Peter Beatte NRL 360 - expansion

[Stallion]

$'s are the problem. The game is probably close to topping out on its revenue unless something drastic happens around digital in the future but unlikely. So it then becomes how does the NRL pay for extra clubs when there are so many mouths to feed and with finite resources? Every time it adds a club it adds around $15-20million to its expenditure line. Even with the big grant increase half of clubs are still claiming poverty, making the NRL very nervous about inviting more mouths to the table. We are very much stuck in a catch 22 and have been for over a decade now. We need to grow but cant afford to grow.
Maybe the answer is like Aleague where you put a massive purchase price on a new license to help cover the short term costs, or maybe we need to reduce the current mouths, or maybe we stay as we are and live with what we've got. Its not easy decisions and will be very interesting to see what what the latest NRL expansion review comes out with at the end of the year.

Prudent expansion with business partners involved should net further income streams and greater revenue? So using the too smaller pie theory is not relevant. Positivity rather than negativity PR. Genuine growth instead of dilution PR. Maintaining core fan markets and extending the games reach out of genuine additional clubs outside of Sydney can be a money spinner and developmentally positive for the code. Imploding the competition is not necessary.

 

[tri_colours]

The surplus in 18 is part of the 5 year revenue cycle. Last time we had major surpluses in yr 1 & 2 then losses in yr3-5.

Yr 1 $45mill surplus
Yr 2 $21mill surplus
Yr 3 $8mill loss
Yr 4 $2.6mill loss
Yr 5 $3.7mill loss

plus around $15mill losses consolidated on bailing clubs and state leagues out. That was on a revenue of $1.665bill

Dont get me wrong the NRL has more income now than it could have dreamed about in 1995 (could you imagine the game back then thinking it would one day reach $500mill a year income?) but it seems to be spending it all and then some. However if the NRL is legit about not bailing clubs out then expense of carrying clubs we have seen in last 5 years wont be there.

And the clubs that have had to bailed out or have had to get financial assistance from the NRL in this time were Newcastle, Gold Coast and the merged West Tigers.

 

[Perth Red]

Prudent expansion with business partners involved should net further income streams and greater revenue? So using the too smaller pie theory is not relevant. Positivity rather than negativity PR. Genuine growth instead of dilution PR. Maintaining core fan markets and extending the games reach out of genuine additional clubs outside of Sydney can be a money spinner and developmentally positive for the code. Imploding the competition is not necessary.

You would hope so but the NRL hasn't yet expanded so you have to question if it can net the $30-40mil extra revenue a year a two club expansion requires and if the NRL has the skills to actually achieve it if it can. If the answer is yes I wonder why we have been sat on our hands for 11 years since the time became ripe for expansion into new markets?

 

[Stallion]

You would hope so but the NRL hasn't yet expanded so you have to question if it can net the $30-40mil extra revenue a year a two club expansion requires and if the NRL has the skills to actually achieve it if it can. If the answer is yes I wonder why we have been sat on our hands for 11 years since the time became ripe for expansion into new markets?

Yes. Completely agree with your sentiment PR. I believe that the administration has been incompetent and following a 'containment ' ethos promoted by individuals within the league that are not necessarily there for the genuine growth of the code. ( a bit like an enemy from within scenario) .

 

[flippikat]

Can the comp support 24 teams， because i count at least half a dozen expansion areas that need teams.

Do we just forget those areas? Do we just keep increasing the number of clubs until the comp collapses? Does Sydney need 9 clubs when every other city seems to do fine with 1?

Precisely *this*. There's plenty of great expansion options that can be ready within decade. Perth & Brisbane 2 can surely be ready within 2 to 3 years. Adelaide, Brisbane 3, Melbourne 2 & New Zealand 2 within 8 years.

And that's not even considering a real golden goose - a second Perth team, which would mean a late-night timeslot nearly every weekend.

Sure, you can be optimistic & think that the competition can expand it's player & sponsor base to accomodate it all.. BUT that's going to take a LONG TIME if it happens, and I fear we don't that much time. AFL are light-years ahead, and A-League are making big strides too.

