Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

[Willow]

Steve:
I think I said to you sometime earlier in this thread that it's refreshing to see your opinion and that still stands.
However, you say:
"I would also repeat the point that if there was true censorship, we wouldn't have seen the recording of Bin Laden's statement on US."
I let this go the first time but you seem to think that an interview with a bloke who calls for an all out attack on America is in someway not censored. I saw the the interview and the impression was clear... Bin Laden is mad and is better off dead. I would have liked to have seen the rest of the interview.
You actually back up this argument when you said:
"...today one of Bin Laden's spokesmen today gave another statement, including comments to the effect that the WTC attacks were good deeds, and we should expect more of the same...That's a scary statement. How can civilized countries reason with people like that?"
You see, Steve. Thanks to a couple of well time statement releases, they've got you thinking that America is civilised and that the enemy is not civilised.

Theseare the prime objectives of propoganda: To win the hearts and minds of the people, to create an 'us against them' mentality, to make the other side look evil and finally, to make our side look like the good guys.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Willow: The spokesman actually said the plane attacks were good deeds. I think that IS uncivilized, don't you? Read his whole statement. I think it IS scary that these people want a war between the whole Muslim world and the Western world. And that some Muslims may listen to that message and commit more acts of terrorism. You can say I'm being manipulated by propaganda if you want, but I feel that my opinion is my own, and a legitimate one.

 

[CanadianSteve]

A few weeks ago I posted this message on another thread and it got no response. I'll try again:
"Perhaps some people here would like the US to say this: On further examination of our foreign policy we realize we have brought these attacks on ourselves. We will stay out of the Middle East and not retaliate for the attacks. Good luck Israel, you're on your own now. And Saudis, we hope can can count on a continued supply of your oil, but we understand if you don't."
My point was, and is, that I can't figure out what some of you think the U.S. SHOULD do. You criticize the U.S. for past foreign policy. You criticize them now for censorship and possible civilian casualties (unintentional, unlike those in NY and Washington) If instead of attacking Afghanistan they tried to blockade it to put pressure on, you would say they were unfairly punishing civilians.
I think the U.S. has admirably been very measured and careful in their response to the terrorist attacks. Just so I know what I'm arguing against, Willow, Bebeto, _____, and others, what do you think the U.S. should do instead of what they are doing? Of course, you can just keep criticisizing if you want, but I'd be interested in hearing your ideas on what you'd like to see them do also.
(As I type this I just heard Donald Rumsfeld on CNN say they did "everything possible to select targets with minimum unintended damage."

 

[Willow]

Don't misinterpret me Steve. I always think you are entitled to your opinion. The juries' still out of who is manipulated by who.
IMO, there is no way that the WTC attack was a good deed. It's a low act to say such a thing. My point, (again), is that we are not getting the full picture here. The release of these statements was designed to make people more angry and therefore give further justification to the bombing of Afghanistan.

I have also read other things into the statements. The interviewees, without the war cries, also said that the attack on the WTC was designed to attack America's heartland and was in retaliation for years of America and American foreign policy occupying other countries and killing countless thousands of innocent people. They maintain that this didn't just happen overnight and US foreign policy is to blame. Thye claim that America started this war... not the other way around. I guess it all depends on which news report you read.

What Bebeto said about the US setting fire to the oil wells in Iraq and Kuwait is true. They blamed Sadam and then branded him an environmental vandal. The truth came out afterwards and I understand it got almost zero coverage in the USA... it was largely censored.

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

Steve...This is the whole problem with the media and this is on both sides. Bush can tell the muslims this war is not against them but the fact remains, it is the muslims who have been getting their ass kicked by the Americans for several years now. Just like the pro-American media brainwashes its people, the anti-American one is not that much better. Just remember, George Bush Senior had the audacity to tell the world 11 years ago that the war was not against the Iraqi people, it was against the Iraqi regime. History will tell you that was the biggest lie ever told. The regime is still in power while the people suffer without any humanitarian aid because the Americans have made it illegal to send aid to Iraq. How do you expect the muslims to trust the words of the son of the biggest terrorist in world history (in their eyes)? This is why it is easy for muslims to look to Osama Bin Laden as their saviour. Nobody has taken on the Americans to claim equal rights. It is unfortunate that to beat the Americans at their own game, it takes a sick minded person like Osama Bin Laden to do it. To beat Osama Bin Laden and his supporters, it will take a worse person to do it....hence we are living in fear of what will happen next.

