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Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

imported____

Juniors
Messages
58
The US, if they decide to attack, have a reason and purpose to carry out their actions. The terrorists had none whatsoever

I cannot even begin to fathom the mindset behind such a comment. Am I to assume were you to come home one day to see your wife and children slaughtered you wouldn't mind as long as it was done by the US, after all they had reason and purpose. I ask you what is the reason or purpose for murdering an innocent person? Why is it the price of an American life seems to be a lot more than the price of another man's life? You seem to advocate an attitude of acceptance over possibly millions of lives that could be lost to somehow repay a few thousand lives. Did these people tragically die in vain? Did we learn nothing at all? Why are you justifying murder?
 
Messages
141
Mate, I think you really need to re-read Jackal's reply, as I think you're missing the point of his comments.
As far as I can interpret it anyway.

 

imported_Jackal

Juniors
Messages
225
As Reservoir Dog posted in an earlier reply ..

'Each action will solicit a similar reaction.' - Osama Bin Laden in the ABC interview

This is the guts of what I'm trying to say. I'm sorry if you're not understanding it but I did have trouble expressing my point across into words.

Or maybe you're just reading too much into it ...... ?


 

Bebeto in Japan

Juniors
Messages
110
'Each action will solicit a similar reaction.' - Osama Bin Laden in the ABC interview

Which particular action do we start with as a reference point? America chooses the attacks on New York and the 5000 American civilian lives lost and any retaliation would be to "even the score". Bin Laden and his supporters consider USA's attacks on their "allies", including the 5000 Iraqi civilian lives/month as their reference point.

Both sides are guilty! This is why from the beginning, I have sat on the fence. This tit for tat bullshit is going to continue. I am sorry to you peace lovers (I am one of them), but this has been burning for too long and I can't see things improving because it has gone to the point of no return.

As for America not being naive enough to invade Afghanistan to hunt out one criminal, just remember 1986 when another accused terrorist, Colonel Moammar Ghadafi, President of Libya, was sought out by the Americans and the Americans did not hesitate to bomb the shit out of Libya. Hundreds of civilians died including Ghadafi's son, but Ghadafi himself is still alive even today. In the Gulf war, it was the USA that blew up a bomb shelter, sheltering civilians from the war. This is terrorism as far as I am concerned.

Americans have shown they do not discriminate between good and bad. Do not forget the past! As for the people responsible for the attacks on NYC last week, they are cowards for not having the galantry to admit to doing it.

The world is a completely f**ked up place and the human race is just a power hungry species.
 

G@v

Juniors
Messages
925
Source: Jane's.com
The surgical strike is a myth <!--End of Headline -->
<!--Start of Intro -->An American military operation is not in doubt; it will come sooner or later, and it will be fairly spectacular. However, President George W Bush is aware that an ill-conceived, botched military attempt will be worse than no action at all. He cannot repeat Bill Clinton’s tactics when, in response to the destruction of two of his embassies in Africa, he fired off a large quantity of cruise missiles at Afghanistan, only to discover that these managed to destroy a mosque and kill a few goats. <!--End of Intro -->

 
O

ozbash

Guest
exactly gav, the world will be more critical of a U.S cock-up than off the actual events that caused it.
it has to be a good quick and very clean assault.
 
Messages
144
I guess the US are starting to feel the public pressure and getting the ball rolling. I just found this interesting peice of news ..

Troop Deployment Begins
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Pentagon on Wednesday ordered combat aircraft to begin moving to bases in the Persian Gulf area, the first concrete sign of preparations to retaliate for last week's terrorist attacks, a senior defense official said. The combat aircraft will be preceded by teams of Air Force air controllers who will coordinate the refueling of the fighters and bombers as they deploy from the United States to the Gulf region, the official said. The deployment has been dubbed ``Operation Infinite Justice,'' the official said. The official said no aircraft have moved yet. First to move would be the air controller teams, which must establish ground communications at various places along the air route in order to coordinate refueling operations. Likely to be included in the force of combat aircraft are F-16s, F-15s and possibly B-1 bombers, the official said. The United States already has a sizeable and well-developed military presence in the Persian Gulf, with combat aircraft stationed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain and elsewhere. It appeared likely that many of the extra combat aircraft to be deployed in the next several days would go to Kuwait and Bahrain, the official said. Earlier Wednesday, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said that America's war on terrorism must go beyond Osama bin Laden and hunt down associated networks of terrorists in dozens of countries. ``We have a lot of evidence about a number of countries harboring terrorists that are working across the globe,'' Rumsfeld told CNN.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,918
'Operation Infinite Justice', eh?

