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Our Young Guns v Others

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
15,213
This thread is now just a bunch of boomers saying that the kids are lazy and that’s why they’re not making first grade.

Maybe the reason that we as a club are completely f**ked is because our board and coach are reflective of this section of our fan base.
FFS you inferred that Hook had his favourites and therefore the kids were not selected and as a result they we’re demotivated and you asked how do you motivate them under those circumstances

So if your scenario is correct and they need motivation to perform then they are the wrong players to have at the club as in your scenario they are choosing not to put in

I brokered a different scenario in that simply out they are not good enough and we have overrated them not out of anything other than hope and frustration.

So IMI and obviously others this is not about Boomers bla bla bla it’s about performance or lack their of.

Simple answer is if you want to play 1st grade be really dominant in reserve grade and be very motivated at training.
 

SBD82

Coach
Messages
16,044
Just to clarify, for everyone playing at home.

The term boomer has evolved in its meaning. It’s use as a pejorative isn’t aimed at the entire age demographic, and can be applied to people outside that demographic.

It’s basically a shorthand way to refer to people who make sweeping assumptions and negatively stereotype young people (eg @Smacka ‘s post above).

I’m fully aware that the baby boomer generation is comprised of many different kinds of people, some of whom don’t subscribe to these archaic views at all. I apologise if some of you reading this fall into that category and thought I was referring to you.
 
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SBD82

Coach
Messages
16,044
FFS you inferred that Hook had his favourites and therefore the kids were not selected and as a result they we’re demotivated and you asked how do you motivate them under those circumstances

So if your scenario is correct and they need motivation to perform then they are the wrong players to have at the club as in your scenario they are choosing not to put in

I brokered a different scenario in that simply out they are not good enough and we have overrated them not out of anything other than hope and frustration.

So IMI and obviously others this is not about Boomers bla bla bla it’s about performance or lack their of.

Simple answer is if you want to play 1st grade be really dominant in reserve grade and be very motivated at training.
Seems my initial post wasn’t worded well and caused confusion. But could you stop trying to tell me what I was saying? I’ve tried to clarify several times now.

I said that you can’t encourage young players to buy into a system of merit when there are clear examples of players being picked that don’t merit selection.

Try this (and forget about your preconceived notions of what I’m trying to say).

If you entered a workplace where the board and all of the employees were incapable, and then you were told that the only way to get promoted is to be capable, what would you think? Would you be able to believe what you were told?
 

dannyt

Coach
Messages
11,546
Seems my initial post wasn’t worded well and caused confusion. But could you stop trying to tell me what I was saying? I’ve tried to clarify several times now.

I said that you can’t encourage young players to buy into a system of merit when there are clear examples of players being picked that don’t merit selection.

Try this (and forget about your preconceived notions of what I’m trying to say).

If you entered a workplace where the board and all of the employees were incapable, and then you were told that the only way to get promoted is to be capable, what would you think? Would you be able to believe what you were told?
Nice and clear, but perhaps you should have began with "What I meant to say is that..."
 

dannyt

Coach
Messages
11,546
Seems my initial post wasn’t worded well and caused confusion. But could you stop trying to tell me what I was saying? I’ve tried to clarify several times now.

I said that you can’t encourage young players to buy into a system of merit when there are clear examples of players being picked that don’t merit selection.

Try this (and forget about your preconceived notions of what I’m trying to say).

If you entered a workplace where the board and all of the employees were incapable, and then you were told that the only way to get promoted is to be capable, what would you think? Would you be able to believe what you were told?
Ok boomer ;)

Regarding your example.

If it were me in that situation, and baring in my mind I regard myself as Generation X, I would begin my doing my job to the best of my ability. I would then assess the situation, and if I was unhappy where I was, I would looking at moving.

Now I'm not sure how I would have treated the same situation say 33 years ago when I was just starting my professional career. Perhaps I would just spit the dummy and go through another period of teenage-angst, or just simply walk away. Not sure. I really can't fathom what I was thinking all those years ago...
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
15,213
Seems my initial post wasn’t worded well and caused confusion. But could you stop trying to tell me what I was saying? I’ve tried to clarify several times now.

I said that you can’t encourage young players to buy into a system of merit when there are clear examples of players being picked that don’t merit selection.

Try this (and forget about your preconceived notions of what I’m trying to say).

If you entered a workplace where the board and all of the employees were incapable, and then you were told that the only way to get promoted is to be capable, what would you think? Would you be able to believe what you were told?
In I would only have doubts after I had clearly and repeatedly shown I was more capable than those around and above me.

I wouldn’t expect them to just accept that I am more capable with no proof and if they did I would have to question their logic and then work out if I want to get on the gravy train or keep working hard and hopefully get poached and promoted by another organisation.

