Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

[CanadianSteve]

More food could be trucked in to Afghanistan in 2 days. Sure, and the Taliban would take it all, not distribute it to those who need it. Hopefully when the Taliban is deposed the Americans and/or the UN can come in and do a proper job of relief. Meanwhile the food drops are better than nothing, unless you are determined to see everything the US does as bad.
I didn't realize that only in Australia do people see the world situation clearly. Actually here in canada we have a mostly liberal media that often finds fault with US policy. As a country we try to distance ourselves from US foreign policy. But in this case, when madmen have slit the throats of stewardesses and flown jets into buildings, most Canadians seem to be on the same side as the Americans. Maybe when you live down under and feel safe from the terrorist threats you can have the luxury of having a different perspective.
Willow and Legend: a few messages back on the subject of when the US became the world's power or policeman: After WW1 the US could have become a world power, but after Versailles they chose to withdraw and go back to their isolationism. Their idea then was to look after themselves and stay out of Europe's troubles. Only after they were brought into World War for the 2nd time did they assume the role of world power. And of course the next few decades they spent locked in a cold war struggle with the Soviet Union and its allies.
To touch on the subject of Israel that has been raised here: If the US stopped supporting Israel their Arab neighbours would soon try to wipe them out of existence

 

[Willow]

Steve:
It's true that the US went through a period of being isolationists for a while after WWI.
The Treaty of Versailles appalled many US senators and they were right to be appalled.
The reparations forced upon Germany and it's allies did more than enough to see facism in Europe get a foothold.

As for Israel. IMO, the single greatest political blunder of the 20th century was allowing a a Jewish state to be installed in the middle of Arab territory in 1948.
The allies thought they could get away with it but history has shown that it has caused more conflicts than any other issue over the last 50 years.

One of the stories I've heard is that after WWII, the Jews were offered a number of alternative locations to relocate to.
It's probably an urban myth, but there was short list which included a section of Northern Australia. Plenty of land and far far away from any of the world's hot spots.
Unfortunately, there was an insistence that the Jewish state be set up in the holy land
Like I said, probably some urban myth but methinks we wouldn't be having these problems if Israel was positioned between Broome and Darwin.

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

Legend......I am sure you have misunderstood me somewhere because at no stage have I said that I against Israel's existance. I am only against occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. I am also against the 1982 invasionof Lebanon. Mind you, I think it was impractical to form a Jewish state in that part of the world, but like all unrepresented nations, they wanted a piece of land. Being of Assyrian background, I can actually sympathise with the Jews in their search of a national identity. Assyrians and Kurds don't have their own country and both would love to have a national identity, but I can't see the practicality of Iraqis making way for the formation of Kurdistan, Assyria and Babylonia because of historical links to that part of the world. Perhaps, after seeing the problems Israel has created (some their fault, some their neighbours fault), the United Nations has ignored the cries for help from these unrepresentated nations.

In any case, whether it was a mistake or not, there is now a country called Israel. The sooner both the Arabs and Jews accept each other, the sooner will we have peace. With the world policeman America constantly justifying Israel's inhumane actions, you will always have resentment towards Israel and America. Since the uprising last year hundreds of people have lost their lives mostly being Palestinians. While Palestinians throw rocks, Israel fires machine guns. In the eyes of the western world, Israel is still the victim. Try telling the Palestinians who have lost their homes to Jewish illegal settlements that Israel is the victim. Back in the days of Rabin and Arafat, they were getting somewhere. Until of course Rabin was assasinated by one of his own.

If America plays policeman, judge and jury, until their actions are considered fair in keeping with UN resolutions and until America stops using their right of VETO, there will be resentment towards the nation which makes Israel prosper at their expense. Legend, I am the first to admit, it is a messy situation. On another forum which is having a discussion about the same subject only more pro-Arab/Islam, I have actually been trying to explain Israel's actions and I have been labled a Zionist. I am glad that while there are quite a few different opinions here, there has been no personal attacks or name calling (even thoughI compared someone here to a terrorist a few days ago).

