Phil Gould

[Old Timer]

Penrith Leagues has always been a profitable, successful club. However, that wasn’t translating to a thriving footy club until Gould came in. Not sure if that’s coincidence, but considering that was one of his targets, it’s hard to believe he didn’t influence it.
As for their roster - not sure what you’re looking at because it’s brilliant. Any of their back 5 walk into our starting line, and 4/5 of them are local juniors. Their halves walk into our team, 1/2 local juniors. Their back row is one of the few in the comp who could compete with ours (and all significantly younger) 3/3 local juniors. The front row is the only place we are superior. But their depth kills ours.

And it’s not that youngsters ‘want to stay an be monitored by Gould, but he has put everything in place to keep them there, develop them and give them a path to first grade. He’s invested heavily in training and developing from junior level. He’s set up the coaching structure in the juniors and planned for development. And he’s provided the succession plan for all those kids to first grade.

From a roster/football management POV, he leaves Millward for dead.

I hear what you are saying and on some points I agree.
Not hard for their players especially backs to walk into our team but how many other teams can they walk into as I certainly don't hold us in higher esteem than them especially in the backs?
Does he leave Millward for dead no doubt about that but again no recommendation for mine but no doubt their facilities are 1st class as will the Cowboys be and that has no Gould involvement albeit he probably did share some intel with them.
Penrith are no closer to a GF than we are so for all his work and considering our issues obviously there is something not quite right and maybe the Penrith management see it and are trying to do something about it and that stance by Penrith is what I see as being proactive and envy them for.
Re the depth of their juniors we can match that but we can't progress them and despite Penrith having so many juniors in their top side (obviously a positive effect re cap) they too struggle to get the marquee players that will make the difference between being good and winning the GF.

 

[True_Believer]

I hear what you are saying and on some points I agree.
Not hard for their players especially backs to walk into our team but how many other teams can they walk into as I certainly don't hold us in higher esteem than them especially in the backs?
Does he leave Millward for dead no doubt about that but again no recommendation for mine but no doubt their facilities are 1st class as will the Cowboys be and that has no Gould involvement albeit he probably did share some intel with them.
Penrith are no closer to a GF than we are so for all his work and considering our issues obviously there is something not quite right and maybe the Penrith management see it and are trying to do something about it and that stance by Penrith is what I see as being proactive and envy them for.
Re the depth of their juniors we can match that but we can't progress them and despite Penrith having so many juniors in their top side (obviously a positive effect re cap) they too struggle to get the marquee players that will make the difference between being good and winning the GF.

You also have to remember that he stepped up in 2011 with a 5 year plan that to date hasn't yielded any results other than one prelim appearance. As far as leaving Millward for dead, he has had a significant head start with Millward taking over our recruitment in 2016. Being financially strong is one thing, but this is a results driven business and the Panthers don't have the runs on the board. Not saying all this won't yield results eventually, however I think the 5 year plan was a little ambitious and it appears it takes quite a bit longer to see the benefits put in 9 years ago.

And you are right OT - you would have to think that if everything was honky dory, they would have been speaking with each other before approaching different coaches. The fact they've gone their own separate ways indicates to me that there may have been some differences of opinion there. The fact the Panthers board told Cleary that Gould wouldn't be interfering says it all really.

 

[Warabrook saint]

Very good article, assuming not too much journalistic licence has been used. Interesting that the ' Bennett Curse' has been officially recognized at The Broncos with Jason Demetriou the latest victim after Ivan Henjac and Super Coach Price. Poor old JD is now in line for another kiss of death at the Rabbitohs.

JD is a different kettle of fish to Henjak and Price

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

• Sacked their coach leading into the finals last year.

For the professional Gould is reported to be the above looks pretty shambolic to me.

Sack McGregor thread...???

if saints sacked McGregor going into last years finals.. I reckon 95% of my saints forum compadres would be doing cartwheels down their street..

But seriously - Gould claims it was a board decision (possibly inclusive of him) and he was the messenger.

I respect the views of others here, including yours.

My view is that the Panthers as a club is far far better for Gould’s involvement. Comparing the Panthers when he arrived to now - light years apart..

He had Wayne Bennett locked an loaded but over-ruled by his seniors.

