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Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

Messages
156
This is for all the ignoramuoses in this forum.
Canadian steve
John Pilger is the first and foremost in working via journalism in the world in regards to his writings on human rights for every single citizen of this planet .
The man IS anobel peace prize winner for his expose' on Pol Pot.
Do your home work before you open your big yap in future because your making Cannucks in general look stupid
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,918
John Pilger is an Australian journalist and documentary maker.
He won the Nobel Peace Prize for, I think, his work in exposing the atrocities in Cambodia.
He uses strong language to get his point across but I have never thought of him as being a liar orthe giver of misinformation.
There's no doubt that he rubs a lot of people up the wrong way, especially politicians.
The Pilger article in this thread (#391 I think) is typical of his work and as far as I can see, he is just stating historical and current facts. It is his method of delivery which seems to make him a controversial figure.

I just had a quick browse of this website and it seems to have more: http://pilger.carlton.com/

 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
I don't think anything is solved by calling names. I also don't feel responsible for doing background reading on every single thing before I ask a question about it.
I went to the Pilger website and read one article. The gist of it was complaining about how unfair the US and Britain are to keep forcing poor Saddam Hussein and Iraq to undergo weapons inspections. He concluded with the point that the US has far more nuclear weapons than any other country, and used 2 on Japan. The obvious responses are: Hussein deserves to have weapons inspection because he invaded Kuwait, and has shown a willingness to acquire dangerous weapons. The US did use nukes to end WW2, and this decision has been thoroughly debated since. But most thinking people would say that the US are unlikely to use them again.

This article confirmed my first impression that Pilger is an extreme left-wing, anti-American thinker. Since he wrote an expose on Pol Pot in Cambodia, does he also expose the brutalities of dictators like Saddam Hussein, or the Taliban in their treatment of women? His statement, in the piece in this thread, that the US is the greatest source of terrorism in the world, struck me as outrageous.
I guess he is a more respectable writer than I first thought, but seems to come at things from an extreme viewpoint. I don't share that viewpoint, as some here seem to. Feral Dragon, I don't think having a different viewpoint than you or Pilger makes me stupid; for the record I have a BA in History.
Willow, thank you for your civil tone in any disagreements we have
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,918
Steve: The world would be a pretty dull place if everyone agreed with each other.

I always thought that Pilger was interested in looking into the plight of oppressed people. The underdogs, if you like.
I don't know if this makes him anti-american. He gives the British a serve as well and has earned the ire of successive Australian Prime Ministers. At one point, there was a threat to have his passport taken off him.
As far as I can tell, he is anti-corporation and the yanks just happen to have more than their fair share of corporate giants.
I don't even know if he is extreme left wing, although he does come out with anti-imperialist talk. I believe he sees past an individual's political persuasion and just judges them by their actions.
I'm sure he has astrong following amongst the S-11 types.
You know, the S-11 alliance which organisedworld wide anti-corporaion demonstrations on September 11th, 1999... which was interestingly, one year to the day before the WTC disaster.

 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Willow: September 11, 1999 - that would be TWO years to the day, wouldn't it?
I agree with some of theanti-corporate, anti-globalization thinking. But when people start blaming the US "imperialists" for all the world's poverty and suffering, they lose me. To me, the US tries to promote democracy, freedom and free enterprise when they can. Of course their self-interest is involved too. And I know they have supported some bad regimes in the past. But they and most other countries are civilized. People who drive airliners into bulidings, and those who support them, are not civilized.
BTW, I know from your earlier posts you still think the US are ready to launch air strikes just to have a show of force. I really think that Bush and his advisors know the dangers of that, and are trying to avoid it. That's why Bush in his speech tried to prepare the American public for a longer struggle that won't have a quick easy solution
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Oops, I made my little joke before I saw your correction on the date. I sure hope I didn't make all Canadians look stupid.
 
