Peter V'landys - New NRL/ARLC Chairman

[t-ba]

Fun as dick on cheese grater... ouch

Hey don't yuck my yum

 

[Wb1234]

Giants/Seagulls were a NSW club, based in Tweed Heads. That's in NSW. Its inclusion in the metropolitan Gold Coast area is tenuous at best and doesn't reflect the cultural divide between people from Gold Coast and Tweed, hence the reason the Giants were called Gold Coast-Tweed.



They regularly played in the finals and had a very strong roster. South Sydney have only played in one GF since 2015, but they've been heavyweights over the last four years.



Bullshit!

They only beat the Reds, Rams and Crushers when it was evident those teams were going to be culled, so fans gave up. Ignoring this factor would be as disingenuous as claiming North Sydney's poor crowds in 1999 is proof they only had 8,500 fans.



It wasn't in the City of Gold Coast and wasn't even in the state of Queensland. If you think the average Queenslander wants to be associated with a team from New South Wales then you don't have a clue. It was also a poor team that sat at the bottom of the ladder throughout its existence.

The only Queenslanders who bothered to travel over the border were the old buggers who wanted to have a spin on the pokies when gaming machines were prohibited at licenced venues in Queensland. Once they were legalised up here Tweed Heads Leagues went bust because they no longer had Queenslanders willing to travel into their hillbilly town.

The Chargers didn't have much support as they inherited a shit squad from the lowly Seagulls.



Look at the stats. Bears drew 710 extra fans in 1991, no doubt boosted by having fans from 10 other Sydney clubs travelling to NSO to see their teams play North Sydney. The Raiders couldn't rely on travelling fans and were in a small regional city. The other three times Bears best the Raiders was during the Super League years. Fans in Brisbane and Canberra turned away from the game. In the time period we're talking about the Raiders won in 1990 and 1994. In the other years they weren't much better on the field than the Bears.

1990 Raiders 13542 vs 9858
1991 Bears 15297 vs 14587
1992 Raiders 11103 vs 10500
1993 Raiders 14569 vs 12264
1994 Raiders 17392 vs 15116
1995 Raiders 15683 vs 11514
1996 Bears 10963 vs 10440
1997 Bears 11713 vs 11622
1998 Bears 11093 vs 9826
1999 Raiders 12057 vs 8566


I focussed on the 90s as that's when Bears consistently drew their best attendances.


They had no home ground and wanted to relocate to a regional city. The other regional club that was next to Sydney was the Steelers, who drew shit crowds, were destitute and merged with St George.

Of the two Sydney clubs that were north of the harbour, Manly were the most popular, drawing better attendances than the Bears in all years throughout the 90s except 1991, 1994 and 1998.

Lmao

the average person in Brisbane is sure loving their half back is from nsw

heck they have billboards all over for him since they can’t find a local

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Lmao

the average person in Brisbane is sure loving their half back is from nsw

heck they have billboards all over for him since they can’t find a local

How does a New South Welshman playing for a team from Brisbane that's based a couple of kilometres from the Brisbane CBD fit into this discussion?

We're talking about the Giants/Seagulls team that played exclusively in Tweed Heads NSW. One of the other posters claimed its location didn't deter people from the Gold Coast from following them.

If the Broncos played all of their matches in Tweed Heads then you might have a point.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Where did I say GC owned it?

GC are the worst performing team in the NRL across many metrics, So why put another team down there?

There isn't a team between Brisbane and Townsville so it seems like a no brainer really

Titans still draw better crowds than some Sydney teams and don't rely on pokies. When they were winning during their early years they drew great crowds. There is potential on the Gold Coast.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Ah yes, Tweed Heads, a place that definitely is not just a continuation of Cooly.

And the Seagulls club, definitely not built right next to Queensland because of its ease of access to the state without Pokies at the time.

Pull the other one mate it plays jingle bells lol.

You're not making any sense.

2015.

Solid cherry pick.

What happened the year before?

They then went through a lean period after the 2014 GF, culminating in the loss of their GF winning coach. Then they became heavyweights again under Siebold, Bennett and now Demetriou.

Don't let those facts get in the way, hey?

Excuses a million for out of Sydney clubs.

Then explain how they outdrew the Warriors in 1998 mate. They were guaranteed a license by the NRL.

RL is not the main Sport in Auckland and people had a stable alternative in RU to fall back on in NZ while our game was imploding. Stop thinking that the world begins and ends in Sydney and see things from other people's perspective.

