Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

[CanadianSteve]

Sorry to prolong this thread when it seems to have slowed down (though I'm sure it will pick up again when the shooting starts). Or maybe it's slowed down because you're all watching RL, while I have no sports to watch here in NA. But I wanted to respond to the following post by GavBT:
"They (US) only gave you a hand in the Pacific once it became obvious to them that it was in their best interests. If the Japs had left Pearl Harbour alone, it is almost certain Australia would have fallen to the Japanese. "(#265)
Gav I disagree. Pearl Harbour brought the Yanks into the war sooner, but conflict with Japan was inevitable, which is why Japan wanted to strike first. But the US would not have let Britain lose, and they would not have let Aus and NZ be taken over by Japan. If they'd entered the war later, it would have been harder, but I believe they would not have let English speaking democracies be taken over by fascist dictatorships.
So I think it IS valid for the Aussies on here who thank the US for their way of life. Also, the reason the US can call on their NATO allies for support now is because of all they have done for Europe in WW2 and in the cold war since then

 

[Willow]

Canadian Steve:
I repect your view about the USA and I find your loyalty to the Americans to be refreshing.
However, not all will agree that we have to thankfull to the United States for our Australian way of life.
Also, I can't agree that all Britons feel that the same in regards to the USA and WWII. Many people who lived through the blitz will tell you that they hold resentment towards the Americans for letting the Germans bomb the crap out of England while listening to it on their radios.

I actually hold a fair deal of gratitude to the Brits who absorbed so much punishment and for a time, were the only thing that stood between facism and my current way of life.

After the war, the US put the Marshall Plan into place and set about rebuilding Europe. But make no mistake about it, this Plan (which created the Lend Lease Corporation) was set up to make the US stronger economically.
For the next 30 years the western world went into a period of unprecented growth and the USA became the miltary power it is today because of this post war growth.For most western countries this growth was only curtailed finally by the Oil Crisis of the mid 70s. However America has still gone from strength to strength.

There is similar view (albeit on a smaller scale) amongst some Australians that the East Timorese should be grateful to Australia for 'liberating them' when in reality, successive Aust gov'ts sat back and watched the oppresion for over 25 years.

Personally, I see Americans as being incredibly generous to visitors. I found that to be case when I've been there. BTW, the same goes for most countries but the yanks as a people are pretty friendly. However, I've never been a fan of their government's foreign policy. It's a view based as much on first hand experience from my travels as it is from what I have read.
I can't see these recent terrorsist attacks and America's seemingly inevitable response (the bombing of Aghanistan) leading to the world being any better off in the long term.

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

Willow.....In regards to one of your earlier posts saying that the Government should take the lead and show some leadership in this time of crisis. I may have been a little naive in my reply to that comment. It seems you were 100% correct. This is what the lack of leadership and ignorance has led to. A church near my house (yes a church, not a mosque) had nazi signs spray all over it. Not that I am saying that this should all be directed at mosques but the fact that it happened to a church, just because it is a Lebanese catholic church gives me a nasty taste in my mouth. This is what ignorance has achieved. The article below makes me wonder how tolerant and educated the Australian population has become. We need leadership right now in Australia. Below is Australia's ugly side. A side which I wish never existed. Come on Howard! Where are you? Where are our leaders? Why does the media create this hatred?