As for those Oil rigs, it was reported on a documentary on the ABC here in Australia and various media outletsaround the world. It is unfortunate that those media outlets don't have the same influence as a CNN and it is only a handful of people who get the news (yet another example of media hiding the truth). By the way, the Americans have not denied it. It was all a while back so I can't remember all the details as to why, but I am sure it had plenty to do with the propaganda war between the two sides. It certainly helped the Yanks at the time butI do appologise for the fact thatI don't have all the details. if I ever find anything, I will be sure to post it here.

Mate, let me just say, war is the dirtiest game. All sides try every act of cruelty to get the upper hand while supressing the truth about their deeds. As someone already mentioned (I think Willow), it is the "winner" who writes the history books and so you will only ever hear their version of events. They can write and report whatever they like.

 

[CanadianSteve]

"The biggest lie ever told" Wow, worse than anything Hitler or Stalin ever said?
My take on Iraq is that Bush Sr. should have continued on and fnished the job by deposing Saddam. Maybe things would be better now if that had happened. But I would guess that at the time many who are unhappy with Iraq's current situation would have criticized Bush if he had kept that war going longer.
I can't understand why the Yanks would have burned those oil wells just for the sake of propaganda. They were going to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait anyway, why destroy oil wells that they were trying to protect their access to in the first place.?
I'm still waiting to see what the US critics here think the US should do now.

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

what do you think the U.S. should do instead of what they are doing? Asked by Steve

For one, stop supporting Israel in their ILLEGAL occupation of the West Bank, The Gaza Strip.

Israel invaded sothern Lebanon in 1982. Did America protest? No! They SUPPORTED Israel.

Israel continues to ILLEGALLY build settlements on Palestinian land. Did America protest? NO! The supported Israel.

Iraq invades Kuwait after America said it was an internal issue if Iraq decides to do this. What happened? "Saddam Hussein is making the mistake of his life! Hitler revisited" - George Bush Senior. Then war rages between the two countries.

One rule for Israel and one for a muslim state. Can you see the reasons for the resentment? Can you see why the hate America? Can you see why they think America started a holy war?

I am not saying I actually agree with EITHER side because both sides have shown to be savages.

But fair is fair. If Israel continues to violate UN resolutions and to make things worse, America blocks any attempt by the UN security council to take action against Israel, then how do you think the people who have been victims of Israel feel?

One rule for all! Once one side is favoured over another, it is a recipe for disaster. This disaster is happening right now.

So what should America do? The containing game they were playing up to a few days ago was great but it will not solve anything while the USA backs Israel in violating human rights. This inequality is what creates people like Osama Bin Laden the opportunity to make himself a hero to the millions of oppressed people.

If this war is not against Islam, the Americans should be demonstrating this with actions, not cheap words which they don't EVER abide by. There must be some middle ground or else this conflict will escalate to a point of no return (which in my opinion it already has).

 

[Willow]

Steve:
The oil wells were set on fire by US troops. Either by accident or on purpose. The crime was that they tried to blame the other side. This is fact.

The suffering within Iraq is real. It's happening now. The people are being being made to pay for the expansionist ideals of others... be it Sadam, Bush or some faceless corporate giant.

This is nothing to do with past US foreign policy. The sanctions on the civilians of Iraq is current US foreign policy.

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

Steve....I agree with you 100% about the USA taking out Saddam. Afterall, that is what they said they would do before the war started (this war is against the Iraqi regime and not the people). Had they have done the job, there wouldn't be so many cynical people out there.

By the way, I see you feel that I am slightly anti-American and pro-Islamic countries. I am actually against both sides. In a similar forum which contains plenty of anti-American/Israeli comments, I have actually been accused of being a Zionist only because I have been trying to balance the arguement and try to make them see why the other side does what it does. It is only when a level of understanding is reached that you can have peace. Both sides must come together and stop their selfishness and understand that we are all humans.

 

[legend]

A sad fact of life is there will always be the need for one country to police the entire world and at this point in time it is the U.S. I also don't think you can leave the muslims countries to go unchecked because they will run riot. They have very little regard for anyone who does not comply with their views and are the most intolerant of religions on the earth. These are facts. America is doing what they think is rightand in the best interests of the western world. I find it laughable that people blame the U.S and the faceless corporations for their actions yet sit here on the net and freely use the technology and freedom of speech these faceless corporations and countries provide. To me that is the ultimate hypocrisy. People live under the umbrella of relative security yet question the motives of the U.S and the protection they provide and they way they do it. I find that insulting.

Bebeto, if you want to get into the nitty gritty, the jews were around a long time before the Muslims and Catholics so why shouldnt they have some right to that land as well?

The Muslim religion was not started until approx 700-800 A.D and all muslims are descendents of Abraham as are the jews so that argument is very flawed.

