Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

[CanadianSteve]

I still have a copy of Brave New World with the foreword by Huxley that _____ mentions. I used to like a number of such futuristic books in high school - 1984, Fahrenheit 451, A Canticle for Liebowitz. I don't think a movie was ever made of Brave New World, I wonder why not?
Maybe we need a separate literature section around here. What a forum this is.
______ , get a real name will ya? Or can I call you "blank"?

 

[imported____]

Canadian Steve, there actually has been a movie about Brave New World, come on surely you can't believe that Hollywood would let any idea pass them by. It wasn't a raging success but it was made, we never saw it but stills from the movie appeared on some of the guides we got.

MFC, hey don't ride off Othello, it was good!! That devious Iago, the naive Desdemona.....ahh like a soap opera. I guess some of the reasoning behind Brave New World being my least favorite was that year we studied some quality texts....two Shakespearean plays, the Crucible, and Browning for the poetry section. Apart from Browning, Brave New World was probably the most depressing, of course Browning's "Andrea Del Sarto" takes the cake for most depressing thing we did.

About the savage maybe there are some factors that make the audience relate to him but other times he's a psycho, he talks about Lenina quoting Shakespeare yet even Shakespeare had his characters become lovers in a matter of days. His spirituality is also a strange mix of Christianity as well as other religions and he's always so emotional. I thought the end was a bit predictable as well....with all those lashings and what not it was a bit obvious where it was all going....anyway I guess that's just my opinion.

 

[Willow]

Latest news reports say that the US led 'coalition' is on shaky ground.
Indonesia's leader, Megawati Sukarnoputri has reacted to domestic pressure and criticised the US attacks on Afghanistan.

Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation, was an important ally for George W Bush.

In the early days following September 11th, Megawati Sukarnoputri met with the US President and this symbolised Indonesia's solidarity with the USA.
However, following repeated footage of civilian casualties, in particular scared and injured Afghani children, the pressure was growing on the Indonesian President to condemn the attacks.

Opponents of the US attack have also pointed out that the Afghanistan authorities have indicated a willingness to hand Osama bin Laden over for trial to a neutral country - an offer that has been flatly rejected by President Bush.

Earlier this week, the US admitted that a village had been hit by bombs and innocents were killed. The vision of this is now being shown in people's loungerooms around the world.

 

[Willow]

Overnight, an American warplane dropped two 450kg bombs on a Red Cross compound in Afghanistan. The US military has released a statement saying that the bombs were inadvertedly dropped and that it is investigating the incident.

Meanwhile, the Pakistan President has said in a TV press conference that the majority of his citizens are against the bombing of Afganistan but he is still standing by the coalition.

The US President has been busy calling on allies to offer assistance as the war appears set to escalate.
In response, the Australian Prime Mininister has announced today that Australia will be deploying 1,500 personnel to the conflict. This includes a number of re-fuelling planes and the HMAS Sydney which is en-route to replace the HMAS Anzac.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

So they should be criticised. They have bombed civilian establishments and now they gone for the Red Cross buildings. Sorry, im willing to make some allowances for accidents in occasions such as this, but how could they get it so wrong? They have the most sophisticated technology available to them, to make such an error on several occasions is unforgiveable.....
How the hell does the US expect to keep the alliance together when they are making goof ups like this. The word triggerhappy comes to mind here, i hate to say it, but the arrogance of the US is shining through again. 'Inadvertedly'.....bullshit. Bush needs to pull his troops into order. The taliban wouldn't have had mass amounts of 'bombing targets' that would take 10 days to destroy.
I support the US in finding the criminals, but I also think they are making a HUGE error in making such dumb mistakes.....
What will happen if the Indonesians uprise?? There are 200m of them, a bit more then a drop in the ocean
MFC.

 

[CanadianSteve]

I think the Americans' next move will be to start bombing the Taliban defensive line north of Kabul, to allow the Northern Alliance forces to defeat them and re-take the capital. This would allow the Northern Alliance forces to do the work on the ground, instead of US and British ground troops being used. I hope this works, but it will be complicated to overthrow the Taliban and put another government in place. And of course the US will then be accused of meddling in another country.
I support the US actions, but I'm starting to wonder what will be the end of all this. If they overthrow the Taliban, it will still be hard to find bin Laden. If they did take out bin Laden, of course the terrorism still wouldn't end. What would be the next move? It could be a long time before this is all over.
A few posts back we were talking about the Palestinian situation being a source of much of the trouble. However, even if a settlement was made between Palestine and Israel, and Israel agreed to stop expanding, would terrorism end then? I don't think so. Bin Laden and his fanatical followers seem to want nothing less than a war between Islam and the west, and even peace in Palestine wouldn't satisfy them. A US politician on CNN made the point one or two nights ago that in the 90's when the Clinton administration had some promising (at the time) peace talks going between Israel and the Palestinians, bin Laden's group chose that time to do one of their bombing attacks. I forget the details of which attack that was, but the point was that the extremists aren't really even interested in peace in the Middle East