*****************************************************************************************

Bombs hurled at mosques in Australia
<center>By Ashraf Shad </center>
SYDNEY, Sept 14: Petrol bombs were used in attacks on mosques and Islamic centres in Australia in a backlash to the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.
Muslim girls wearing veils were harassed in public schools and streets across Australia, sources said.
Some mosques were closed after receiving threats. Christian and Muslim leaders pleaded to the public not to blame Muslims or Islam for the attack on the US buildings. Meanwhile, police has stepped up its vigil on the Islamic institutions to protect them.
According to a report, a mosque was attacked with two petrol bombs late on Thursday night in Brisbane, the capital of the sunshine Australian state of Queensland. One of the bombs hit the wall of the mosque while second landed in the lawn. No one was injured and damage was minor.
Police is also investigating an attempted bomb attack on an Islamic centre and mosque on the Gold Coast, a popular spot for tourists. The attackers, however, sprayed paint on the fence of the property and a graffiti that read: "Blood will be shed. We will kill all Arabs..."
In Sydney the Shah Fahad Islamic School in the western suburb of Greenacre was stoned and glass windows were smashed. In Adelaide, the capital of South Australia, the management of the Islamic college in the suburb of Croydon decided to close it until Monday because of threats which they received.
A spokesperson from the Islamic Foundation of Australia, Yasmin Ahmed said some South Australian mosques have closed down due to threats against them.
In Melbourne students of King Khalid College were harassed by tram drivers. School director Mr Salman told of other cases where girls wearing head scarves were harassed and teased. "They were called terrorists and that they should go back to their country which scared the girls, annoyed them and some of them were in tears," Mr Salman told reporters.
On Thursday a mosque in Mirrabooka, a suburb of Perth, was defaced and protesters gathered outside shouting abuses at Muslims.
The Australian Arab Council said they have also received reports that women wearing veils have been abused and spat on.
Council's spokesman, Mr Taimooor said nothing like this happened before and its quite horrifying and also worrying. "A young woman in the street has been abused, we have reports of kids being abused .... in schools ... and being attacked and physically abused," said Council's spokesman.
Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, AFIC, said Australian Muslims do not support or condone terrorism and should not become the victims of recrimination. The President of AFIC, Abbas Ahmed, said they had to arrange 24-hour security for some mosques and Islamic schools.
A church of Lebanese Arabs in Sydney where a wedding was planned was also stoned resulting in the postponement of the marriage.

 

[Willow]

Bebeto.
There's also been 2 more attacks on Mosques in Brisbane over the last day or two.

Yes, I heard about the attack you refer to, that is on a Christian church. Itexposes thelevel of ignorance. This was a place which is mainly visited by Australians of European background but has a few Arab christians in it's congregation. It just happens to look a little different from your average church.
These attackers are vandals mainly but they are just as likely to attack someone for the colour of their skin or the way they wear a moustache.
They are usually young blokes who also seem to have no hesitation in attacking women and school children.

In regards to leadership, I have actually seen Howard on TV asking for calm and thats a good thing but these reportsare soon followed byother reports which focus on the horror of terrorism and will show pictures of Arabic faces. The media is not being balanced in this.

There is a number you can ring if you witness any acts of racial vilification. It is not a government organisation but I hear they are well organised and know the law. They can record your report and will look into it. I'm sorry but I don't much else about them beyond that.
It's a Melbourne phone number: 03- 8300 7556

 

[imported_The Albatross]

Willow,
this is Australia mate. What sort of 'balance' do you expect fromour media at a time like this. The free world is under attack big time!! It won't go away if nothing is done.

I've read a lot of your posts and I have no idea where you stand. Maybe you're a fence sitter? I don't know. You expect Howard to be decisive in his leadership, but I wonder what action you actually advocate in this crises. What do you think America should do?

I try to think about what would be the best way out of this with the least bloodshed. But without being extremely idealistic, I see no way out without a lot of bloodshed. What I do see when I turn on the TV is Arabic people living in Australia celebrating the attack on America. Why are they here? Do they want the best of both worlds i.e. live in a free country and enjoy all the benifits of that, but continue to support what their former countries are doing? Surely you can understand the anger that many Aussies have right now.

It's hard to remain level headed and I feel slightly ashamed that I can feel so much anger, but I don't see any real solutions andI don't see you putting forward any.

 

[Willow]

Albatross:
What do you want from me? Answers? Sorry mate, forget it. I don't have any.
Don't put that on me. As far I'm concerned the whole matter is out of our hands and all we can do now is to try and keep our heads.
You don't know where I stand? I thought it was obvious to eveyone now that I'm one of those 'bleeding hearts' who advocate that we act a decent manner towards each other regardless of our background. Sorry if that disturbs you.

I have asked a number of times for people to keep things in perspective. Read Bebeto's post a few doors up. While the 'free world might be under attack' as you put it, the people living in this 'free country' are also being subjected to attack through no fault of their own.

"What I do see when I turn on the TV is Arabic people living in Australia celebrating the attack on America..."
This is an example of the lack of balance in the media which Ihave referred to.

As always, Ivalue your opinion and I fully understand how this whole thing can bring out debates on many levels.