Some tin pot faction within Afghanistan calls it a 'Jihad'.
President Bush and his cue cards calls it a 'Crusade'
(both mean the same thing)

...and Hollywood comes up 'Infinite Justice'... if it wasn't so bloody serious it would laughable.

Sowhile the US gets ready to hand out it's own form of justice and retribution has anyone heard of what the UN is doing in all this?
I know the secretary general, Kofi Annan, has joined other leaders in condemning the attacks on the WTC and has been seen visiting US officials on TV but what of the UN Security Council?
Last time I checked, the USA was on the UN Security Councilas is China, Russia, France and Great Britain.
The USA has not requested a meeting with the other Security Council members and it looks as if no such request is forthcoming.





 

Bebeto in Japan

Juniors
Messages
110
Another article worth reading. This bloke is an Australian journalist who goes through many historical facts, many of which I was not familiar with. The second paragraph epitomises what is wrong with the local media and only showing one side of the story, creating an ignorant society. It all comes out now but it might be too late.


Inevitable ring to the unimaginable
JOHN PILGER
IF the attacks on America have their source in the Islamic world, who can really be surprised?
Two days earlier, eight people were killed in southern Iraq when British and American planes bombed civilian areas. To my knowledge, not a word appeared in the mainstream media in Britain.
An estimated 200,000 Iraqis, according to the Health Education Trust in London, died during and in the immediate aftermath of the slaughter known as the Gulf War.
This was never news that touched public consciousness in the west.
At least a million civilians, half of them children, have since died in Iraq as a result of a medieval embargo imposed by the United States and Britain.
In Pakistan and Afghanistan, the Mujadeen, which gave birth to the fanatical Taliban, was largely the creation of the CIA.
The terrorist training camps where Osama bin Laden, now "America's most wanted man", allegedly planned his attacks, were built with American money and backing.
In Palestine, the enduring illegal occupation by Israel would have collapsed long ago were it not for US backing.
Far from being the terrorists of the world, the Islamic peoples have been its victims - principally the victims of US fundamentalism, whose power, in all its forms, military, strategic and economic, is the greatest source of terrorism on earth.
This fact is censored from the Western media, whose "coverage" at best minimises the culpability of imperial powers. Richard Falk, professor of international relations at Princeton, put it this way: "Western foreign policy is presented almost exclusively through a self-righteous, one-way legal/moral screen (with) positive images of Western values and innocence portrayed as threatened, validating a campaign of unrestricted political
violence."
That Tony Blair, whose government sells lethal weapons to Israel and has sprayed Iraq and Yugoslavia with cluster bombs and depleted uranium and was the greatest arms supplier to the genocidists in Indonesia, can be taken seriously when he now speaks about the "shame" of the "new evil of mass terrorism" says much about the censorship of our collective sense of how the world is managed.
One of Blair's favourite words - "fatuous" - comes to mind. Alas, it is no comfort to the families of thousands of ordinary Americans who have died so terribly that the perpetrators of their suffering may be the product of Western policies. Did the American establishment believe that it could bankroll and manipulate events in the Middle East without cost to itself,
or rather its own innocent people?
The attacks on Tuesday come at the end of a long history of betrayal of the Islamic and Arab peoples: the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the foundation of the state of Israel, four Arab-Israeli wars and 34 years of Israel'sbrutal occupation of an Arab nation: all, it seems, obliterated within hours by Tuesday's acts of awesome cruelty by those who say they represent the victims of the West's intervention in their homelands.
"America, which has never known modern war, now has her own terrible league table: perhaps as many as 20,000 victims."
As Robert Fisk points out, in the Middle East, people will grieve the loss of innocent life, but they will ask if the newspapers and television networks of the west ever devoted a fraction of the present coverage to the half-a-million dead children of Iraq, and the 17,500 civilians killed in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon. The answer is no. There are deeper roots to the atrocities in the US, which made them almost inevitable.