We need to make tough calls before the Big Bash League get on their expansion drive, and put even more pressure on the sponsorship market.

 

[Stallion]

Precisely *this*. There's plenty of great expansion options that can be ready within decade. Perth & Brisbane 2 can surely be ready within 2 to 3 years. Adelaide, Brisbane 3, Melbourne 2 & New Zealand 2 within 8 years.

And that's not even considering a real golden goose - a second Perth team, which would mean a late-night timeslot nearly every weekend.

Sure, you can be optimistic & think that the competition can expand it's player & sponsor base to accomodate it all.. BUT that's going to take a LONG TIME if it happens, and I fear we don't that much time. AFL are light-years ahead, and A-League are making big strides too.

We need to make tough calls before the Big Bash League get on their expansion drive, and put even more pressure on the sponsorship market.

Notable the AFL have an 18 teamy comp now. Sadly rugby league had a twenty team competition just over twenty years ago. And then disaster conspired against the progress.

 

[The Great Dane]

Precisely *this*. There's plenty of great expansion options that can be ready within decade. Perth & Brisbane 2 can surely be ready within 2 to 3 years. Adelaide, Brisbane 3, Melbourne 2 & New Zealand 2 within 8 years.

And that's not even considering a real golden goose - a second Perth team, which would mean a late-night timeslot nearly every weekend.

Sure, you can be optimistic & think that the competition can expand it's player & sponsor base to accomodate it all.. BUT that's going to take a LONG TIME if it happens, and I fear we don't that much time. AFL are light-years ahead, and A-League are making big strides too.

We need to make tough calls before the Big Bash League get on their expansion drive, and put even more pressure on the sponsorship market.

Here in lies the real problem!

Going at their current rate, by the time that the NRL has capitalised on opportunities that are currently available to them it'll be at least 2060! And that is assuming that those current opportunities will wait around until the NRL bothers to capitalise on them, which most of them won't!

The problem with that is that the market can't and won't stand still and wait for them to catch up, so while the NRL are standing around with their flaccid dicks in their hands waiting for the clubs that they currently have (particularly the ones in Sydney) to become sustainable when it's never going to happen, everybody else will be forging on ahead taking all the opportunities that are on the table. So by the time the NRL have caught up to where they could have been (and should have been) within the next decade to a decade and a half, all the opportunities that will present themselves in the future will have come and gone.

The NRL is like a sprinter with a necrotic toe, the pain from the toe is slowing them down to a crawl, if they cut it off they'd have a chance of winning the race, but they refuse to cut it off cause they are attached to it. The only way that the NRL catches up now is if they cut off the necrotic toe that is the overcrowded market in Sydney and rationalise Sydney thus creating room for a bunch of new clubs from new markets to join the competition in quick succession...

 

[The Great Dane]

Notable the AFL have an 18 teamy comp now. Sadly rugby league had a twenty team competition just over twenty years ago. And then disaster conspired against the progress.

A twenty team competition that wasn't sustainable...

 

[flippikat]

Here in lies the real problem!

Going at their current rate, by the time that the NRL has capitalised on opportunities that are currently available to them it'll be at least 2060! And that is assuming that those current opportunities will wait around until the NRL bothers to capitalise on them, which most of them won't!

.

We had the time to grow the game AND keep traditional clubs (If that was ever feasible in the long run) in the 1980s and 1990s.. at the time when AFL was doing the same. We don't have that luxury of time now.

 

[Stallion]

A twenty team competition that wasn't sustainable...

The twenty team comp that was shafted by mistaken logic! Straight from Ken Arthurson's mouth !(Interview on Sterlo:Fox League) Your dilution stance reeks of disrespect and a continued theme of whiteanting the most popular rugbyleague competition on Earth. It's amazing we get the constructive proactive discourse happening then someone like yourself comes in with destructive logic. Seeing the code collapse like a deck of cards is not what proactive discourse is about. I suggest you keep playing 'strip poker ' with yourself!

 

[Stallion]

A twenty team competition that wasn't sustainable...