 

[imported_The Albatross]

I also advocate that we treat each other as fellow humans and live and let live in this country. I suppose it's of no consequence but I had an accident earlier in life and had to come down from the countryand spend about 6 months in Belmore with my nana. The local arab guys took me in and treated my great. I have no prejudice.

But mate,I don't think there is any middle ground here. We can't just stand by and take this shit from fanatics.

It's not the fault of arabic people living in Australia, but some of people support this terrorist shit and it's very hard to know who's who in that environment. Self preservation sets in and the obvious consequences follow. Those so called 'Australians' who suppport this shit are to blame in my view. Tell them to show restraint and see how successful you are.

What is your meaning for putting my comments about the free world being under attack in commas. Don't you agree? Do you think there is a free-er part ofthe world somewhere else i.e apart from the western world. I don't see too many Australian boat people turning up in Afghanistan looking for a better life.

BTW, I appreciate your measured response to my last post, and I appreciate the opportunity to post on a forum such as this about this topic.

 

[Willow]

Albatross: I don't really want to offend anyone here and I also appreciate the opportunity to post my thoughts on this forum.
I only put things in quotations to express the point. 'Freedom' has strings attached as well. Nothing in it really.
I find it weird that I have to explain my method of letter writing but I guess things get like that in this sort of debate.

Anyway mate, I know I might sound like a fence sitter to some but I simply refuse to take sides. I don't want to get into a situation wherepeople are asking the question 'are you with us or against us?'
There are volumes written about the evils of Expansionismvs Terrorism. You know, the sort of well meaning words about, 'fighting for freedom' and 'one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.' IMO, they're all talking the same crap.

While we keep having these mind provoking debates, I can't help but hark back to El Duque's straight forward comment near the top of this thread:
'The World is a f**ked up place my friends.
This is a sad day.'

 

[imported____]

Boat people in Afghanistan, kinda hard considering it's a landlocked country!!! I do get your point though. I was just wondering what method are you advocating to seperate the good from the bad? You bring up the initial reaction of some Palestinians to news of the terrorism on America but you fail to recognise the images of those afterwards lighting candles and carrying flowers in a much more sombre mood. I personally know people that are saying good on them. I personally have not taken that same train of thought but I can see why some have. There is a lot of hurt and a lot of anger in the world on both sides of the equation. I fail to see how hurting more innocent civilians will help anything, enlighten me as to how this can be done.

Ironically it is that person that I know that supported what the terrosists did told me to restrain my joy, to not show others how happy I am because some people may no doubt feel sensitive to it. I simply nodded along too dumb-founded to be able to convert my thoughts to words. In spite of everything that has happened, in spite of everything that can happen from now on, I will never ever support the senseless destruction of innocent life whether it be an Arab life, an Australian life or a French-Mexican life. It is difficult, if not impossible to reach people in some of these poverty-stricken countries, and why would a person in dire circumstances listen to someone preach to them about how they should act when it is these same people that have imposed sanctions on their country and have slaughtered thousands of their fellow countrymen. In Australia, however, we can teach children not to hate not to persecute someone for their beliefs, not to lash out in vengeance and not to resort to violence.

 

[G@v]

CSteve, my point was the US came into the war not because it cared for what happened to Australia, but simply because they had no other option. If they could, they would have sat by while the world was overrun by Nazi's and Imperialist Jap's.

 

[imported_The Albatross]

A big part of what I'm saying is that you can't separate the good from the bad. Like I said, there is no middle ground. When it comes to terrorism there is no room for diplomacy, there is no room for negotiation and terrorism will not go away because we choose to turn the other cheek, either in good faith or blind faith.

It's nice and idealistic to think this can be solved by removing emotion and thinking with clear heads. But that is fantasy. There is only 2 choices (1) do nothing and wait till it happens again (and again and again etc) or (2) fight back. Both of those choices involves innocent people dying. It's unfortunate but it's a fact.

If you think there are any alternatives, please tell me what they are.

Yes we can teach our children to build values around love and acceptance rather than hate, but I'll be f**ked if I'm gonna advocate a system which sets them up as sitting ducks. Let the goodwill be shown by the terrorists, then we might have a chance of solving this problem. But if the terrorists don't come to their senses, any blood spilt is on their heads. I don't like it at all, but as I said on an earlier post, better the blood of their innocent people than my inncocent children.

