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Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

Bebeto in Japan

Juniors
Messages
110
Kier.... you said, The entire USA seems (perhaps understandably) fixated on who is responsible, and to a lesser extent how it was possible.....

Unfortunatly I have not heard a single mention of WHY the terrible events occured.

I don't want to be a smart arse and I hope you don't take whatI say personally but how on earth can you explain why the events happened when you don't know who is responsible? The USA has many enemies for many different reasons, so one thing which is obvious is that it was done by one of USA's many enemies. Until we know which particular enemy it is, we will not know which particular reason it occured. One thing which is for sure is that the terrorists involved are mentally sick MFs (and I am not talking about Moffet Fans either) and that is the only thing we know. I am sure they will find who did it but their course of action is the thing which concerns me.


 
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legend

Guest
fetch.dll


 

imported_kier

Juniors
Messages
325
Point taken bebeto.......but by exactly the same token doesn't it then seem odd that the reprisals and (military?) action are being planned when it it not known who is responsible?

Maybe the mood here is different.......already many relatives of UK nationals killed have gone to press saying "Bush should be caged" and hoping that military reprisals are not going to happen.

I for one entirely agree with them.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,635
There certainly is some evidence emerging that the FBI had some knowledge that this might happen a number of weeks ago but chose to do nothing.
One bloke apparently had applied to a flight training similator course but only wanted to learn how to fly in a straight line. He wasn't interested in take off or landing procedures.
The course adminstrators were alarmed by this and called the FBI who arrested the guy because his Visa had expired. It never occurred to them that there might be others and no further investigation was carried out.

 

Topaz

Juniors
Messages
74
I would just like to say God Bless to all, I'm not a person of great religious beliefs, but I have prayed for all those whom have perished, their loved ones and those whom will be effected through further actions.

Did you all hear of Nostradamus's predictions, (hope I dont upset anyone). Apparrently he predicted NY would be struck by devastation in the month of September, he actually gave like co-ordinations, which pointed straight to NY, he also said there will be war in which Russia will be USAs allies, and it would last 7 - 10 years, and someone in a blue turban will rule all, not to sure if that meant the world.
Next thing you know will have all these nutters running around with blue turbans on thier heads.

And did we hear about the number 11, everything seems to be having something to do with the number 11, flight 11, Afganastan has 11 letters,obviously Ive spell it wrong, they didnt actually mention this, but I noticed that the twin towers from certain views looked like the number 11, and many other things just kept adding up to 11.

Will life goes on no matter what, Amen
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Well sports have gone back to business here in NA. Baseball resumed tonight and the NFL will play next weekend. But the Ryder Cup has been postponed for a year.
Still no word on exactly what the US will do.
I just watched a documentary on CBC Newsworld about Bin Laden, his involvement in the earlier bombing of the WTC, and the failed attempt to bomb los Angeles during the Millenium celebrations. It sure sounds like he's guilty of last week's attacks, and as Willow said he's done enough other crimes that it doesn't matter what his involvement was this time
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,635
Well Canadian Steve I did say that and I firmly believe that bin Laden should handed over. But I want to make it clear that I'm againstany bombing of Afghanistan. Despite the pilot's best intentions, bombs don't discriminate between good guys and bad guys.

Also, the idea that we just go to war is a cop out. It allows nothing for finding out why this has happened and more importantly, how we make sure this never happens again. Getting to the core of the problem is harder than dropping bombs so that why I think the war option is a cop out.

I think bin Laden should face trial, like any war criminal would. There are a number of ways to capture him. I don't belive that bombs will flush him out. That will only serve to escalate tensions in the region.
As we speak, troops are mobilising on both sides of the Afghan-Pakistan border.

The great strength of the Nuremberg trials was that they were conducted with evidence being heard from both sides. Sure, the Nazis were all convicted and most were executed but at least the Allies didn't diminish themselves by seeking revenge against the people who lived under the Axis powers.

More recently, the UN has been at work again seeking out war criminals. It wasn't easy, but the UN eventually managed to arrest Slobodan Milosevic in Belgrade.
IMO, Osama bin Laden should be facing the same international court in The Hague.

Furthermore, I don't believe the USA has a legal right to invade Afghanistan without first seeking approval from the UN Security Council. This seems to have been lost amongst a torrent of fury.

If we really want to bring these terrorists to justice, then IMO, there are better ways than just going to war.