My suggestion to all who oppose the actions of the U.S and the faceless corporations is to switch off your pc, burn it in protest, throw out your designer label clothes, sell your cars, sell the tv and any other item of value , get on your donkey and go down to the well and fetch some water.

 

[Willow]

" I find it laughable that people blame the U.S and the faceless corporations for their actions yet sit here on the net and freely use the technology and freedom of speech these faceless corporations and countries provide. To me that is the ultimate hypocrisy. "

Well I glad it gives you a good laugh Legend. I always get a similar laugh when when people complain about smog but still drive to work in a motor car.
I guess the same could be said about doctors ina war zone who are in the business of saving lives. They patch up a soldier so he can be go back to fight in the front line.
Hypocritical? No, just ironic. Life is full of these little ironies.

We have to live with what we have mate. Does that mean we have to close our eyes as well?

 

[legend]

Mate, laughable is very different to having a good laugh. To me it is not ironic it is still hypocritical. I am also not suggesting we close our eyes to the situation but I find it a case of biting the hand that feeds you to a certain extent. We all have a choice and that's where hypocrisy comes into the argument. These things also have to be looked at in context and to say the stiuation of a doctor in a warzone is the same as a couple of lefties using the net is grossly absurd.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Legend, your point about corporate 'protests' is true. I think we are all hypocritical in a way, i know that if i lived my beliefs to the letter of the law, i wouldn't have many possessions! 'Big business' has bought the western world to its most advanced position EVER. However, 'big business' has also crippled alot of smaller countries....
Americans ask why they hate them...I cringe everytime someone asks that on TV, it is so ignorant of them. The middle east, geez, its a common perception that the US bankroll Israel, of course they are going to hate them....
And to top it off today, that jerk who does the morning show on the Foxs new Channel....what is his name, the blonde guy?? Grrrr, can't stand him, today he was making a joke that one of the guys who died in the bombing last night had a 'rough night'... That, my friends, is a perfect example of why so many feel hatred towards the US.
MFC.

 

[Willow]

Legend: Ifind it absurd the notion that because I own a PC and have a number of mod cons that all of a sudden I have to shut my trap and toe the line.
IMO, I don't owe anything to big business. They don't give a stuff about you, me or anyone here. Why should I give a stuff about them?
Biting the hand that feeds me - indeed! We're consumers Legend,.... we pay for what we get... often through the nose.

BTW, while we're at it, I don't go along with the view thatwe need a country to police the entire world. It's just code for imperialism. In fact, it's one step away from condoning 'survival of the fittest.'
It might take 1000 years but I'd like to think that one day we can do away with this primitive notion that conquerers and dictators of any kind are justified in their actions.

 

[legend]

Willow, I admire your nobility but there areabout 1 billion muslims who would have a good laugh at the last paragraph of yours. To think that all nations big and small can live in relative peace and harmony is naive. We will never see it in our lifetime and I seriously doubt whether our children will either. There are too many people who are just waiting for the right opportunity to seize power and force their opinions on the world in a way detrimental to western society.

I can't see how America fits into the role of either conqueror or dictator. They only became a superpower beacuse someone picked a fight with them and showed the rest of the world what they were and are capable of. Sort of like Saints winning eleven straight premierships. Japan tried to wipe them out and they came back bigger and better and seized their opportunity through fate to show the world how things should be done. Had it not been them it would have been either Japan or Germany who are both staunch allies of the U.S now.

BTW, If the Arab world condones the presence of the Jews in Israel and are trying to kill them off are'nt they indirectly carrying on what Hitler failed to accomplish?

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

Legend.......Judaism did come many years before Islam, nobody can deny that, but nonetheless both religions have their own interpretations on why they are the real owners of "the promised land". I believe it is about time they both got together and realised that they can either be at war together or live in peace together. Tolerance is the only way although not the prefered way by a few who go out of their way to stop the peace process. Arafat has survived several assasination attempts by his own people and Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated callously by a Jewish fundamentalist. My earlier gripe with America is that Israel violates human rights, the United Nations Security Council votes against Israel but USA uses their VETO rights to stop any action against Israel. This is grossly unfair. This is the cause for the resentment.

By the way, Yasser Arafat recognises Israel's right to exist. It is the only reason the West recognises Arafat as the leader of the Palestinian people. It was not always the case I admit, but he now accepts the nation of Israel will exist and he accepts their right to exist. Now how about Israel getting out of the territories they are occupying ILLEGALLY? Well the only country stopping this is the USA. As far as the Arabs are concerned, the difference betwen freedom and persecution is the USA. Hence this conflict.