As I said elsewhere out of all the juniors we have let go / lost in recent years other than Robson and Garrick (who was totally bagged and dismissed by many in this place) who has succeeded in better coached clubs?

Out of desperation / panic / frustration many want to see the juniors simply put into 1st grade too see what they can do and I understand it but don’t subscribe to it unless they have earned it.
 

SBD82

Coach
Messages
16,044
In I would only have doubts after I had clearly and repeatedly shown I was more capable than those around and above me.

I wouldn’t expect them to just accept that I am more capable with no proof and if they did I would have to question their logic and then work out if I want to get on the gravy train or keep working hard and hopefully get poached and promoted by another organisation.

As I said elsewhere out of all the juniors we have let go / lost in recent years other than Robson and Garrick (who was totally bagged and dismissed by many in this place) who has succeeded in better coached clubs?

Out of desperation / panic / frustration many want to see the juniors simply put into 1st grade too see what they can do and I understand it but don’t subscribe to it unless they have earned it.
Would it impact you at all when you are told to go the extra mile, but you see the rest of the employees cutting corners?

I’d like to think that I could rise above that, and I’d make a conscious effort to try. But I think there’d be something in the back of my brain telling me that the rest of the blokes are bludging without being punished, so that’s the standard that’s expected.
 

dannyt

Coach
Messages
11,546
I think that there are a lot of valid points raised on this thread.

My 2c, for FWIW:
- I like the idea that FG positions are, for the main, earned and not just given.
- My question is are young players being given the appropriate mentoring and pathways during their junior years to prepare them for FG?

EDIT: The answer to my above question appears to be yes for some players, such as Garrick, Robson, and Hastings. The problem is we lost them. Is talent ID an issue? Other clubs seem to do this much better than us.
 
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SBD82

Coach
Messages
16,044
On a more serious note, I think that there are a lot of valid points raised on this thread.

FWIW:
- I like the idea that FG positions are, for the main, earned and not just given.
- My question is are young players being given the appropriate mentoring and pathways during the junior years to make them FG standard?
I think that’s an incredibly important point.

To go back to the workplace analogy, when one employee is failing in a group of successful ones, it’s generally an issue with the employee (could be any number of factors and it could be as simple as them just not being suited to the role or organisation).

When new employees are failing en masse over a sustained period of time, the issue is generally structural.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
15,213
Would it impact you at all when you are told to go the extra mile, but you see the rest of the employees cutting corners?

I’d like to think that I could rise above that, and I’d make a conscious effort to try. But I think there’d be something in the back of my brain telling me that the rest of the blokes are bludging without being punished, so that’s the standard that’s expected.
I’m not sure that 1st grade is “bludging” I think they are severely limited and we have overrated them.
Their results are annoying as are the reserve grade results.
We as supporters then look for a host of reasons to try and rationalise it like “it’s a good squad Bellyache could get into the top 4” or “Robbo could get our juniors into the top grade wuuckly0 bla bla bla
Simple fact is we are low on quality troops and no one is banging any doors down saying look at me I’m the real deal.

Our pride, talking up of, love of, fanaticism with the Big Red V unfortunately sometimes borders on hubris.
 

Illusion

Juniors
Messages
1,575
OK I see it like this put Woods , Macca , Bird , Lomax , McGuire etc one at a time in NSW Cup will they shine ? Don't think so , the game is different in a lot of ways , so Hook is in a big hole he should have given Sloan , Sully , at least time in top grade to work out what is needed to go forward ..... Because it ain't happening in lower grade .....
 

SBD82

Coach
Messages
16,044
I’m not sure that 1st grade is “bludging” I think they are severely limited and we have overrated them.
Their results are annoying as are the reserve grade results.
We as supporters then look for a host of reasons to try and rationalise it like “it’s a good squad Bellyache could get into the top 4” or “Robbo could get our juniors into the top grade wuuckly0 bla bla bla
Simple fact is we are low on quality troops and no one is banging any doors down saying look at me I’m the real deal.

Our pride, talking up of, love of, fanaticism with the Big Red V unfortunately sometimes borders on hubris.
I watch blokes like Woods and Macca make half hearted attempts to cover the inside, and from the outside looking in it looks like they’re bludging.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
15,213
I watch blokes like Woods and Macca make half hearted attempts to cover the inside, and from the outside looking in it looks like they’re bludging.
I watch players like Kerr, Ford, Burns make half hearted attempts to cover the inside and from outside looking in it looks to like they are trying but they aren’t vey good footballers in this aspect of the game.
 