Messages
156
canadian steve
As the holder of a B.A in history it IS ignorant in the extreme to pass of journalism as propaganda especially as the said journalist not only reports what he considers to be the truth he actually ventures into these countries at times of extreme volatility to experiance what the ordinary innocent victims of war are going through as his general perception of war is that it is totally obscene and grossly offensive to every man woman and child that cohabits this planet after all it is the only one we have.
Your first post remarks on not knowing of the man or his work would indicate that no comment from you would be necassary.
Your second post hardly qualifies you for further comment.
I would suggest further in depth study would be a basic requirement.
Use your current search engine and just type in the name John Pilger will be enough to give you a more insightful research base.
Sorry if I offended you but you yourself were offensive in the passing of loose comments.
 
Messages
156
steve
Yes pilger did a huge expose' on the testing of chemical war fare on the Kurdistani by Saddam Hussein and the atrocities that hussein was responsible for.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,918
Which Footy Code does Pilger support? I have no idea.
emsmile.gif

His biography says he went to Sydney High School. So I guess if he has time for such things, he'd be a Rugby League supporter...
Interestingly, there is no mention of any further educational institutions, no Univesity. But he has got an impressive list of qualifications. He is fundamentally a war correspondant, so I'd say he's seen things we can but imagine.
Here's the link to his biography:
http://pilger.carlton.com/home/biography

 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
f d: I was originally commenting on the post of his work on this thread. This being the internet, and not a doctoral study, I thought I could react based on what I read. I did then go and read 1 article on his site in a short time. Maybe I'll read more later, but there are lots of things out there to read and watch on TV.
I'm sure his caring for the suffering is commendable. But there are lots of other journalists who work in the hot spots of the world. They don't all come away with Pilger's views on the US. Living in Canada, I'm glad to have Canadian news media to read and watch along with the American, because Canadians do view the world differently than Americans in many cases. Since the attack, the CBC has provided more background into the "why" question than the American networks have. I still hold that nothing the US has done in the past could justify these attacks, and now they must do something about it.
Perhaps I will read other Pilger work that I agree with, but i still feel that parts of the first piece I read, on this thread, were in the nature of a propaganda piece, and not reporting
 
Messages
156
steve
I agree 100% that the usa has done any thing warrants what was done in N.Y and at the pentagon.
I am not trying to defend any acts of violence and/or atrocities that have/havenot eventuated or that may or may not eventuate in the future.
I have a19 and a17 year old sons and at the moment all they and their mates talk about is the possibility of going to war for "good ole unca sam". that to me is an obscenety that will not eventuate for my sons.
I personally cannot see conscription will be bought back in in Australia but you can rest most assuredly that if it is I will be in goal.
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
I think Australia would be a long way from the possibility of conscription. Same in Canada. I do worry about the kind of world my kids will inherit if a larger war comes out of this, but I also don't want to live in a North America constantly under threat of terrorist attacks.
Anyway, I don't think there's much more to say on this thread until something more actually happens. It will probably get to 500 and beyond eventually though.
 
Messages
4,446
Conscription?? Not likely, the future of wars does not involve masses of people going off to fight in the trenches. Chemical weapons and other missiles are the future (unfortunately)...
Onto the America/economy issue. Im not pretending to be a professor on the subject, but i have studied their impact on the global economy for a while now and I can confidently say that they have a lot to answer for. Exploitation does not even begin to explain what has happened. Huge American companies have raped and pillaged smaller economies for many years now. They have clearly taken advantage of poor citizens in many countries and ripped apart their local economies with multinationals...
Enterprise and Freedom?? Yeah, sure they are good things, but they should come with responsibilities. I do feel that some American companies lost sight of what balance is. Third world debt has spiralled totally out of control, and both directly and indirectly, alot of American companies are to blame...
Obviously, this did not warrant the horrendous attacks on the WTC and pentagon. But if Americans want to understand why so many individuals hate them, they should take a look around and see the impact that they have had in some countries....
Canadian steve, blaming the US for everything is definitely wrong. But if you are looking for the head of the global economy, you will find the US on top. Globalisation has all but killed off some economies, so its a natural progression that the finger gets pointed in the direction of the US. I do know a canadian person, and they have commented on how much of an impact that American companies have had on your economy. A negative impact?? Depends which side of the fence you sit on...
MFC.
 