Lol. And the criteria for judging this flawed logic(carving up the existing clubs) was hopeless. Great clubs with magnificent history and 'latent' support (which you obviously don't count) were shafted. It's clear there are people whom want to see the code grow without implosion and there are those that support weakening the code. Genuine growth is positive for the code and it's fans. Dilution is purely destructive.

 

[The Great Dane]

The twenty team comp that was shafted by mistaken logic!

Canberra, Cronulla, Newcastle, Canterbury, North Sydney, Auckland, Western Reds, Illawarra, Western Suburbs, Penrith, Balmain, South Queensland, Gold Coast, South Sydney, and North Queensland, that's 15 clubs out of a 20 club competition all of whom were speeding towards bankruptcy or at least extreme financial problems, it's likely that most of them would have gone broke before 2005...

I'm afraid that three quarters of the competition going down the gurgler is as close to a cut and dried example of an unsustainable competition that exists, no mistaken logic, implosion thinking, or whatever other BS you want to crap on about needed!

Straight from Ken Arthurson's mouth !(Interview on Sterlo:Fox League)

Who f**king cares what that corrupt, power hungry, moron thinks, especially what he thinks 20 years after the fact when he is just playing his audience for popularity!

Your dilution stance reeks of disrespect and a continued theme of whiteanting the most popular rugbyleague competition on Earth.

What "dilution stance", what the f**k does that even mean!

It's amazing we get the constructive proactive discourse happening then someone like yourself comes in with destructive logic. Seeing the code collapse like a deck of cards is not what proactive discourse is about. I suggest you keep playing 'strip poker ' with yourself!

LOL, It's not me or anybody other than yourself that has destroyed the discourse.

Every discourse you touch you destroy, you've basically destroyed the whole expansion subforum and you're trying your darnedest to do the same to the international forum cause nothing can be discussed without you coming in and completely twisting the discussion away from the topic at hand to your same old unsubstantiated bullshit talking points about North Sydney, Super League, Rugby Union, etc, etc, but as if that isn't bad enough once you've destroyed the discussion at hand it's impossible to even engage in you're points because you have the comprehension skills of a two year old so you don't understand any point that is being made and just repeat yourself over, and over, and over ad nauseam without even the most basic ability to support or defend your own arguments let alone comprehend other peoples.

Lol. And the criteria for judging this flawed logic(carving up the existing clubs) was hopeless. Great clubs with magnificent history and 'latent' support (which you obviously don't count) were shafted. It's clear there are people whom want to see the code grow without implosion and there are those that support weakening the code. Genuine growth is positive for the code and it's fans. Dilution is purely destructive.

I see that somebody forgot to change to their alt account again...

 

[Stallion]

Canberra, Cronulla, Newcastle, Canterbury, North Sydney, Auckland, Western Reds, Illawarra, Western Suburbs, Penrith, Balmain, South Queensland, Gold Coast, South Sydney, and North Queensland, that's 15 clubs out of a 20 club competition all of whom were speeding towards bankruptcy or at least extreme financial problems, it's likely that most of them would have gone broke before 2005...

I'm afraid that three quarters of the competition going down the gurgler is as close to a cut and dried example of an unsustainable competition that exists, no mistaken logic, implosion thinking, or whatever other BS you want to crap on about needed!



Who f**king cares what that corrupt, power hungry, moron thinks, especially what he thinks 20 years after the fact when he is just playing his audience for popularity!



What "dilution stance", what the f**k does that even mean!



LOL, It's not me or anybody other than yourself that has destroyed the discourse.

Every discourse you touch you destroy, you've basically destroyed the whole expansion subforum and you're trying your darnedest to do the same to the international forum cause nothing can be discussed without you coming in and completely twisting the discussion away from the topic at hand to your same old unsubstantiated bullshit talking points about North Sydney, Super League, Rugby Union, etc, etc, but as if that isn't bad enough once you've destroyed the discussion at hand it's impossible to even engage in you're points because you have the comprehension skills of a two year old so you don't understand any point that is being made and just repeat yourself over, and over, and over ad nauseam without even the most basic ability to support or defend your own arguments let alone comprehend other peoples.