It is not only the rage and grievance in the Middle East and south Asia. Since the end of the cold war, the US and its sidekicks, principally Britain, have exercised, flaunted, and abused their wealth and power while the divisions imposed on human beings by them and their agents have grown as never before.
An elite group of less than a billion people now take more than 80 per cent of the world's wealth.
In defence of this power and privilege, known by the euphemisms "free market" and "free trade", the injustices are legion: from the illegal blockade of Cuba, to the murderous arms trade, dominated by the US, to its trashing of basic environmental decencies, to the assault on fragile economies by institutions such as the World Trade Organisation that are little more than agents of the US Treasury and the European central banks, and the demands of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund in forcing the poorest nations to repay unrepayable debts; to a new US "Vietnam" in Colombia and the sabotage of peace talks between North and South Korea (in order to shore up North Korea's "rogue nation" status).
Western terror is part of the recent history of imperialism, a word that journalists dare not speak or write.
The expulsion of the population of Diego Darcia in the 1960s by the Wilson government received almost no press coverage.
Their homeland is now an American nuclear arms dump and base from which US bombers patrol the Middle East.
In Indonesia, in 1965/6, a million people were killed with the complicity of the US and British governments: the Americans supplying General Suharto with assassination lists, then ticking off names as people were killed.
"Getting British companies and the World Bank back in there was part of the deal", says Roland Challis, who was the BBC's south east Asia correspondent.
British behaviour in Malaya was no different from the American record in Vietnam, for which it proved inspirational: the withholding of food, villages turned into concentration camps and more than half a million people forcibly dispossessed.
In Vietnam, the dispossession, maiming and poisoning of an entire nation was apocalyptic, yet diminished in our memory by Hollywood movies and by what Edward Said rightly calls cultural imperialism.
In Operation Phoenix, in Vietnam, the CIA arranged the homicide of around 50,000 people. As official documents now reveal, this was the model for the terror in Chile that climaxed with the murder of the democratically elected leader Salvador Allende, and within 10 years, the crushing of Nicaragua.
All of it was lawless. The list is too long for this piece.
Now imperialism is being rehabilitated. American forces currently operate with impunity from bases in 50 countries.
"Full spectrum dominance" is Washington's clearly stated aim.
Read the documents of the US Space Command, which leaves us in no doubt.
In this country, the eager Blair government has embarked on four violent adventures, in pursuit of "British interests" (dressed up as "peacekeeping"), and which have little or no basis in international law: a record matched by no other British government for half a century.
What has this to do with this week's atrocities in America? If you travel among the impoverished majority of humanity, you understand that it has everything to do with it.
People are neither still, nor stupid. They see their independence compromised, their resources and land and the lives of their children taken away, and their accusing fingers increasingly point north: to the great enclaves of plunder and privilege. Inevitably, terror breeds terror and more fanaticism.
But how patient the oppressed have been.
It is only a few years ago that the Islamic fundamentalist groups, willing to blow themselves up in Israel and New York, were formed, and only after Israel and the US had rejected outright the hope of a Palestinian state, and justice for a people scarred by imperialism.
Their distant voices of rage are now heard; the daily horrors in faraway brutalised places have at last come home.
* John Pilger is an award-winning, campaigning journalist.

 
V

Vertigo

Guest
Some people just look to deep into things ...
Interesting stuff.

This was posted on the message board of SA-FM.


I think it is a bit too Twilight Zoneish to have actually been meant to be this way - just a spooky (and tragic) coincidence -




The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11

September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11

After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.