 

[Willow]

The Red Cross reports that the bombing of civilians is worst than first reported. The organisation says that the bombing ofit's compoundwill create great hardship. They say they are severely under-resourced and have asked for increased aid.
With winter fast approaching, the Red Cross reports that no less than 5 million people in Afghanistan will be homeless and starving.

Steve: Are you getting any of this news in your neck of the woods?

 

[imported_feral dragon]

M.F.C.
You are 100% correct.
On the subject of Idonesia they have a military that makes ours look like a pop gun.

 

[G@v]

Also on Indonesia. They have a military which probably isn't used to taking on another properly equiped and well trained military.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

I dont know Gav...Indonesia spend a ridiculously high % of their budget on the military (2nd hand info off a friend, but ill believe 'em)...
And also, our ties with Ms Megawati isn't to flash after all the problems involving East Timor. I'd hate to see it get to that stage however, and it shouldn't.....
MFC.

 

[Willow]

I don't think Indonesia are going to have a revolution (MFC) and then set their miltary onto anyone (Feral Dragon). I think the inferrence being that Indonesia poses a threat to the region and in particular, Australia. Correct me if I've read that wrong.

I've never been able to subscribe to this view that Indonesia is eyeing off Australia.
I know this flies in the face of what many people think...in fact, I've been hearing about the danger from the north for over a quarter of a century now.
I remember the urban myth that Indonesian school kids were taught to call Australia 'South Irian'... a story that was firmly believed by many well educated people but turned out to be complete nonsense.

I can't see Indonesia invading Australia forfour reasons:
1.) The coastline is impossible to defend. This is the same for any invading force as it is for the defending force. Once conquered, it will be conquered again. Any military stragedy would also have to include occupation which in Australia's case is a vertially impossible.
2.) The Indonesian army, although the largest in the world, is hardly the most well equipped or the most disciplined. The Indonesian economy has been struggling for years and there is no reason to see that changing in the near future.
3.)The history of war is littered with stories of failed invasions. If Indonesia was serious about expansionism. They would choose smaller and easier nations first. They already have when they invaded East Timor. Despite the massive weight of the Indonesian military, they couldn't conquer this small island. Pressure from the international community and persistent resistence from the East Timorese eventually sawan endto occupation.
So if Indonesia couldn't take over East Timor, what hope have they got of successfully invading Australia?
4.) Finally, the main reason why Indonesia would never invade Australia are for ecomomic reasons. Both countries have strong trade links and are slowly becoming close neighbours....indeed Indonesia would be foolish to go to war when the opportunity exists to make a quid by not going to war.

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

Does anyone here have any information or know anything at all about this "Northern Alliance" group who has been fighting the Taliban? I know that the Americans want to help these guys topple the Talibans but who are they? Will this be another group that America helped bring into power and then become a nuisance like the Baath party of Iraq and the Talibans of Afghanistan? I know that the Northern Alliance is backed by Iran, the same country which sponsors Hezbollah, the islamic militant group operating in Southern Lebanon, who is against American and Israeli interests. Iran themselves don't see eye to eye with America as well but they are both backing the same mob. Who is on whose side here? I am getting awfully confused. Do the Americans know who they are dealing with or is helping the Northern Alliance a band aid solution? I hope the Americans do know what they are doing and they are one step ahead of me because I can't make sense of what is happening. I also want to know if the Americans will help out Pakistan after the crisis is over, because we can see the divide that exists between the people and the government which has provided moral support for the USA. I fear that Pakistan is a bloodbath waiting to happen.

 

[Willow]

Bebeto: From the sounds of things, you already know a fair bit about the Northern Alliance.

I might add that Pakistan are firmly opposed to the Nth Alliance gaining control of Afghanistan. The fact that see the N.A. as enemies or potential enemies can only lead to further instability.