So we have to respect the rights of Queenslanders to not cross an imaginary line but the right of Sydneysiders with clubs older than living memories from distinct regions can't have their distinct geographically divided regions respected?

lol.

No one said Queenslanders won't travel into NSW. Nice strawman. I said Queenslanders won't support a NSW club. Especially in rugby league after everything the NSWRL did to the QRL. When it comes to rugby league most Queenslanders absolutely hate NSW.

As for the other crap about Sydney's archaic boundaries. No other sport in Australia has its professional clubs control junior competitions. Shane Richardson pointed out that the catchment system use in Sydney has never worked and needs to be dine away with for the good of the game.

I suppose you know more than him?

People regularly travelled between the two for work and leisure and still do. There are literal suburban streets where one side in NSW and the other one is QLD lol.

First you say there's no border. Now you're saying there's signs stating which side of the border the streets are on. Make up your mind.

I'll state again that no one said Queenslanders never travelled from Queensland to Tweed Heads. The only people who ever did on a regular basis were those who worked there, went on a cheap holiday in a quiet location or wanted to have a spin on the pokies before they were legalised in Queensland.

Fans turned away from the game. Again, a million excuses for Non Sydney clubs.

Yeah, a side that won three premierships could barely beat a side in terms of attendance that couldn't make a grand final lol. This is not the slam dunk you think it is mate.

Canberra was a small regional city. Winning three premierships doesn't change that fact.

Since you're talking about premierships as if they are the answer for Canberra's attendances, let's not forget a very successful rugby union team was set up in the ACT in 1994 and won numerous titles. The Raiders haven't won one since 1994. Plus RL was never the main sport in the ACT. But don't let these facts get in the way of your revisionist history and cherry picking.

You said the Bears drew better crowds than a ton of non-Sydney clubs. This is a falsehood that's been exposed.

They had no homeground because of the NRL criteria dude. A criteria which has been largely abandoned since Saints moved back to Kogarah a couple of years later.

They had no home ground because NSO is a cricket ground unfit for RL. Only a hillbilly would think a professional club from a game that's played on a rectangular field is fit to be played at a cricket oval that has a tree. Kogarah was redeveloped when Howard was Prime Minister. Nice try though.

The other regional club next to Sydney is a destitute basketcase (Newcastle) more often that not but I somehow doubt you'd want them kicked out.

They have a loyal and passionate fanbase that the Bears never had. They're also not competing with 10 other clubs for marketshare in their city. Don't let those facts get in the way.

 

[Captain Apollo]

He does make a tree stump seem intelligent

Oi. That's insulting to tree stumps! I'm reporting you to the RSPCTS

 

[Wb1234]

How does a New South Welshman playing for a team from Brisbane that's based a couple of kilometres from the Brisbane CBD fit into this discussion?

We're talking about the Giants/Seagulls team that played exclusively in Tweed Heads NSW. One of the other posters claimed its location didn't deter people from the Gold Coast from following them.

If the Broncos played all of their matches in Tweed Heads then you might have a point.

Do you read what you write lmao

 

[MugaB]

Do you read what you write lmao

PVL

 

[t-ba]

You're not making any sense.

The basic fact that Tweed Heads and Coolangatta are basically the same place separated by an imaginary line between two states makes perfect sense.

They then went through a lean period after the 2014 GF, culminating in the loss of their GF winning coach. Then they became heavyweights again under Siebold, Bennett and now Demetriou.

Don't let those facts get in the way, hey?

A lean period immediately after winning a premiership.

This seems rather pertinent and deliberately starting anything after that and failing to mention a GF win the year before you start your comparison is tremendously disingenuous mate.

RL is not the main Sport in Auckland and people had a stable alternative in RU to fall back on in NZ while our game was imploding. Stop thinking that the world begins and ends in Sydney and see things from other people's perspective.

Excuses Excuses mate.

No one said Queenslanders won't travel into NSW. Nice strawman. I said Queenslanders won't support a NSW club. Especially in rugby league after everything the NSWRL did to the QRL. When it comes to rugby league most Queenslanders absolutely hate NSW.

You said Queenslanders wouldn't travel less than a km into NSW to watch the only top flight team in their metro area.

I raised the point that Gold Coasters seem perfectly capable of travelling to NSW for a variety of reasons and that an imaginary line is a pissweak excuse for not going to the only top flight side in your city.