Mojo

Juniors
Messages
1,279
So, we bought a few older players because we expected the young talent to come through. We saved money by doing so, apparently. The young talents haven't hit their straps quite the way we anticipated. So now we're telling ourselves that our young guys aren't ready and we're stuck with running our old dudes until they're absolutely exhausted. At this point in time, we're in a pretty desperate state. However, there are two positives for the medium term. 1. we still have crop of young players coming through, and 2. we must have some sort of money saved for buying some talented players in the future. There's nothing to be gained by bagging any of the young players or the old crocks for that matter. We've got all our eggs in the retention basket and that has to remain our focus. God forbid that it gets a hole in it.
 

Dragon David

Bench
Messages
4,819
So, we bought a few older players because we expected the young talent to come through. We saved money by doing so, apparently. The young talents haven't hit their straps quite the way we anticipated. So now we're telling ourselves that our young guys aren't ready and we're stuck with running our old dudes until they're absolutely exhausted. At this point in time, we're in a pretty desperate state. However, there are two positives for the medium term. 1. we still have crop of young players coming through, and 2. we must have some sort of money saved for buying some talented players in the future. There's nothing to be gained by bagging any of the young players or the old crocks for that matter. We've got all our eggs in the retention basket and that has to remain our focus. God forbid that it gets a hole in it.
You are right there Mojo. Got to now live with things as they are and no use bagging anymore because we have bagged enough and we still have the same. We keep on going around in circles and coming back to the same thing like ground hog day.

Good or bad, the Dragons are our team to follow when all is said and done.
 

denis preston

First Grade
Messages
7,246
So, we bought a few older players because we expected the young talent to come through. We saved money by doing so, apparently. The young talents haven't hit their straps quite the way we anticipated. So now we're telling ourselves that our young guys aren't ready and we're stuck with running our old dudes until they're absolutely exhausted. At this point in time, we're in a pretty desperate state. However, there are two positives for the medium term. 1. we still have crop of young players coming through, and 2. we must have some sort of money saved for buying some talented players in the future. There's nothing to be gained by bagging any of the young players or the old crocks for that matter. We've got all our eggs in the retention basket and that has to remain our focus. God forbid that it gets a hole in it.
Good point Mojo. I hope our thoughts that we have too many players not NRL standard but no money to replace them is really that there is no one available in the market to spend it on. Common sense would say due to high paid players leaving and reduced contract say for Hunt we have a war chest coming up. I just hope this is the case and not that we are paying very high contracts to players past it or not performing ( eg Debellin playing well but not 800k worth, Bird past it on 650k a year ? ) Above all of this is the coaching of course. Get a good team together and it can make a huge difference.
 

Dragon David

Bench
Messages
4,819
Good point Mojo. I hope our thoughts that we have too many players not NRL standard but no money to replace them is really that there is no one available in the market to spend it on. Common sense would say due to high paid players leaving and reduced contract say for Hunt we have a war chest coming up. I just hope this is the case and not that we are paying very high contracts to players past it or not performing ( eg Debellin playing well but not 800k worth, Bird past it on 650k a year ? ) Above all of this is the coaching of course. Get a good team together and it can make a huge difference.
We need a good man manager and mentors as well for the young ones in particular and even the older ones need this. I think Hook lacks this so much.

Besides this, the whole outfit has somehow lost direction. We are in some crisis with lack of player depth when before a ball was kicked this year, the purpose of signing a lot of guys was to provide depth. That thought was fine, but if the players you get are second rate you don't have much depth which has been proven.

I know someone who has said that Tyrell is getting a lot of outside mentoring and hopefully the other young ones are also getting this. What I have heard is that Tyrell feels that the future at the Dragons is with the young ones coming through once the older ones move on or hang up their boots in the next year or so.

I know it is still way off yet, but things will turn around for the better I feel sure.
 

KogarahWarrior

Juniors
Messages
648
I watch players like Kerr, Ford, Burns make half hearted attempts to cover the inside and from outside looking in it looks to like they are trying but they aren’t vey good footballers in this aspect of the game.
But watch them go to the Melbourne Storm and become world beaters.

These blokes aren't brought into first grade for no reason, the people who select them aren't THAT stupid. They are identified to have the talent as they've been seen to do some incredible things. But after that and you meet captain fossil and his team of fossils your development starts to go backwards or it stagnates.
 

SBD82

Coach
Messages
16,044
I watch players like Kerr, Ford, Burns make half hearted attempts to cover the inside and from outside looking in it looks to like they are trying but they aren’t vey good footballers in this aspect of the game.
I don’t see a lack of effort from any of the players that you’ve named. But they do look lost sometimes.

They’re brought into a terrible defensive system. We are the only team in the comp that runs an “on your man” defensive pattern. No wonder the young players fail to adapt. We’re playing 90’s footy in the 2020s.
 

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