 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,635
The Taliban have announced that are ready to hand over bin Laden.
There are 3 conditions:
1.) That bin Laden receives a fair trial in a neutral country.
2.) That international economic sanctions against Afghanistan are lifted.
3.) That foreign military aid to a northern Afghanistan faction ceases.

Now I don't know about # 3. It sounds like more information is needed there.
Can't see anything wrong with # 2 however, I have no idea of the detail of these 'economic' sanctions.
#1 shouldn't be a problem at all and IMO, this should be agreed to right away. The international court in The Hague was fully endorsed by the Clinton administration and seems like the right place to hold such a trial.

 

Bebeto in Japan

Juniors
Messages
110
Willow....below is an email I have received today. One of many regarding this subject. It might help explain condition number 3. It also demonstrates the ignorance of those who think bombing Afganistan will form a solution. I still can't get over the pathetic media coverage on this subject. All they are doing is putting fear and hatred into people when it is so unecessary.
<hr>
This is from Tamim Ansary, a writer and columnist in San Francisco who is a native of Afghanistan.

__________________________________________________________

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?"



Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because
I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rat's nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan
people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban -- by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us?

Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?

Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary
 

El Duque

Bench
Messages
3,845
If this kinda story doesn't give you the creeps then I don't know what does.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/17/gen.attack.biological/

Bebeto,I'm not really religous or nothing but reading that guys email and him saying

"You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers"

It kinda sounds like the job of the false prophet or maybe the antichrist himself?

If for arguments sake the Bible is true,is Bin Laden the antichrist and if so who's the false prophet or vice versa?
 
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Johnsy

Guest
I heard last night on cnn that america is considering bombing Iraq because they have not openly condemned the attack on NY. How F&amp;*%ING ridiculous is this, if this is the mindset of americans I shudder to think what the world is in store for the world over the next months/years.

Johnsy
 
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legend

Guest
That story from the columnist made me stop and think and it truly pricked my conscience. I think the only way to overthrow the Taliban and capture Bin Laden is by way of a ground assault which would be messy and protracted and lot more dead Americans. There will still be the inevitable civilian casualties but at least with a ground assault you can be a bit more discriminatory with your targets. A pilot flying at 35000 feet has no judgement of his target and this makes the issue a much more complex once your emotions settle down and you start to think rationally.
 
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legend

Guest
I just bought the afternoon edition of the Telegraph and it states that up to nine civilian planes were to be used in last weeks attacks. One was due to leave Washington at 9 am and the pilot only grounded the flight once he heard of the terrorist attacks. I'll see if I can track down the story but it seems the attacks may be far from over with the FBI also reporting more attacks were planned for Sept 22. How do we know they have got all the info and some has not slipped through the net?
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
The column from the Afghan-American columnist does make you think. Indiscriminate bombing is not the answer. The columnist talked about sending in large ground forces. An American tv program I saw last night talked of another option, sending in a smaller special operations unit. A commando type unit who might go into Afghanistan covertly and bring Bin Laden out. That would be great but who knows how realistic it is.
On NBC tonight Bill Clinton said in an interview that when his gov't sent missiles at Bin Laden in the 90's, they had good intelligence on where he was, but missed him. If they had hit him, great, though other terrorists would likely have carried on. It would be nice to have him handed over and tried in a neutral country, but if not I think the US would be justified in killing him. I also heard on tv that his bodyguards have orders to shoot him if he is about to be captured.
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
El Duque: The scenario painted by the columnist of a war between the west and Islam does sound like the Biblical scenario of the Battle of Armaggedon. You can picture an invasion of Afghanistan soon leading to a larger war centered around Israel, with European, Russian and Asian armies coming from the west, north and south.
I know some people will think this is a crock, but if you read the Book of Revelation and some of the books written about it you can see the similarities. Commentaries I've read seem to place the antichrist as a European, so I'm not sure how Bin Laden fits into that part, El Duque.
I made reference to Armageddon a few nights ago and someone called me a hypocrite. I wasn't sure what he meant. As a North American I am angry at the attack and feel the US must respond in some way. I hope it doesn't lead to a bigger war now, but as a Christian I believe a war in Israel is coming sometime, inevitably. Only God knows the timing of that
 
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meltiger

Guest
"If they had hit him, great, though other terrorists would likely have carried on. "

Most certainly. Of course there will always be these idiots...

However,

How many of them have Bin Laden's hundreds of millions of dollars to finance these sorts of things ?
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Good point, Meltiger. I hope the US and their allies can somehow cut off the source of his financing. That would be a good peaceful way of hindering terrorists.
 
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