As for the other crap about Sydney's archaic boundaries. No other sport in Australia has its professional clubs control junior competitions. Shane Richardson pointed out that the catchment system use in Sydney has never worked and needs to be dine away with for the good of the game.

I suppose you know more than him?

Good for him.

Problem is, the game did have junior boundaries and those have shaped the identity of the city. Whether or not Junior catchments are archaic or not has little do with the impacts of it. Like the imaginary line between QLD and NSW, these archaic boundaries have an impact. I mean, it would make sense for Tweed Heads to be part of QLD but I doubt they'd want that. Because that's how history works.

First you say there's no border. Now you're saying there's signs stating which side of the border the streets are on. Make up your mind.

Where did I now say there are signs?

I said there are suburban roads where one SIDE is QLD and one SIDE is NSW.

There are plenty of signs seperating the two.

Just like how I can walk about two hundred metres from my house and there is a sign delineating Willoughby from North Sydney.

This is a weird claim and tangent you have made.

I'll state again that no one said Queenslanders never travelled from Queensland to Tweed Heads. The only people who ever did on a regular basis were those who worked there, went on a cheap holiday in a quiet location or wanted to have a spin on the pokies before they were legalised in Queensland.

Plenty did it for other reasons dude. People with families have been living on both sides forever, sporting comps have shared teams forever, surfers have been jumping across forever, people have been dating people on boths sides forever.

These places are really integrated and have been forever. It's not the bloody Line of Actual Control lol.

Canberra was a small regional city. Winning three premierships doesn't change that fact.

Since you're talking about premierships as if they are the answer for Canberra's attendances, let's not forget a very successful rugby union team was set up in the ACT in 1994 and won numerous titles. The Raiders haven't won one since 1994. Plus RL was never the main sport in the ACT. But don't let these facts get in the way of your revisionist history and cherry picking.

Brumbies started in 1996.

Didn't win shit until 2000.

Seems like the facts are once again out of reach.

You said the Bears drew better crowds than a ton of non-Sydney clubs. This is a falsehood that's been exposed.

Did I?

Care to quote that mate?

Got a hint for you brother, it'll be a tough one to find.

They had no home ground because NSO is a cricket ground unfit for RL. Only a hillbilly would think a professional club from a game that's played on a rectangular field is fit to be played at a cricket oval that has a tree. Kogarah was redeveloped when Howard was Prime Minister. Nice try though.

They returned to Kogarah in 2003 before redevelopment?

They have a loyal and passionate fanbase that the Bears never had. They're also not competing with 10 other clubs for marketshare in their city. Don't let those facts get in the way.

And yet they are still an utter financial mess that had needed bailing out. From a financial perspective, their market just doesn't compare to those available to Sydney clubs. Which is fine, because the money that a club can generate isn't the be all and end all, just like the imagined potential number of fans isn't.

 

[Reflector]

1990 - 6th out of 11 Sydney Clubs for attendance
1991 - 1st
1992 - 6th
1993 - 4th
1994 - 2nd
1995 - 3rd
1996 - 5th
1997 - 4th
1998 - 3rd

One of the best attended Sydney clubs of the 1990s dude. Certainly had a pretty large fanbase for the time in Sydney.

Historically pure trash in terms of fans but David Hill turned them into a very well supported side compared to other Sydney outfits and no bizarre historically inaccurate reading of the past will change that.

He means they had rubbish attendances compared to the Broncos.

 

[Reflector]

Oh my god... can we please stop talking to this moron... the two headed QLDr will continue to dribble out his alftables stats till the cows come home... all in all we are now stupider for listen to him... let the dribbler dribble and he'll eventually fk off to another thread about hating pvl or wheres my singapore scorpions thread when we don't reply.. otherwise rain man here will just keep on spewing his anti everything nsw at us... its sickening having to look at a new post to find out its grotd, releasing bile on the history of something he never lived in or watched growing up... stats tell all bullshit

I tried for a while over on the expansion thread, then gave up. I began treating it more as arguing for the sake of anybody else who might read my comments and be interested in the subject of expansion/ rationalisation etc.

I also maintain that a Redcliffe NRL bid has been a long time coming and will be a massive success in the years/ decades to come. As will the Bears when they return.

 

[Wb1234]

I tried for a while over on the expansion thread, then gave up. I began treating it more as arguing for the sake of anybody else who might read my comments and be interested in the subject of expansion/ rationalisation etc.

I also maintain that a Redcliffe NRL bid has been a long time coming and will be a massive success in the years/ decades to come. As will the Bears when they return.