The recent videos issues are a horrible indictment on the club as a whole but well outside his control.

 

[BennyV]

I hear what you are saying and on some points I agree.
Not hard for their players especially backs to walk into our team but how many other teams can they walk into as I certainly don't hold us in higher esteem than them especially in the backs?
Does he leave Millward for dead no doubt about that but again no recommendation for mine but no doubt their facilities are 1st class as will the Cowboys be and that has no Gould involvement albeit he probably did share some intel with them.
Penrith are no closer to a GF than we are so for all his work and considering our issues obviously there is something not quite right and maybe the Penrith management see it and are trying to do something about it and that stance by Penrith is what I see as being proactive and envy them for.
Re the depth of their juniors we can match that but we can't progress them and despite Penrith having so many juniors in their top side (obviously a positive effect re cap) they too struggle to get the marquee players that will make the difference between being good and winning the GF.

I would say that DWZ plays on the wing for most teams, other than Storm. Waqa Blake takes a centre spot in many sides too. Whare is a NZ international when he can stay on the field. Mansour has dropped a bit due to injuries and lack of footy IQ, but is also a former NSW and Australian winger. And I’m a fan of Edwards (personal choice) but we are currently in a bit of a golden age for young fullbacks.
As for them being closer to a premiership than us - hard to say, but I disagree. I personally think that bringing Cleary back has significantly hampered their chances (as good a coach as he is, its far too de-stabilising) and if they had a McGuire or Bennett come in, they’d be almost a lock for a premiership in the next 3 years. I don’t think they need any marquee players, they’ve got Maloney, Kilauea and Cleary; thats enough star power for a trophy, amongst the remainder of their Top 17. Maybe missing a prop or 2, but from a roster/talent/development POV they are superior to us with more home grown talent.

Overall point is that if you look at where Penrith were in 2011, on and off the field, compared to where they are now, its insanity to say that Gould hasn’t achieved anything.

 

[Warabrook saint]

Sack McGregor thread...???

if saints sacked McGregor going into last years finals.. I reckon 95% of my saints forum compadres would be doing cartwheels down their street..

But seriously - Gould claims it was a board decision (possibly inclusive of him) and he was the messenger.

I respect the views of others here, including yours.

My view is that the Panthers as a club is far far better for Gould’s involvement. Comparing the Panthers when he arrived to now - light years apart..

He had Wayne Bennett locked an loaded but over-ruled by his seniors.

The recent videos issues are a horrible indictment on the club as a whole but well outside his control.

Griffin compared to mcgregor....mcgregor is not fit to shine his shoes

 

[Old Timer]

I would say that DWZ plays on the wing for most teams, other than Storm. Waqa Blake takes a centre spot in many sides too. Whare is a NZ international when he can stay on the field. Mansour has dropped a bit due to injuries and lack of footy IQ, but is also a former NSW and Australian winger. And I’m a fan of Edwards (personal choice) but we are currently in a bit of a golden age for young fullbacks.
As for them being closer to a premiership than us - hard to say, but I disagree. I personally think that bringing Cleary back has significantly hampered their chances (as good a coach as he is, its far too de-stabilising) and if they had a McGuire or Bennett come in, they’d be almost a lock for a premiership in the next 3 years. I don’t think they need any marquee players, they’ve got Maloney, Kilauea and Cleary; thats enough star power for a trophy, amongst the remainder of their Top 17. Maybe missing a prop or 2, but from a roster/talent/development POV they are superior to us with more home grown talent.

Overall point is that if you look at where Penrith were in 2011, on and off the field, compared to where they are now, its insanity to say that Gould hasn’t achieved anything.

Not saying he hasn't achieved anything, I'm just not as euphoric about him as others and am willing to question exactly what it is that his achieved.
He is a larger than life personality and has a lot to say about everything but Im not so sure that everything he says is actually correct whilst others dote on his every word.
Now the Roosters admin and coaching well that is another level altogether and IMO almost make Gould look like an amateur.

 

[possm]

Its interesting you mention Canterbury, as like Penrith, they are also a financial powerhouse mainly due to their Leagues Club. In fact not so long ago, we all used to hold them in the same light as the Roosters and the Storm with an endless supply of TPA's and international quality forward packs trotted out year after year, with Hasler pulling the strings.