 

[CanadianSteve]

GavBT: I don't agree. They would not have let Britain lose to the fascists. Even before Pearl Harbor, when the US was officially neutral, they were "lending" arms and planes across the border to Canada to help Britain. Yes their self-interest was involved, and maybe they should have entered the war sooner, but inevitably they were going to come in on Britain's side.
In the 1800's Bismarck said something to the effect that a very important fact in the future was that the US and England shared the same language. Sorry I don't have the exact quote. He has been proven correct in the 20th Century.
As Willow pointed out we owe a huge debt to Britain for standing alone against the Nazis. But I'm sure Churchill was also glad the Americans came in when they did.

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

I have a friend who was raised in Russia.
The history of the second world war is looked at very differently in Russia. They believe that it was a war between Germany and Russia, and the English and Americans sat on the fence till it was obvious that Russia would win, then jumped in and claimed some of the spoils of Russia's victory.
If you look at the order of events and the number of Russian casualties (40 million), they have a point.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Roopy: That just shows how a person's view of history is coloured by what country they live in. I know I have a Canadian viewpoint, influenced by a lot of British history in school as well as the large influence of living next door to the US. During this current crisis I'm glad I can watch the coverage by our own CBC, as well as the BBC sometimes, and not just the American networks.
The Russians do have a point, especially about the tremendous casualties they suffered. But they also started out the war on the same side as Hitler. They used the start of the war to take over part of Poland, and they used the end of the war to take over several E. European countries, though they argued that was for defensive purposes

 

[G@v]

Roopy, your Russian friend was ignorant, unless of course he believes that the Battle of Britain and the Blitz on London and various other British cities and the North Africa campaign were sitting on the fence.

We all know of Stalingrad, the seige of Leningrad and the terrible war that existed in the east, but to play down Britain's role in that manner shows a massive ignorance.

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

Gav,
The russian version plays down the part played by Britian and America, but doesn't our version play down the part played by Russia.

 

[Willow]

Does anyone here think that the war against terrorism will be the war to end all wars?

I recall being asked by a history teacher in high to write an essay on any historical subject that took my fancy.

Like a smart arse, I said I'd write about How the Napoleonic Wars caused the outbreak of World War II. Far from stirring my teacher up, she told me to go for it and that she looked forward to reading it.
You see, I honestly thought there was no connection and I would be told to write something far simpler.

I went to the library and got a bit of a shock when I found out that history in war was repeating itself time and time again.
War is old... older than prostitution.
And the constants of war are all there...
fighting for religious beliefs,
fighting for land and/or economical advantage,
fighting out of ignorance of other peoples.
The other common factor is that it is the innocentswho almost always die first and then continue to be killed as war escalates. This is while the perpetrators of war stay safe in their bunkers and board rooms.

The concept that warsare largely fought on battle fields is a myth.

 

[pepe]

i've always been of the opinion that australia won the war with a little help from our kiwi friends,in papua new guinea we had a much greater force than the nazis to confront,those mosquitos up north can pretty much kill you by just looking at you.

 

[G@v]

Roopy, I would rather view my own version garnered over the years, rather thanthe pitifull amountI was taught in school. That version is that we in the west should be grateful for the part that most Russians played in the war, never to play down or ignore the suffering that occured in Belarus, Ukraine, the Baltic states and western parts of Russia. If we all followed the history taught in school this world would be in an even more parlous state, with even more ignorance being the order of the day.

I have a good idea of the atrocities of the war (By both sides) On the eastern front, and can only feel thankfull that I never had to live through that terrible episode in human history.

 

[imported_kier]

I'm still thinking through many of the events in the recent week........

Since Tuesday I have been increasingly worried about the stance of the US government......especially in its' official statements.

The entire USA seems (perhaps understandably) fixated on who is responsible, and to a lesser extent how it was possible.....

Unfortunatly I have not heard a single mention of WHY the terrible events occured.

I'm also afraid Bush's recent statement of "This is the first war of the 21st century" also filled me with apprehension. It displays an almost insulting lack of understanding of events in the rest of the world.