Yep

vlandys is laying the platform for the sport ten years from now

plus I really don’t think he’s stopping at 18 either

he will look to south west Brisbane down the track then it will be nz2 for a 20 team comp

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

A lean period immediately after winning a premiership.

This seems rather pertinent and deliberately starting anything after that and failing to mention a GF win the year before you start your comparison is tremendously disingenuous mate.

What's your gripe?

Or your point, for that matter?

You disregard the years Canberra drew better crowds than the Bears throughout the 90s because they won three premierships in 89, 90 and 94, then argue that North Sydney were strongly supported, despite their attendances being similar to the Raiders.

Why does North Sydney's inability to win a premiership in decades mean their support was strong but Raiders wasn't, despite their attendances being very similar and Raiders being ahead of them more often than not?

You're just creating a bullshit metric that makes no sense.

You said Queenslanders wouldn't travel less than a km into NSW to watch the only top flight team in their metro area.

I raised the point that Gold Coasters seem perfectly capable of travelling to NSW for a variety of reasons and that an imaginary line is a pissweak excuse for not going to the only top flight side in your city.

Using your logic, there's nothing stopping people from the North Shore travelling to Brookvale or the SFS to watch the Sea Eagles and Roosters, and the fact they don't means it's not a rugby league area and doesn't deserve a team.

Why do you keep on using Coolangatta's proximity to Tweed Heads as a strawman to argue that people from all over the Gold Coast had a team of their own but didn't support it?

People travelling regularly between Coolongatta and Tweed Heads doesn't mean that it's common for people from other suburbs of the Gold Coast to do it. There are eighty-one suburbs in the Gold Coast. Coolangatta is just one of them. Tweed Heads isn't one of them.

See for yourself.

List of Gold Coast suburbs - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Queensland rugby league fans have bashed and killed New South Wales rugby league fans.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/origin-fans-blamed-for-death/news-story/50a6ff9d90e73dc8fd72ec6dc691d659

To think that Queensland rugby league fans would want to support a team that's based in NSW is insane. The rivalry between the two states is too intense. We all saw how Gold Coasters reacted to the Bears' bid to buy the Titans. The Burleigh Bears threatened legal action.

Good for him.

Problem is, the game did have junior boundaries and those have shaped the identity of the city. Whether or not Junior catchments are archaic or not has little do with the impacts of it. Like the imaginary line between QLD and NSW, these archaic boundaries have an impact. I mean, it would make sense for Tweed Heads to be part of QLD but I doubt they'd want that. Because that's how history works.

These places are really integrated and have been forever. It's not the bloody Line of Actual Control lol.

The BRL used to make players live in the district of the club they played for. Clubs ran their own sub-district clubs. Rugby league survived when the QRL did away with this crap. Rugby league will survive in Sydney without the archaic club boundaries. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just a hillbilly.

Brumbies started in 1996.

Didn't win shit until 2000.

Seems like the facts are once again out of reach.

I got the dates wrong. The point though is they're been the most successful Australian Super Rugby club in a territory that has a long and proud rugby union history. There was never a North Sydney Super Rugby team competing with the Bears.

Did I?

Care to quote that mate?

Got a hint for you brother, it'll be a tough one to find.

Right here.

Several, as you point out later on.

That was your response to me asking you which clubs from out of Sydney drew smaller crowds than the Bears.

And yet they are still an utter financial mess that had needed bailing out. From a financial perspective, their market just doesn't compare to those available to Sydney clubs. Which is fine, because the money that a club can generate isn't the be all and end all, just like the imagined potential number of fans isn't.

Stop speaking shit that is easily disproven. Last year Cronulla collected just $4m in sponsorship. The Cowboys are from a small regional city of 180k people, yet they generated $8.9m in sponsorship. Don't take my word for it buddy, go look at the 2021 annual reports from both clubs. This makes a mockery of your dumb claim that "From a financial perspective, their [Gold Coast] market just doesn't compare to those available to Sydney clubs."

Cronulla is a Sydney club and their market cannot provide half of what Cowboys get from a truly regional market. There's more money on the Gold Coast than in Townsville.

Gold Coast is the holiday capital of Australia and is littered with more theme parks than any other city. Hollywood also produces movies there and Village Roadshow is a sponsor of the Titans.

 

[t-ba]

What's your gripe?

Or your point, for that matter?

