Parramatta Stadium Rebuild and other stuff

[Suitman]

I was until recently super pissed that the public transport links to the Fancy Bird Airport were garbarge, until I realised that domestic and international travel for punters is not its core business. Makes sense why they are not rushing into metro-at-the-door now.

Huh?

 

[Chipmunk]

That's true. Sydney AP has capacity for more flights, and they will take what they can get but SYD capacity will run out eventually. It is why we have been talking about a 2nd Sydney AP since the 70's. That's f**king 50 years ago.
Finally we got govt's that had the balls to do something about the inevitable demand for a 2nd AP.
Not only the AP, but all the supporting infrastructure to ensure it is viable.

There wasn't really the demand for it 50 years ago though to be fair.

 

[Suitman]

I'm curious on the international passenger flights. Obviously not a lot of tourists coming to Australia to visit Western Sydney. Although having said that, the majority of passengers in and out of Australian international flights are in fact....Australians.

You are missing a few points here.

- I reckon a fair slab of passengers that go to Bali, Fiji etc are from Western Sydney.
- Who says that international passengers that arrive at WSA are wanting to visit Western Sydney?
It might just be that cheaper fares are available to WSA. Then, there'll be a fast metro to St Mary's and direct train to the city.

It's about time that SYD had some competition because they have been screwing passengers for decades with their monopoly.

 

[Suitman]

There wasn't really the demand for it 50 years ago though to be fair.

There must have been because they wouldn't have been proposing it.
It's typical Australia that it has taken 50 years to come to fruition.

Gough Whitlam wanted an airport at Galston, and Wilton was another other option thrown around by govt's.
Maybe it has been best that we procrastinated for 50 years because there is no doubt that Badgery's Creek was the best option.

 

[Suitman]

There must have been because they wouldn't have been proposing it.
It's typical Australia that it has taken 50 years to come to fruition.

Gough Whitlam wanted an airport at Galston, and Wilton was another other option thrown around by govt's.
Maybe it has been best that we procrastinated for 50 years because there is no doubt that Badgery's Creek was the best option.

High Speed Rail is the same shite that we keep talking about but do nothing besides spend hundreds of millions on investigations.
In the meantime, the rest of the world just leaves us behind and builds it.
It's embarrassing.

 

[Chipmunk]

You are missing a few points here.

- I reckon a fair slab of passengers that go to Bali, Fiji etc are from Western Sydney.
- Who says that international passengers that arrive at WSA are wanting to visit Western Sydney?
It might just be that cheaper fares are available to WSA. Then, there'll be a fast metro to St Mary's and direct train to the city.

It's about time that SYD had some competition because they have been screwing passengers for decades with their monopoly.

Fair points on the population of Western Sydney.

There is also a convenience cost to factor in also.

I'm wondering if it will end up being similar to the many other cities of the world who have two airports. One primarily for full service airlines and the other for the low cost airlines.

 

[Chipmunk]

There must have been because they wouldn't have been proposing it.
It's typical Australia that it has taken 50 years to come to fruition.

Gough Whitlam wanted an airport at Galston, and Wilton was another other option thrown around by govt's.
Maybe it has been best that we procrastinated for 50 years because there is no doubt that Badgery's Creek was the best option.

Well if the demand has been there why didn't a company put up the money and build it at some stage over those 50 years?

That still hasn't happened. The Government is the one paying for it with the intention to sell it eventually...Interestingly the lessors of Sydney Airport was offered it and said no. What does that tell you about the potential expected future profits if someone who has a current monopoly doesn't want to buy the new competition to maintain their monopoly?

 

[Suitman]

Fair points on the population of Western Sydney.

There is also a convenience cost to factor in also.

I'm wondering if it will end up being similar to the many other cities of the world who have two airports. One primarily for full service airlines and the other for the low cost airlines.

That will most certainly happen initially.
It will grow after starting slowly.

I know you like to travel so I wouldn't be surprised that at some stage, you will fly out of WSA.

 

[Suitman]

Well if the demand has been there why didn't a company put up the money and build it at some stage over those 50 years?

That still hasn't happened. The Government is the one paying for it with the intention to sell it eventually...Interestingly the lessors of Sydney Airport was offered it and said no. What does that tell you about the potential expected future profits if someone who has a current monopoly doesn't want to buy the new competition to maintain their monopoly?