It was so ridiculous at one stage, didn't they almost land Andrew Fifita to join the likes of James Graham, David Klemmer, Sam Kasiano, Josh Jackson, Greg Eastwood, Frank Pritchard, Tony Williams et all all on huge contracts??

But despite their financial riches, you ask any Dogs fan they will tell you the period after the 2014 GF is one of the darkest in their history. They are favourites for the spoon this year and the salary cap mess left by Hasler won't be fixed till after 2021, despite losing Josh Reyonolds, James Graham, the Morris boys, Aaron Woods, Moses Mbye etc.

So while we all lament our current situation with Mary, its probably better than being a Dogs fan in recent years.

Greenburg - fox in charge of the hen house

 

[possm]

You also have to remember that he stepped up in 2011 with a 5 year plan that to date hasn't yielded any results other than one prelim appearance. As far as leaving Millward for dead, he has had a significant head start with Millward taking over our recruitment in 2016. Being financially strong is one thing, but this is a results driven business and the Panthers don't have the runs on the board. Not saying all this won't yield results eventually, however I think the 5 year plan was a little ambitious and it appears it takes quite a bit longer to see the benefits put in 9 years ago.

And you are right OT - you would have to think that if everything was honky dory, they would have been speaking with each other before approaching different coaches. The fact they've gone their own separate ways indicates to me that there may have been some differences of opinion there. The fact the Panthers board told Cleary that Gould wouldn't be interfering says it all really.

Just for his knowledge of TPA management and for his broad understanding of football matters at a high management level, Gould would be a vast improvement on what we have now and I'm sure would make a significant and positive difference to the management of things football at SGI.

 

[BLM01]

I hear what you are saying and on some points I agree.
Not hard for their players especially backs to walk into our team but how many other teams can they walk into as I certainly don't hold us in higher esteem than them especially in the backs?
Does he leave Millward for dead no doubt about that but again no recommendation for mine but no doubt their facilities are 1st class as will the Cowboys be and that has no Gould involvement albeit he probably did share some intel with them.
Penrith are no closer to a GF than we are so for all his work and considering our issues obviously there is something not quite right and maybe the Penrith management see it and are trying to do something about it and that stance by Penrith is what I see as being proactive and envy them for.
Re the depth of their juniors we can match that but we can't progress them and despite Penrith having so many juniors in their top side (obviously a positive effect re cap) they too struggle to get the marquee players that will make the difference between being good and winning the GF.

Where Penrith have made mistakes recently some of their marquee imports were not that marquee and paid too much for them (value for money)
They tried for JT and nearly got him and would of been a great scoop
but Tamou & Merrin come to mind at 750K odd a season
Not sure how much they paid for Maloney but has added value as an attacking player but prior to this year always a liability in defense..and he is on his last legs.
Re-signed Mansour who was a beast but has had a horrid run of injuries and has lost his mojo.
Kikau is their big strike weapon.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Griffin compared to mcgregor....mcgregor is not fit to shine his shoes

I disagree. Comparing the two..

Griffin inherited the broncos with all the facilities, structures, roster, and benefits of a well-oiled set up which is arguably the best in the NRL.

Mcgregor was thrust into the job when Price was removed, playing roster was “substandard”, wed been languishing at the bottom of the table.

We could debate what’s happened since they both started in their respective positions but...

For mine, Paul McGregor way ahead of Griffin, now twice sacked from head coaching positions at Brisbane and Penrith (who also now have one of the most elite club setups of all NRL clubs).

 

[denis preston]

Gould has obviously turned the Panthers into a financial powerhouse with great resources and a seemingly endless supply of juniors. On that front, he has done a great job.

But that doesn't necessarily mean success on the field. An underachieving squad, a revolving door of coaches. They have only had a moderately successful time on the field with Gus at the helm, and have never really challenged for a title, despite all their riches.

On the other hand, the Sharks (salary cap cheating aside) managed to win a comp despite all the issues with their management, and their basket case of issues, and no money.

Just goes to show that on and off field success don't necessarily go hand in hand.

This then gives us hope !

 

[Miller was a legend]

I disagree. Comparing the two..

Griffin inherited the broncos with all the facilities, structures, roster, and benefits of a well-oiled set up which is arguably the best in the NRL.