You disregard the years Canberra drew better crowds than the Bears throughout the 90s because they won three premierships in 89, 90 and 94, then argue that North Sydney were strongly supported, despite their attendances being similar to the Raiders.

Why does North Sydney's inability to win a premiership in decades mean their support was strong but Raiders wasn't, despite their attendances being very similar and Raiders being ahead of them more often than not?

You're just creating a bullshit metric that makes no sense.

I never said Canberra wasn't well supported in the 1990s.

What I did say was that Canberra not doing a particularly good job of outdrawing Norths in the 1990s is hardly an impressive feat for a side winning so much at that time.

Using your logic, there's nothing stopping people from the North Shore travelling to Brookvale or the SFS to watch the Sea Eagles and Roosters, and the fact they don't means it's not a rugby league area and doesn't deserve a team.

It's actually your logic being applied to the Gold Coast mate.

You get that right?

Why do you keep on using Coolangatta's proximity to Tweed Heads as a strawman to argue that people from all over the Gold Coast had a team of their own but didn't support it?

People travelling regularly between Coolongatta and Tweed Heads doesn't mean that it's common for people from other suburbs of the Gold Coast to do it. There are eighty-one suburbs in the Gold Coast. Coolangatta is just one of them. Tweed Heads isn't one of them.

See for yourself.

List of Gold Coast suburbs - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

No, I said that Coolangatta and Tweed Heads are next to one another. I did not say that Cooly and Tweed Heads are the place that people regularly travel between. Please learn to read and follow arguments. This is a basic ability.

Queensland rugby league fans have bashed and killed New South Wales rugby league fans.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/origin-fans-blamed-for-death/news-story/50a6ff9d90e73dc8fd72ec6dc691d659

To think that Queensland rugby league fans would want to support a team that's based in NSW is insane. The rivalry between the two states is too intense. We all saw how Gold Coasters reacted to the Bears' bid to buy the Titans. The Burleigh Bears threatened legal action.

Well gee whiz I wonder if the rivalries between people in various distinct parts of Sydney have strong rivalries with one another and would have difficulties supporting teams from other parts of the city.

The BRL used to make players live in the district of the club they played for. Clubs ran their own sub-district clubs. Rugby league survived when the QRL did away with this crap. Rugby league will survive in Sydney without the archaic club boundaries. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just a hillbilly.

Club Rugby League in Queensland didn't die because of districting. It died because of the money in New South Wales Rugby league (from pokies). By the time the Broncos came in interest in the BRL had started declining because people could watch the NSWRL on television. People in Brisbane drifted away from the BRL over a few decades in a very organic way to the point that support for the BRL had dropped off.

Sydney, by the way the game developed, turned its suburban comp into the premier competition, Which meant that people followed their old clubs in the main competition, complete with the suburban rivalries associated with it.

These two situations in Sydney and Brisbane are not remotely alike.

I got the dates wrong. The point though is they're been the most successful Australian Super Rugby club in a territory that has a long and proud rugby union history. There was never a North Sydney Super Rugby team competing with the Bears.

You seem to get a lot of dates wrong.

Right here.


That was your response to me asking you which clubs from out of Sydney drew smaller crowds than the Bears.

"Several" does not equal "a ton of" mate.

Those are two very different terms. Trying to pass one off as the other is not exactly a very honest way of doing things matey.

It does you argument a disservice to be so dishonest with language like that.

Stop speaking shit that is easily disproven. Last year Cronulla collected just $4m in sponsorship. The Cowboys are from a small regional city of 180k people, yet they generated $8.9m in sponsorship. Don't take my word for it buddy, go look at the 2021 annual reports from both clubs. This makes a mockery of your dumb claim that "From a financial perspective, their [Gold Coast] market just doesn't compare to those available to Sydney clubs."
Cronulla is a Sydney club and their market cannot provide half of what Cowboys get from a truly regional market. There's more money on the Gold Coast than in Townsville.
Gold Coast is the holiday capital of Australia and is littered with more theme parks than any other city. Hollywood also produces movies there and Village Roadshow is a sponsor of the Titans.

My googling abilities are failing me. I can find a 2020 annual report for the Sharks and annual reports for the Cowboys Leagues Club from 2021.

Perhaps you can post the 2021 annual reports for Cronulla and North Queensland where these totals come from.

Because it's not that I don't believe you, it's just that you and numbers often seem to be off?

 

[t-ba]

He means they had rubbish attendances compared to the Broncos.

Well if that's the metric than those lads can start their own league.

Oh wait, I'm getting some news...