They didn't want competition and couldn't afford the spend to build it themselves.
I wouldn't be surprised if they bought it in the future, after the govt have built it and put all the money into the infrastructure.

 

[Chipmunk]

High Speed Rail is the same shite that we keep talking about but do nothing besides spend hundreds of millions on investigations.
In the meantime, the rest of the world just leaves us behind and builds it.
It's embarrassing.

High Speed Rail works where it does due to factors that aren't really conducive here in Australia.

Where is anyone building High Speed Rail in a country the size of Australia with a similar population base?

 

[Chipmunk]

That will most certainly happen initially.
It will grow after starting slowly.

I know you like to travel so I wouldn't be surprised that at some stage, you will fly out of WSA.

That's entirely probable for me personally, it would be the same distance for me to WSA as it would be to SYD. The advantage of SYD at present is that there is a coach every hour on the hour that drops me at the front door of SYD on its way to Central Station. At some point you'd think there will be a similar service through WSA though.

If I'm flying from Canberra I prefer to fly through Melbourne anyway, so that is unlikely to change either way.

 

[Suitman]

High Speed Rail works where it does due to factors that aren't really conducive here in Australia.

Where is anyone building High Speed Rail in a country the size of Australia with a similar population base?

Sydney - Melbourne in 3 hours via HSR would do very well if priced competively with airlines.
Like WSA, we just don't have the balls to make such big infrastructure decisions.
A HSR link between 2 cities of 5 million +is more than viable.
Stops at Canberra and Albury/Wodonga would (amongst others like Goulburn, Wagga and Wangaratta) turbo charge local economies.

Instead, we are spending $400 billion on submarines.

 

[Chipmunk]

Sydney - Melbourne in 3 hours via HSR would do very well if priced competively with airlines.
Like WSA, we just don't have the balls to make such big infrastructure decisions.
A HSR link between 2 cities of 5 million +is more than viable.
Stops at Canberra and Albury/Wodonga would (amongst others like Goulburn, Wagga and Wangaratta) turbo charge local economies.

Instead, we are spending $400 billion on submarines.

I don't disagree with those thoughts, but what's another example of two 5 million population bases that are 900km apart with only a maximum of 1 million people in between who currently has high speed rail?

 

[Suitman]

I don't disagree with those thoughts, but what's another example of two 5 million population bases that are 900km apart with only a maximum of 1 million people in between who currently has high speed rail?

Barcelona to Madrid.
Barcelona has less than 2 million population. There's f**k all in between. They run heaps of HSR trains between the two cities daily.

 

[Gronk]

Huh?

You can't expect families to use public transport to get to the new airport if the heavy rail has nowhere for bags etc. Give them dedicated airport trains from Castle Hill or Bankstown or Campbelltown and they will embrace it. Until then they won't use it.

Who uses the Dom / International stations at Kingsford Smith ? Not many. Even people who could catch country trains still get mini bus in.

 

[Chipmunk]

Barcelona to Madrid.
Barcelona has less than 2 million population. There's f**k all in between. They run heaps of HSR trains between the two cities daily.

On the surface that sounds great, but lets take a closer look at the numbers for this.

There is only 600km between Barcelona and Madrid (I'd say it's more comparable Sydney to Albury)
Spain fits twice the population of Australia into something the size of NSW.
Catalonia (the region Barcelona is in) alone has a population base about the same size of NSW.
Greater Madrid has a population base around 7 million
The two regions between Catalonia and Madrid, Castilla–La Mancha and Aragon, the f**k all in between as you put it, have a combined population of well over 3 million.

For competition there is well under 20 flights per day in each direction. In comparison, Sydney to Melbourne by plane has at least 50 flights per day and is the top five busiest air routes in the world.

Would the cost to get a fast train between Sydney and Melbourne ever be cheaper than flying?

To run high speed rail between Sydney and Melbourne, and make it cost effective, you'd need at least 5 Canberra's in between.

​

 

[Suitman]

On the surface that sounds great, but lets take a closer look at the numbers for this.