Mcgregor was thrust into the job when Price was removed, playing roster was “substandard”, wed been languishing at the bottom of the table.

We could debate what’s happened since they both started in their respective positions but...

For mine, Paul McGregor way ahead of Griffin, now twice sacked from head coaching positions at Brisbane and Penrith (who also now have one of the most elite club setups of all NRL clubs).

Two clubs willing to bite the Bullet on an under performing coach with suspect capability as opposed to one club willing to continue with coach plod-a-thon!

 

[Dragons 09]

I disagree. Comparing the two..

Griffin inherited the broncos with all the facilities, structures, roster, and benefits of a well-oiled set up which is arguably the best in the NRL.

Mcgregor was thrust into the job when Price was removed, playing roster was “substandard”, wed been languishing at the bottom of the table.

We could debate what’s happened since they both started in their respective positions but...

For mine, Paul McGregor way ahead of Griffin, now twice sacked from head coaching positions at Brisbane and Penrith (who also now have one of the most elite club setups of all NRL clubs).

Griffin 55% win ratio, sacked twice already and now unwanted by anyone.
McGregor 50% win ratio and about to be extended.

It could be argued that some clubs guage success by premierships where as others guage success by being a top bloke and getting a 50% pass mark, just saying!

 

[Warabrook saint]

Griffin 55% win ratio, sacked twice already and now unwanted by anyone.
McGregor 50% win ratio and about to be extended.

It could be argued that some clubs guage success by premierships where as others guage success by being a top bloke and getting a 50% pass mark, just saying!

55 %win ratio should get you in the semis every time.....has to be better than mary

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

55 %win ratio should get you in the semis every time.....has to be better than mary

Griffin 55% win ratio, sacked twice already and now unwanted by anyone.
McGregor 50% win ratio and about to be extended.

It could be argued that some clubs guage success by premierships where as others guage success by being a top bloke and getting a 50% pass mark, just saying!

A few things here, some context with stats. also for @Warabrook saint

Firstly - The Dragons Under Paul McGregor.

• McGregor inherited a shambles. The previous 2 seasons - The Dragons under Price were at a 38% win ratio. We finished 9th and 14th (the lowest in the history of the Club - since JV).
• When he took over Prices' team in May 2014- Dragons were 13th, finished 11th in 2014.
• Since then we've finished 8th, 11th, 9th, and 7th (final 6 teams in semis).
• So - Twice making finals & missing out in 2016 in the final season game. in 2018 - we were 2 points off the minor premiers.
• McGregor's win 50% overall.
• In the last 2 seasons its 58%. That's in the top 5 of NRL coaches over the same period.

In my mind - the Club has vastly improved under Paul McGregor - after we (for whatever reason) were in the worst position the club has been in in my lifetime.

Secondly - Anthony Griffin.

Brisbane Broncos.

• What did Griffin inherit. 2009-2010 (under Henjak), finished 6th & 10th - Henjak with 52% win record. 2010 was the first time the broncos missed the finals since 1991, and the 3rd in history.
• 2011-2014 (under Griffin). Finished 3rd, 8th, 12th, 8th. 3 times making finals. 2012 & 2014 - out first week finals. 2013 was lowest finish in club history.
• Griffins win % - 54%.
• Only 2% better than Henjak.
• Either side of this - Bennett's record laps them both, with interest.

@ Penrith,

• What did he inherit. Ivan Cleary was 44% before him.2012-2015. 1 x finals series appearance.
• 58% win record. 2016-2018. 3 seasons - 3 x finals series. So a marked improvement on Cleary.
• Griffins last 2 seasons - 53% win.

So what does all that % stuff mean really?? Up to your own judgement. But for mine.

• McGregor has a better win % over the last 2 years vs Griffin at BOTH Panthers, Broncos
• McGregor inherited a worse team at the Dragons than Griffin did at Broncos, and arguably Penrith.
• Dragons 38% pre McGregor > 50% with McGregor. 2017-18 @ 58%
• Broncos 52% pre Griffin > 54% with Griffin.
• Panthers 44% pre Griffin > 58% with Griffin. 2017-2018 @ 53%.
• Neither has won a premiership - but they arent alone in that regard.