 

[Perth Red]

Wtf has any of this to do with pistol Pete?

 

[Willie Ray]

Ole pissy red's gettin' a bit antsy....
hasn't had a whinge about Slippery Pete since
Wednesday arvo....suffering some serious withdrawal symptoms.

 

[Wb1234]

Well if that's the metric than those lads can start their own league.

Oh wait, I'm getting some news...

I’m loving these responses

enjoying the read

 

[mozza91]

Ole pissy red's gettin' a bit antsy....
hasn't had a whinge about Slippery Pete since
Wednesday arvo....suffering some serious withdrawal symptoms.

I’m not sure if he wants to murder PVL or root him. Either way a restraining order is required.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I never said Canberra wasn't well supported in the 1990s.

What I did say was that Canberra not doing a particularly good job of outdrawing Norths in the 1990s is hardly an impressive feat for a side winning so much at that time.

Canberra wasn't a rugby league city to the same degree as Brisbane and Sydney. Fumbleball and rugby union were strongly supported in the region.

It's actually your logic being applied to the Gold Coast mate.

You get that right?

It's not a like for like comparison. You're comparing a team that played in a small NSW town because Arthurson and Quayle gave the Broncos exclusivity over SEQ. Tweed Heads is on the far outskirts of the Gold Coast metropolitan area.

North Sydney didn't play on the far outskirts of their region. If they played one suburb over in Sea Eagles territory then you might have a valid point.

No, I said that Coolangatta and Tweed Heads are next to one another. I did not say that Cooly and Tweed Heads are the place that people regularly travel between. Please learn to read and follow arguments. This is a basic ability.

You were going on about people from Coolangatta and Tweed Heads travelling across the border every day for work and to a lesser extent for leisure and dating. Reread what you said if you don't believe me.

Travelling every day for work counts as "people regularly travel between".

Well gee whiz I wonder if the rivalries between people in various distinct parts of Sydney have strong rivalries with one another and would have difficulties supporting teams from other parts of the city.

No different to every other city. There were nine BRL clubs and their various fan bases had intense rivalries. Many of those rivalries still exist. Go to Kougari Oval for a Wynnum vs Easts or Wynnum vs Redcliffe game and see the tension between the two groups of supporters.

Club Rugby League in Queensland didn't die because of districting. It died because of the money in New South Wales Rugby league (from pokies). By the time the Broncos came in interest in the BRL had started declining because people could watch the NSWRL on television. People in Brisbane drifted away from the BRL over a few decades in a very organic way to the point that support for the BRL had dropped off.

Sydney, by the way the game developed, turned its suburban comp into the premier competition, Which meant that people followed their old clubs in the main competition, complete with the suburban rivalries associated with it.

These two situations in Sydney and Brisbane are not remotely alike.

I used to go into the Queensland State Library to research the history of the Scorpions. I had a quick look at the TV guide that was in the Courier-Mail pre-1988. Broadcast times for the NSWRL weren't that great. There was more BRL/Statewide League broadcast on TV and at better viewing times.

The BRL grand final was always a sell out. The 6pm news focused on the BRL. There's video clips on YouTube on a channel called bashuppark that confirms this.

"Several" does not equal "a ton of" mate.

Those are two very different terms. Trying to pass one off as the other is not exactly a very honest way of doing things matey.

It does you argument a disservice to be so dishonest with language like that.

It's the same thing. And you couldn't find several out of Sydney clubs to support your argument, could you?

You said Bears beat Warriors in 1998, which means Warriors beat Bears in 95, 96, 97 and 99.

Cowboys always beat the Bears.

Broncos always beat the Bears.

Raiders beat the Bears 6 times out of 10.

Rams beat the Bears in 1997.

Reds beat the Bears in 95.

Fans turned away from Rams and Reds when it was evident they had no future.

Knights always beat the Bears.

Crushers beat the Bears in 95 and 96. Fans turned off in 97 as they knew the club was cooked.

The only clubs Bears regularly beat were the Giants/Seagulls/Chargers and Steelers. That's not several. That's just a couple.

My googling abilities are failing me. I can find a 2020 annual report for the Sharks and annual reports for the Cowboys Leagues Club from 2021.

Perhaps you can post the 2021 annual reports for Cronulla and North Queensland where these totals come from.

Because it's not that I don't believe you, it's just that you and numbers often seem to be off?

Look up the Sharks at Kareela site.

https://sharksatkareela.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/2021-Annual-Report.pdf