I see that somebody forgot to change to their alt account again...

Lol. You are clearly advocating the sure demise of the most popular rugby league competition on Earth. I realise it's a hot day but your response was clearly innept as per usual and found wanting for common sense! You must have a real dislike for tradition, history and longevity. Added to that most sports clubs run at a loss!? Your carve up edict is both irresponsible and reckless. DILUTION OF THE CLUBS IN Sydney is what is being referred to with 'dilution'! Already the seeds of weakening the code is happening in northern Sydney and you continue to rant as if you have an authority of supreme ignorance that can't be questioned. You go ask those fans that have lost their clubs identities whether it's a good thing!? My word it is taking an age for you to work out the meaning and advantage of longevity and historical relevance. It counts and it is largely reflected on what us fans call club loyalty!? Something you certainly don't adhere to in anyway shape or form. Except for your obsessive divisive rants aimed at destroying the most popular rugby competition in the world bar none!

 

[The Great Dane]

Lol. You are clearly advocating the sure demise of the most popular rugby league competition on Earth.

You got me, I waste so much time on a RL forum cause I secretly hate RL and want to see the demise of the whole sport...

I realise it's a hot day but your response was clearly innept as per usual and found wanting for common sense! You must have a real dislike for tradition, history and longevity.

Gonna explain why my response was "inept" or just declare it so like always.

Added to that most sports clubs run at a loss!?

Those 15 clubs weren't just running at a loss, they were dying.

Your carve up edict is both irresponsible and reckless. DILUTION OF THE CLUBS IN Sydney is what is being referred to with 'dilution'!

To bad that I don't actually want to "carve up" or "dilute" anything, if I did you might sort of have a point...

Already the seeds of weakening the code is happening in northern Sydney and you continue to rant as if you have an authority of supreme ignorance that can't be questioned. You go ask those fans that have lost their clubs identities whether it's a good thing!?

Give me a second and I'll ask myself whether it's a good thing that the Bears were dropped!

Yeah it sucked, it certainly shouldn't have been them that copped it (at least they weren't the most logical choice to cop it), and the way they went out sucked in particular, but taking my emotions out of the matter for a second it was for the best in the grand scheme of things, they went so all the others had a better chance of making it, and at the end of the day you get over it, especially when considering that they are still around and kicking and that I can still go watch them and follow them if I wanted (unfortunately I rarely get the opportunity to watch them and following them is quite difficult because of the lack of exposure that the NSW cup gets, but those are separate issues).

My word it is taking an age for you to work out the meaning and advantage of longevity and historical relevance. It counts and it is largely reflected on what us fans call club loyalty!? Something you certainly don't adhere to in anyway shape or form. Except for your obsessive divisive rants aimed at destroying the most popular rugby competition in the world bar none!

Historical relevance is definitely a valuable thing, the problem you have is that you haven't realised that it's only valuable to those that share it!

 

[Stallion]

You got me, I waste so much time on a RL forum cause I secretly hate RL and want to see the demise of the whole sport...

Gonna explain why my response was "inept" or just declare it so like always.

Those 15 clubs weren't just running at a loss, they were dying.

To bad that I don't actually want to "carve up" or "dilute" anything, if I did you might sort of have a point...
Give me a second and I'll ask myself whether it's a good thing that the Bears were dropped!

Yeah it sucked, it certainly shouldn't have been them that copped it (at least they weren't the most logical choice to cop it), and the way they went out sucked in particular, but taking my emotions out of the matter for a second it was for the best in the grand scheme of things, they went so all the others had a better chance of making it, and at the end of the day you get over it, especially when considering that they are still around and kicking and that I can still go watch them and follow them if I wanted (unfortunately I rarely get the opportunity to watch them and following them is quite difficult because of the lack of exposure that the NSW cup gets, but those are separate issues).

Historical relevance is definitely a valuable thing, the problem you have is that you haven't realised that it's only valuable to those that share it!