There is only 600km between Barcelona and Madrid (I'd say it's more comparable Sydney to Albury)
Spain fits twice the population of Australia into something the size of NSW.
Catalonia (the region Barcelona is in) alone has a population base about the same size of NSW.
Greater Madrid has a population base around 7 million
The two regions between Catalonia and Madrid, Castilla–La Mancha and Aragon, the f**k all in between as you put it, have a combined population of well over 3 million.

For competition there is well under 20 flights per day in each direction. In comparison, Sydney to Melbourne by plane has at least 50 flights per day and is the top five busiest air routes in the world.

Would the cost to get a fast train between Sydney and Melbourne ever be cheaper than flying?

To run high speed rail between Sydney and Melbourne, and make it cost effective, you'd need at least 5 Canberra's in between.

​

That's true to an extent.
But with HSR we could have that.
It's such negative thinking in this country to accept our current rail system. It has been run down for decades.
Sydney - Melbourne is currently 12 hours by rail. That is shocking and hardly encourages anyone to use it.
I'm not sure that you'd need 5 Canberra's between Sydney and Melbourne.
Just build HSR, make the trip 3 hrs and I've no doubt that the line would compete with the airlines.

 

[Suitman]

You can't expect families to use public transport to get to the new airport if the heavy rail has nowhere for bags etc. Give them dedicated airport trains from Castle Hill or Bankstown or Campbelltown and they will embrace it. Until then they won't use it.

Who uses the Dom / International stations at Kingsford Smith ? Not many. Even people who could catch country trains still get mini bus in.

Sorry, but that is coming from someone who lives in the inner city.
Have you forgotten about the millions on passengers a year that come from outer suburbs or even overseas that need rail transport to/from the airport?
I'll actually be one of them in 4 weeks. I'll be getting a 4.53 am metro train to get to SYD for an early flight to Melbourne.
I agree that the metro lines need to be better connected to WSA. Not confident though that this govt will do anything to improve that.

 

[Chipmunk]

That's true to an extent.
But with HSR we could have that.
It's such negative thinking in this country to accept our current rail system. It has been run down for decades.
Sydney - Melbourne is currently 12 hours by rail. That is shocking and hardly encourages anyone to use it.
I'm not sure that you'd need 5 Canberra's between Sydney and Melbourne.
Just build HSR, make the trip 3 hrs and I've no doubt that the line would compete with the airlines.

You also have 80 million international tourists visit Spain each year. Australia only 7 million. I suspect twice as many tourists would want to travel between Barcelona and Madrid than would visit everywhere in Australia.

The price for flights on the Sydney to Melbourne flights don't seem that expensive for the 1.5 hour flight.

Even the USA, with 15 times the population of Australia in a similar size land mass, has struggled with introducing high speed rail. They would likely struggle against the airlines also. If the USA don't have it, then I can't see it working here.

I can't see it ever doing the trip in 3 hours. To justify the cost it would have to include Canberra...there is a significant mountain range between Canberra and Melbourne that would add to the cost of construction, otherwise you'd need to go up to Yass to get around that.

I could probably see a justification for high speed rail between say 1 hour north of Newcastle and 1 hour south of Wollongong. But I'm not sure how much time you'd take off the trip. The people of this country clearly want to live in the bigger cities or by the water...I can't see that changing.

 

[Suitman]

You also have 80 million international tourists visit Spain each year. Australia only 7 million. I suspect twice as many tourists would want to travel between Barcelona and Madrid than would visit everywhere in Australia.

The price for flights on the Sydney to Melbourne flights don't seem that expensive for the 1.5 hour flight.

Even the USA, with 15 times the population of Australia in a similar size land mass, has struggled with introducing high speed rail. They would likely struggle against the airlines also. If the USA don't have it, then I can't see it working here.

I can't see it ever doing the trip in 3 hours. To justify the cost it would have to include Canberra...there is a significant mountain range between Canberra and Melbourne that would add to the cost of construction, otherwise you'd need to go up to Yass to get around that.

I could probably see a justification for high speed rail between say 1 hour north of Newcastle and 1 hour south of Wollongong. But I'm not sure how much time you'd take off the trip.

The USA is hardly a fine example for High-Speed Rail. The rest of their rail system is a laugh to start with.
It's as bad as ours.
The trip to Melbourne in 3 hours would be easily achieved if built properly. We're talking about 300 km/h HSR here.
Unfortunately, we ain't China.