Bebeto in Japan

Juniors
Messages
110
Saddam Hussein criticizes Bush over choosing-sides remark <table border=0 width="90%"> <tbody> <tr> <td>&lt;!--msg-->
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- Saddam Hussein criticized President Bush on Saturday for telling nations to choose sides in the coming war against terrorism -- saying it was a choice that Iraq has never demanded countries make. When Iraqis were killed, "we did not ask the world to be either with us or with the terror, as America is doing," the Iraqi leader told his Cabinet, in remarks carried on state TV. "Instead, we thanked those who sympathized with us, without regarding those who failed to do so as our enemies," he said. Bush told Congress Thursday that nations of the world must decide whether they are with the United States or with the terrorists. Hussein accused the U.S. leader of "treating terrorism with terrorism." It was his fourth remark about the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In his first, an open letter to the West, the leader said Americans should learn through their current pain about the suffering they've inflicted on others, particularly Iraqis and Palestinians. Apparently addressing the United States' increasing economic worries, Hussein said, "If America deals with the world's peoples in a decent manner, than its fortunes will be increased and it will face no competition. "You (Americans) will not be able to achieve stability and security, if you ride your horses and chase the people," he said. The United States considers Iraq -- still under U.S.-supported U.N. sanctions 11 years after the Gulf War -- as a state sponsor of terrorism. The U.S. military campaign now building up strength is expected to target the Afghanistan base of Osama bin Laden, suspected of masterminding the attacks on New York and Washington.
&lt;!--endmsg--></td></tr></tbody></table>
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Here is a column from TIME magazine's special edition written the day after the attacks. Some here will like it and some will hate it, but it certainly expresses what many Americans were feeling right after the attack: Sorry for the length but I don't know how to do links:

The Case for Rage and Retribution

What’s needed is a unified, unifying, Pearl Harbor sort of purple
American fury — a ruthless indignation that doesn’t leak away in a
week or two
BY LANCE MORROW