119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11

Twin Towers - standing side by side, looks like the number 11

The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11

State of New York - The 11 State added to the Union

New York City - 11 Letters

Afghanistan - 11 Letters

The Pentagon - 11 Letters

Ramzi Yousef - 11 Letters (convicted of orchestrating the attack on the WTC in 1993)

Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11

Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11

The date in America was September 11 or how they do their dates 9/11 or 911 their emergency number.
Another coincidence?

It was their emergencyday.


Vertigo (seven letters, not 11thankfully).
 

G@v

Juniors
Messages
925
John Pilger is almost the type of journalist I want to agree with, unfortunately, he uses too much exaggeration in trying to get his point across, which in the endturns his argumentinto just theusual frenzied attacks on Britain and the US. I'm not suggesting his arguments are totally untrue.
 
M

meltiger

Guest
Pilger.......

LOL !

Gav, to say he "uses too much exaggeration" is a tremendous understatement. I would almost go as far to say this man is a liar. At the very least the man is a traitor to Australia.

Have you read the slimes work ?
 
Messages
4,446
Sorry about the recent absence gents, unfortunately had a few more 'pressing calls to duty'...
Anyways, the situation in the US seemingly hasn't changed a lot. Bush is still talking tough, he is talking about his love for Afghanistan people tonight in the 'address to the nation', so i can hardly see him turning around now and bombing out the Afghans
The US have a tough decision. The ball is in their court. There is no easy way to solve this, i don't think that even Bush knows what he wants to do...
Cheers all,
MFC.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,918
"(Bush) is talking about his love for Afghanistan people tonight in the 'address to the nation', so i can hardly see him turning around now and bombing out the Afghans"

MFC, with respect, todays news is in contrast to what has been said in the Presidents speech to the American people.
American and Pakistani troops are mobilised on the Afghan border and poised to attack. NATO, UK and US fighter jets have been diverted to the area as well.
Bush has said to the nations of the world that 'you are with us or you are against us'... no room for neutrality.
And today, Bush warned Afghanistan to hand over Osama bin Laden and cooperate fully in the apprehension of all terrorist groups living within Aghanistan.
If they didn't cooperate he said that the US will respond with military force. He said these terms were 'unconditional'.
While we're still debating who is actually guilty of the WTC disaster, the US has a policy of 'hands up who wants to die first!'


I hope theTaliban hand bin Laden over.
I'm afraid if they choose to call the USA's bluff on this, there'll be a new disaster of epic proportions and I doubt very much if you'll hear the word love uttered much more.

 
Messages
4,446
Willow, with respect, i think Bush realises that attacking Afghanistan with substantial military force is the last thing he wants to do. He would lose many allies if he went ahead with a full military strike. Many European countries and places such as China and Indonesia have already said that they won't support a military strike against the Afghans....
If he is able to get Laden out without using military force, then this is the best possible solution. Is Bush bluffing? I know the military build up is huge, i just think that when the time comes for words to turn into actions, Bush knows that using the 'military force' option will have dire consequences..
Bush has no problem with Afghanistan people. He has said this before. So my point is, how could he support a concentrated attack on the country after saying this?
MFC.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,918
No worries, MFC. We'll have to wait and see. All indications are that if bin Laden is not handed over than we have a war. Bush can't back down now.
It's a question of whether or not the Taliban remain defiant.
 

TheSaint

Juniors
Messages
464
India and Pakistan is the conflict that is most likely to be triggered off from these actions. The leaders of Pakistan have sided with the US, but apparently the people (2/3) don't see it that way.

America's intentions cause me to worry. They wanted to call the Opperation Infinite Justice. Doesn't sound like a well thought out action, more like revenge.

The action is suposed to be like no mission seen before. I don't see how this is possible. They wont be putting their soldiers on the ground, which basically leaves air strikes. Bombs don't generally discriminate between Innocent peopleand Terrorists. Add to the fact the CIA don't trust Pakistanian intelligence. I think it was the SMH that had an article suggesting they might throw Saddam onto the hit list while they're at it. Sounds like this mission is going to be planes dropping bombs, and missiles.
 
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