 

[Willow]

I'm not really that naive Legend. I never suggested that any of us will see world peace. In fact, your doubt that our children will see world peace is much more optimistic than anything I could suggest.
I said it might take 1000 years.
If I'm wrong... be sure to look me up and let me know.

The conquerors and dictators of history are not always the enemy.
I actually have a strong admiration for Alexander the Great who was a great military leader and used methods of warfare which are still studied today. But he still expanded his empire and occupied other lands. As conqueror, no one would dare challenge him. His power was absolute and if anyone crossed him, he would punish them.

The suggestion that US expansion began with Pearl Harbour is quite inaccurate.

The US expansionism probably began during the Spanish-American war of 1898. After the Americans drove the Spanish out, they then pursued them across the Pacific. The war was over, but America seized the opportunity to occupy Pacific Islands and only stopped their expansion after they took over the Philipines.
This seem to set the pattern and now, 100 years later we see American influence dominating every corner of the globe. Opponents put themselves in peril if they speak out against these occupying forces.
Thats not to say that I support the Taliban in any shape or form. They are clearly the worst example of Totalitarianism. But I do question why such a brutal regime was given assistance by the US govt in the first place. It reeks of some US 'meddling in the affairs of other states' that went horribly wrong.





Your last point about Arabs trying to wipe out Jews confuses me. It seems to ignore the attempts by Israel to directly exterminate Palenstinians. The other view being that Jewish state is guilty of trying to do to the Paelestinians what the Nazis did to the Jews in WWII.

 

[legend]

Bebeto, how can you say the Jews have no right to be in the Arab land? It was their descendants who first occupied the land and as a displaced race where else besides the land of their forefathers are they supposed to relocate to? Don't the Palestinians also violate human rightsby sending in suicide bombers to crowded markets, shopping malls and nightclubs to create complete mayhem? Anyway the Jews have shown they can handle an attack by multiple Arab countries, hence the outcome of the six day war and I feel they could handle themselves just as efficiently again if the need arises.

Again Bebeto, if all muslims and Jews are descendants of Abraham should'nt all who are descendants have the right to share the same land. Just because the Islamic community has existed for 1200 years does not give them the total right to disregard all who came before them. If there were no Islam, the majority of the Arab worldwould be Jewish, so I still think the argument is flawed. You cant just talk about Arabs rights after the inception of Islam or Arabs rights A.D.

Willow, the U.S had to do something to stop the Soviet Union from occupying Afghanistan at the height of the cold war. If they had not done that who knows where it would have ended up.

You also say after the Americans drove the Spanish out in 1898. I must apologise as I know very little about this war but I will research it but from what you are saying the Spanish tried to invade America? If this is true, then who was the aggressor? If it was the Spanish then the U.S had every right to retaliate in a manner they saw fit. I never suggested the U.S expansion began with Pearl Harbour, I was merely suggesting the U.S was reluctant to be involved in another world war and were only dragged into the conflict after the surprise attack on Pearl Harbour. They were offering assistance to the British as far as oil and machinery supplies but always stopped short of committing troops to a conflict in Europe. I can't see how they can be aggressors in this situation either. Somebody tried to challenge them and they rose to the occasion and defended their country after some humiliating losses and they reigned supreme at the end of the day. If I am missing something here feel free to fill in the blanks.

 

[Willow]

Umm, yeah The Spanish did indeed invade North America and Central America starting with the Spanish funded Columbus expedition.The locals at the time certainly saw it as being an invasion.
Like the English, the Spanish kind of overstayed their welcome. Some of the descendants of the original inhabitants say the Europeans never left but that's a whole different issue.

 

[imported_feral dragon]

Canadian Steve
Mate your just deadset unlucky.
Australians do have the good fortune to be so far geographically removed from the situation at hand that we can see what is going on and view it in an objective manner.
To bad your computer froze up may be you should try again but what was being said is that the food drops are a meatless gruel containing bean salad and bread the packaging it is in has in 6 different languages none of which the Afghanis' can read that it is a "gift from the people of America".World aid experts are saying that they can truck in far greater quantities of food in a couple of days than the food drops are actually delivering.
The truth of the whole sad saga is that U.S interventionist politics has bought this war against America.
2 hundred thousand million dollars spent on a strategic defense stategy and yet 6 thousand women and children die per month in the middle east due wholly to the U.S imposed sanctions.Suddenly the U.S can come up with 2 million dollars worth of extremely poorly implemented food drops as a propaganda ploy just so they can say "look at us we are not evil" Bull f**king shit the American govt. is every bit as responsible for terrorism as bin laden saddam or any other lunatic in this world and the sooner the gutless bastards stand up say NO MORE the sooner every human being who coinhabits this planet can breathe a little easier.