Wednesday, Sep. 12, 2001
For once, let’s have no “grief
counselors” standing by with banal
consolations, as if the purpose, in
the midst of all this, were merely to
make everyone feel better as
quickly as possible. We shouldn’t
feel better.
For once, let’s have no fatuous
rhetoric about “healing.” Healing is
inappropriate now, and dangerous.
There will be time later for the tears of misfortune note.
A day cannot live in infamy without the
nourishment of rage. Let’s have rage.
What’s needed is a unified, unifying,
Pearl Harbor sort of purple American
fury—a ruthless indignation that doesn’t
leak away in a week or two, wandering
off into Prozac-induced forgetfulness or
into the next media sensation (O.J. …
Elián … Chandra …) or into a corruptly
thoughtful relativism (as has happened
in the recent past, when, for example,
you might hear someone say, “Terrible
what he did, of course, but, you know,
the Unabomber does have a point,
doesn’t he, about modern technology?”).
Let America explore the rich reciprocal
possibilities of the fatwa. A policy of
focused brutality does not come easily to
a self-conscious, self-indulgent,
contradictory, diverse, humane nation
with a short attention span. America
needs to relearn a lost discipline,
self-confident relentlessness—and to
relearn why human nature has equipped
us all with a weapon (abhorred in decent
peacetime societies) called hatred.
As the bodies are counted, into the
thousands and thousands, hatred will
not, I think, be a difficult emotion to
summon. Is the medicine too strong?
Call it, rather, a wholesome and
intelligent enmity—the sort that impels
even such a prosperous, messily tolerant
organism as America to act. Anyone who
does not loathe the people who did these
things, and the people who cheer them
on, is too philosophical for decent
company.
It’s a practical matter, anyway. In war, enemies are enemies. You
find them and put them out of business, on the sound principle that
that’s what they are trying to do to you. If what happened on
Tuesday does not give Americans the political will needed to
exterminate men like Osama bin Laden and those who conspire
with them in evil mischief, then nothing ever will and we are in for
a procession of black Tuesdays.
This was terrorism brought to near perfection as a dramatic form.
Never has the evil business had such production values. Normally,
the audience sees only the smoking aftermath
—the blown-up embassy, the ruined barracks, the ship with a
blackened hole at the waterline. This time the first plane striking
the first tower acted as a shill. It alerted the media, brought
cameras to the scene so that they might be set up to record the
vivid surreal bloom of the second strike (“Am I seeing this?”), and
then—could they be such engineering geniuses, so deft at
demolition?—the catastrophic collapse of the two towers, one after
the other, and a sequence of panic in the streets that might have
been shot for a remake of The War of the Worlds or for
Independence Day. Evil possesses an instinct for theater, which is
why, in an era of gaudy and gifted media, evil may vastly magnify
its damage by the power of horrific images.
It is important not to be transfixed. The police screamed to the
people running from the towers, “Don’t look back!”—a biblical
warning against the power of the image. Terrorism is sometimes
described (in a frustrated, oh-the-burdens-of-great-power tone of
voice) as “asymmetrical warfare.” So what? Most of history is a
pageant of asymmetries. It is mostly the asymmetries that cause
history to happen—an obscure Schickelgruber nearly destroys
Europe; a mere atom, artfully diddled, incinerates a city. Elegant
perplexity puts too much emphasis on the “asymmetrical” side of
the phrase and not enough on the fact that it is, indeed, real
warfare. Asymmetry is a concept. War is, as we see, blood and
death.
It is not a bad idea to repeat a line from the 19th century French
anarchist thinker Pierre-Joseph Prou-dhon: “The fecundity of the
unexpected far exceeds the prudence of statesmen.” America, in
the spasms of a few hours, became a changed country. It turned
the corner, at last, out of the 1990s. The menu of American
priorities was rearranged. The presidency of George W. Bush
begins now. What seemed important a few days ago (in the media,
at least) became instantly trivial. If Gary Condit is mentioned once
in the next six months on cable television, I will be astonished.
During World War II, John Kennedy wrote home to his parents
from the Pacific. He remarked that Americans are at their best
during very good times or very bad times; the in-between periods,
he thought, cause them trouble. I’m not sure that is true. Good
times sometimes have a tendency to make Americans squalid. The
worst times, as we see, separate the civilized of the world from the
uncivilized. This is the moment of clarity. Let the civilized toughen
up, and let the uncivilized take their chances in the game they
started.


 
Messages
497
Canadian Steve,

Mate, in regards to how you paste links give this a go.
Go to the Webpage that you want the article pasted from. On top of your screen, in the address section which is already displayed, take your cursor and double click the address. It should 'high-light' the address from that page. Next hit CTRL (holding it down)and thenC on your keyboard. That will automaticaly 'hold' that address in the memory of your PC. Next, come to this or any other threads reply, and when the little 'I' is flashing on the section where youwrite your post, hit CTRL (holding it down) and thenV on your keyboard. This will paste the Web address instantly.
You can write your post firstand then hit CTRL (holding it down) and thenV, which will paste the address at the bottom of your post instead the top.

Instead of double clicking your mouse, you can also hold down your right mouse button and 'drag' the cursor along what you want copied.

You can pretty much use this procedure to 'copy' and 'paste' just about any link, pictureor article.

The best way is to practise ison your Emails, Microsoft Works or the likes.

I hope this helped.

Chers.


 

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