Lol. A share of no relevance is a share of nothing! You don't get it do you!? You show compassion for the Bears yet have a smiling assassin look when referring to their plight!? You also seem to think the dilution (I can use it now:explained I hope )was necessary. Their's a strong belief that this "carve up" of Sydney clubs was not necessary. To be honest when I learnt that the 'agreement' meant the existing 22clubs had to decrease to 14, I knew the bad guys had won! I could not believe that such an agreement was occuring! Nor did the many millions of rugby league fans around the country.It was a total sham and a disastrous result from a divisive and destructive aimed war. We totally disagree as you don't respect the dignity and longevity advantage of those various clubs and others do. This in the long term adds to.market loyalty and consumer confidence. You seem to think losing longstanding clubs and their identity doesn't hurt a marketplace? Well others, including myself, absolutely think so. THE LONGEVITY IS A DISTINCT ADVANTAGE. That includes longheld rivalries, generational support, widespread notoriety and general familiarity/established acceptance within the sports market place.You don't think so!? There are others that do! No smiling assassin here!

 

[tri_colours]

those clubs weren't just running at a loss, they were dying.'

Clubs were struggling so much because of the SL war which saw player payments sky rocket.

With the exception of maybe Canberra who had spent all there money cheating the cap.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

The twenty team comp that was shafted by mistaken logic! Straight from Ken Arthurson's mouth !(Interview on Sterlo:Fox League) Your dilution stance reeks of disrespect and a continued theme of whiteanting the most popular rugbyleague competition on Earth. It's amazing we get the constructive proactive discourse happening then someone like yourself comes in with destructive logic. Seeing the code collapse like a deck of cards is not what proactive discourse is about. I suggest you keep playing 'strip poker ' with yourself!

Buuuuuullshit...

Find a link or it didnt happen

 

[Stallion]

Buuuuuullshit...

Find a link or it didnt happen

It was on Fox NRL : "Sterlo on the couch" on June 24th, 2015 ! Sterlo asked Arko about the decision to cull and merger teams from Sydney. Arko admitted it was a mistake. Arko said " You can't take people's clubs away from them! It just wasn't going to work! It would have destroyed the competition! ......So many fans memories and passions would have been lost!...."Sterlo on the Couch was a "one on one interview" format and went for about 8 or 9 episodes from memory. I watched this interview and I'm amazed a 'Rock solid fan" like yourself hadn't viewed it!? (but then again. ......)

 

[Perth Red]

It was on Fox NRL : "Sterlo on the couch" on June 24th, 2015 ! Sterlo asked Arko about the decision to cull and merger teams from Sydney. Arko admitted it was a mistake. Arko said " You can't take people's clubs away from them! It just wasn't going to work! It would have destroyed the competition! ......So many fans memories and passions would have been lost!...."Sterlo on the Couch was a "one on one interview" format and went for about 8 or 9 episodes from memory. I watched this interview and I'm amazed a 'Rock solid fan" like yourself hadn't viewed it!? (but then again. ......)

So he was basically admitting he was a sht leader of the game, hmmm. He wasn’t the first and won’t be the last to realise that in order to grow the sport with a different footprint you need to reduce the Sydney mouths at the table. Even today the commission have decided that clubs can die if they get into strife rather than the nrl save them, I secretly suspect they are desperately hoping one or two Sydney clubs do. Sydney rationalisation has been happening since the game started down the road of moving from a Sydney Comp to a national comp, it isnt over yet I suspect, wether you like it or not stallion.

 

[The Great Dane]

Clubs were struggling so much because of the SL war which saw player payments sky rocket.

Nope all of them were going broke pre-SL, even the ones that hadn't yet kicked a ball in anger.

In fact SL saved almost all the ones that are still around today...

With the exception of maybe Canberra who had spent all there money cheating the cap.

Actually it's the reverse... They were punished so harshly for 'cheating' the cap that it almost bankrupted them (despite everybody involved agreeing that in fact they weren't actively attempting to cheat they just misunderstood the new rules, and they weren't the only ones, they were just the only ones with enough rep bonuses to pay to send them over the cap).

After that they literally couldn't afford to cheat the cap in any significant way until the mid 2000s...