 

[imported_feral dragon]

Willow
I don't disagree with the points you raise however Indonesia is geographically a small area to be supporting a population of 2 hundred million people and whether it be today tomorrow or in fifty years time they are going to be looking to transplant a large number of people.
The latest news that I have heard is that the U.S. government is now accusing a high ranking Indonesian government official of having continuing close ties with Bin Laden.
On the subject of the Taliban this attachment is the best that I can do for now.

 

[mud n blood]

I think it's time for some heavy weaponry to be utilised by the allies. This Anthrax shit has now pushed the envelope that little bit too far, and no-one should have to put up with it from anyone, anywhere.

And isn't it amazing how slowly but surely the scumbag countries in this world peeter back alongside each other, after initially saying how terrible the World Trade Center incisent was.

The yanks have what they call a fuel-air bomb. They should use it. It's not a nuke, but it's the next best thing, and will stop anything in it's path.

And before all the bleeding hearts start their usual yarping, just revisit the images of September 11 before commenting.

 

[legend]

If anyone has seen the movie outbreak you will know of the bomb mud'n blood is referring to.

Australia has also committed about 1550 armed forces personnel to the military action in Afghanistan. The SAS will be on the ground in weeks and they will have a specific purpose, to weed out the terrorists. Initial numbers will be about 150 SAS soldiers from Perth and they are usually combat ready within 24 hours. Australias invoolvement is about to escalate in a major way and gives a lot of unhappy Indonesians a little more reason to hate Australia.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Did the US use that bomb against Iraq in the Gulf War? I remember something about a bomb that kills people but doesn't damage buildings. I hate to sound warlike, but wouldn't that be a good weapon to use against bin Laden hiding in the mountains, away from civilians? But I don't know if that would get to him and his men if indeed they are in caves in the mountains.
Willow: Yes all the news gets to us here in NA. Let's keep in mind that the Taliban wouldn't be above lying and exaggerating civilian deaths to gain sympathy. I also think and hope there won't be too much more bombing near cities, as there can't be many targets left. As I said above I hope the US starts attacking the Taliban military in the field, away from civilians. Not that that will be without complications.
Not living in your area, I've never heard much about the threat of Indonesia invading Aus. It sounds unlikely to me. One thing not mentioned is that the US and Britain, if not the rest of NATO, would quickly come to your aid and stop such an invasion. Perhaps some of you would think a little more of US foreign policy in that case.

 

[El Duque]

Yeah.it's time to stop pussying around and take these SOB's out!

They look forwatd to death so let's give it to them.

 

[Willow]

Feral Dragon:
I guess you're right. To steal a quote from from our illustrious leaders 'In the fullness of time, we should know more...'
I'm not entirely sure if the Indonesian thing is of immediate concern, but who knows what the future may hold?

Canadian Steve:
The reports on the destruction of the Red Cross compound came from the Red Cross, not the Taliban.
The reports that about 5 million people are about to face starvation and freezing conditions in the coming winter also came from the Red Cross. IMO, this is a little more than 'an eye for an eye.'

The bomb I think you are referring to is called a Neutron Bomb. It kills all living things but leaves the buildings standing. (This is quite different from the Air-fuel bomb which simply sends fire balls in all directions destroying everything in the vicinity). The Neutron Bomb was developed in the USA in the 1980s and a number of world conventions have asked for it to be banned. I never heard much else about it beyond that.

I just heard a report on the ABC that there are now reports of Taliban soldiers raiding a NGO supply station and taking away all the food and blankets that were meant for civilians.

 

[CanadianSteve]

I heard yesterday that the Red cross compound was hit by accident, but only 1 person was wounded, none killed. I haven't heard any update since on that. Before that I heard about a stray bomb that hit a residentioal area a mile away from its intended target in Kabul. I still believe the US is trying to limit and avoid civilian casualties, as opposed to indiscriminate bombing.
If the US announced tomorrow that they were stopping their attacks because of too many accidental civilian casualties, do you think bin Laden and his network would stop the anthrax attacks and promise not to do any more terrorism in the US? Do you think the Taliban would change their ways and become a benevolent government?
I wish the US and allies could have a quick victory, so they could start helping those 5 million people sooner. I don't think the Taliban will cooperate in that though.
I still don't know enough about them, but the Air-fuel bomb sounds worse than the neutron bomb to me. I thought they used the neutron bomb in Iraq, but maybe my memory is wrong. I still wonder if it would work well away from the cities, where they might hit military personnel and terrorists, even in caves(?), but not civilians