together we can and will establish a national anti-corruption commission. Together we can be a self-reliant, resilient nation, confident in our values and in our place in the world. And together we can embrace the Uluru Statement from the Heart.

"We can answer its patient, gracious call for a voice enshrined in our constitution. Because all of us ought to be proud that amongst our great multicultural society we count the oldest living continuous culture in the world. And I acknowledge Australia's next Indigenous Affairs Minister, Linda Burney, who is here.

Anthony Albanese's victory speech paid homage to his roots and Australia. Read the full speech

Addressing his supporters at Canterbury-Hurlstone Park RSL Club in his hometown of Sydney, Mr Albanese pledged to bring Australians together, saying he would lead a government "worthy of the people of Australia".

www.abc.net.au

 

[JokerEel]

https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/were-in-a-war-lidia-thorpes-next-steps-revealed-as-referendum-fails/news-story/66723a30b8dcf10609ac08201978bf1e

When Lidia is making more sense then Albo.. I think it's time for Albo to go...

 

[Happy MEel]

This is true. It's been literally decades since a successful referendum, and the expectations and needs for people to understand (trust) what their politicians are telling them have undoubtedly changed.

Only bipartisan support for a referendum question would/will allow the required messaging, info/detail etc to get through to the broad public - without the distraction and confusion (in this case) of all the Dutton-sanctioned political "noise"...

Agree with this mate but I also think blame needs to be placed at the hands of Albo and the labor government. It was pretty clear quite a few months ago that things were looking bleak and that people were calling for more information. Surely they’ve put some thought into what this body will look like if it got up. They could have started drip feeding some of this detail for their plans and that may have helped the Yes campaign.

 

[Chipmunk]

This is true. It's been literally decades since a successful referendum, and the expectations and needs for people to understand (trust) what their politicians are telling them have undoubtedly changed.

Only bipartisan support for a referendum question would/will allow the required messaging, info/detail etc to get through to the broad public - without the distraction and confusion (in this case) of all the Dutton-sanctioned political "noise"...

So, given the situation, there was two choices:
1. Dutton should've just agreed with whatever Albo wanted to do, or
2. Albo should've negotiated with Dutton on what the LNP would accept so it had bipartisan support

So, given the situation, Dutton was never going to agree with just whatever Albo wanted, so option 2 was the only way it was ever going to pass wasn't it.

 

[the phantom menace]

Agree with this mate but I also think blame needs to be placed at the hands of Albo and the labor government. It was pretty clear quite a few months ago that things were looking bleak and that people were calling for more information. Surely they’ve put some thought into what this body will look like if it got up. They could have started drip feeding some of this detail for their plans and that may have helped the Yes campaign.

Agree generally. But as mentioned earlier I think Albo's approach (mistake?) was genuinely wanting it (and the detail) to be led by the Indigenous representatives behind it/Uluru Statement, rather than telling them how those things needed to be.

Naive probably, in the face of the opposition mounted by desperate Dutton post-April. And in Albo's speech last night he acknowledged he has to wear his share of blame.

 

[the phantom menace]

So, given the situation, there was two choices:
1. Dutton should've just agreed with whatever Albo wanted to do, or
2. Albo should've negotiated with Dutton on what the LNP would accept so it had bipartisan support

So, given the situation, Dutton was never going to agree with just whatever Albo wanted, so option 2 was the only way it was ever going to pass wasn't it.

Agree, but I think that process had been well underway, and to a point of reasonably understood acceptability, when Julian Lesser was the LNP shadow minister responsible?

Then Dutton lost Alan Tudge's old seat, and turned the tables (and Lesser quit his shadow minister posts on principle to continue to support Yes).

 

[Chipmunk]

Agree, but I think that process had been well underway, and to a point of reasonably understood acceptability, when Julian Lesser was the LNP shadow minister responsible?

Then Dutton lost Alan Tudge's old seat, and turned the tables (and Lesser quit his shadow minister posts on principle to continue to support Yes).

There did seem to be an inflection point that changed the course.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

@Poupou Escobar s conservative immigrants were a factor in the burbs.

He nailed that one, due is due.

Which is why the Yes campaign tried to make it about white colonisation. But immigrants are smart enough to know they also benefit from it. Attempts to roll back colonisation hurt them too.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

It’s a bit like saying that people who seek meaningful action on climate change should walk everywhere otherwise how dare you.

That argument might work at the pub after a skinfull, but not in the real world.

You’re either willing to make sacrifices or you expect other people to make them for you. Rich people in favour of carbon tax are only in favour of costs they can afford. Whether others can afford them is a non issue for these merkins. Let them eat cake.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Wedge politics is not new or clever.

Like pushing minority issues to pit the working class against each other?