McGregor is the far better coach of the two. In my opinion.

And finally..

 

[Warabrook saint]

A few things here, some context with stats. also for @Warabrook saint

Firstly - The Dragons Under Paul McGregor.

• McGregor inherited a shambles. The previous 2 seasons - The Dragons under Price were at a 38% win ratio. We finished 9th and 14th (the lowest in the history of the Club - since JV).
• When he took over Prices' team in May 2014- Dragons were 13th, finished 11th in 2014.
• Since then we've finished 8th, 11th, 9th, and 7th (final 6 teams in semis).
• So - Twice making finals & missing out in 2016 in the final season game. in 2018 - we were 2 points off the minor premiers.
• McGregor's win 50% overall.
• In the last 2 seasons its 58%. That's in the top 5 of NRL coaches over the same period.

In my mind - the Club has vastly improved under Paul McGregor - after we (for whatever reason) were in the worst position the club has been in in my lifetime.

Secondly - Anthony Griffin.

Brisbane Broncos.

• What did Griffin inherit. 2009-2010 (under Henjak), finished 6th & 10th - Henjak with 52% win record. 2010 was the first time the broncos missed the finals since 1991, and the 3rd in history.
• 2011-2014 (under Griffin). Finished 3rd, 8th, 12th, 8th. 3 times making finals. 2012 & 2014 - out first week finals. 2013 was lowest finish in club history.
• Griffins win % - 54%.
• Only 2% better than Henjak.
• Either side of this - Bennett's record laps them both, with interest.

@ Penrith,

• What did he inherit. Ivan Cleary was 44% before him.2012-2015. 1 x finals series appearance.
• 58% win record. 2016-2018. 3 seasons - 3 x finals series. So a marked improvement on Cleary.
• Griffins last 2 seasons - 53% win.

So what does all that % stuff mean really?? Up to your own judgement. But for mine.

• McGregor has a better win % over the last 2 years vs Griffin at BOTH Panthers, Broncos
• McGregor inherited a worse team at the Dragons than Griffin did at Broncos, and arguably Penrith.
• Dragons 38% pre McGregor > 50% with McGregor. 2017-18 @ 58%
• Broncos 52% pre Griffin > 54% with Griffin.
• Panthers 44% pre Griffin > 58% with Griffin. 2017-2018 @ 53%.
• Neither has won a premiership - but they arent alone in that regard.

McGregor is the far better coach of the two. In my opinion.

And finally..

mary has had a far better roster than Price......and by the look of bewilderment on his face at Suncorp stadium last September not much input in the skill imparting of the players

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

mary has had a far better roster than Price......and by the look of bewilderment on his face at Suncorp stadium last September not much input in the skill imparting of the players

Agreed re Roster.

but he started as a debut nrl first grade coach with Prices squad. McGregors team has evolved since then, primarily over the last 2 seasons. He couldn’t just create his own team as soon as he took over.. nor in the first 1-2 seasons

Re Suncorp semi final... that’s a bloody long bow there...

 

[to_ddeath]

You only have to look at what the defending premiers have done to Brisbane tonight to see exactly how poorly coached we are.

 

[getsmarty]

Agreed re Roster.

but he started as a debut nrl first grade coach with Prices squad. McGregors team has evolved since then, primarily over the last 2 seasons. He couldn’t just create his own team as soon as he took over.. nor in the first 1-2 seasons

Re Suncorp semi final... that’s a bloody long bow there...

McGregors Roster is far superior to what Price had. imagine what a decent coach could do with our Roster...

Here's a few stats you omitted...........

We only made the semis in 2016 due to a number of Manly players betting against themselves...

In 5 Years McGregor has won 1 finals game

At the same time McGregor is the 1st Dragons coach in our Club's History to have his side held to Zero at Kogarah Twice...Price achieved this once so using your logic Price having a weaker roster is a better coach than McGregor......

McGregor is not the worst coach in the NRL but we as a team deserve a Great Coach....

The only time we achieved anything in the last 40 years was with an outside coach..Bennett ...

That is the calibre of coach we should be chasing. McGregor has had more than enough time to produce results...forget your 50% ratios...He has won 1 finals game since being here since 2014...and in fact the first thing Bennett did was cut him loose....so maybe have a think about those STATS....