 

[CanadianSteve]

Willow and Bebeto: I know the restoration of Israel has caused problems, but the Holy Land is where they had to go. That's their historical and spiritual home. It wouldn't have worked to just place them in some other country, any more than you could successfully plant those Assyrians or Kurds in Australia. Years ago, as a teen I used to wonder why the Irish Catholics didn't all move to the south, and the Protestants all move to the North. Of course that type of solution is too simplistic.
In a speech the other day, President Bush referred to the possibility of a Palestinian state. So maybe the Americans are starting to think that a solution in Palestine would help ease the terrorist problems

 

[CanadianSteve]

Right now the Americans are finding more cases of anthrax, being sent in letters in the mail, apparently. This story started in Florida, but now there are 2 cases in NYC, and just this minute CNN reports another discovery of anthrax in a letter in Nevada. Apart from the first man in Florida who died last week, the others who have come into contact have so far been treated successfully. No proof that this is linked to the Sept. 11 terrorism, but it's starting to look more like it.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Steve, I can't help but think this anthrax 'threat' is being blown way out of proportion. As far as i can see, there have only been a couple of cases, and concrete confirmation that it is linked to the bombings has not been forthcoming yet. I believe that the Florida cases involved a disgruntled employee? Its causing mass hysteria, and this is the last thing America needs now..
Onto the religion thing. Americans know the answer to solving the 'terorist threats'. Its religion. A solution needs to be found. There have been wars involving religion for thousands of years now. Solve this problem, and the world will be at peace. How do u do it?
Good question. The similarities between the major religions are striking, as many in here have already pointed out. I think the answer lies in finding common ground. There needs to be more of an acceptance of other religions amongst the heads of the different religious groups. They need to proclaim unity, and more importantly, they ALL need to come together and once and for all, condemn death and violence in no uncertain terms. Every follower has a leader, change the way that the leaders portray themselves and who knows, you may have a solution...Im not saying a Utopia is possible, but perhaps something else is, something the world has never really seen....Peace
MFC

 

[Willow]

Steve: Yes I think it goes without saying that none of this is simple.
The fact that the Americans are now thinking along the lines of dealing with the core problem shows some clear thinking in happening in some circles.
I've always maintained that the WTC attack didn't just happen - something like this was bound to happen. However, I don't think any of us could imagine that it would be so dramatic.
The core problem has and always will be the differences which exist in the Middle East. That is, the US military occupation as itprotects it's business interests and the armed terrorist response as it goes global in it's activities.
If theworld can find someway ofstopping the Palenstinians and Israelis from attacking each other (a ban on the deployment of Israeli war planes and missiles would be a good start) then we may have something. Afterall, that's what they've been trying to do for decades. Unfortunately, both sides claim a holy connection with the land and that seems to be 90% of the problem. How do you deal with religious zeal? There are fanatics on both sides who are willing to die for their version of god.
The problem of course is compounded by the fact that the USA also occupy other parts of the Middle East including Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Bin Laden's main gripe is the US occupation of Saudi Arabia.
And then there's the trade sanctions on Iraq.

Now I know that if the USA pulled out of the Middle East that things wouldn't suddenly improve. If they did take the simple option of leaving, then Israel would become sitting ducks (just like the Palrnstinians are now) and there's a chance of the whole region falling into an ongoing conflict as the various factions try and sort out their differences.
But I do think the USA should pull out and the UN should move in.
To my way of thinking, the UN should be given more teeth. They're hopeless at the moment. The UN are kept irrelevant by the USA.
IMO, America often start out with good intentions but are soon side tracked by business interests. They suffer from a conflict of interests ona grand scale.
If the UN were able to conduct themselves as the true 'world's peace keepers', then disasters like the WTC attack may never have happened.

 

[Willow]

I have to say that I haven't been following the Anthrax thing very closely. This is mainly because I still don't see the relevance. I'm surprised the President of the USA feels it neccessary to mention it.
Every now and then some nut case goes on rampage of sorts in the USA. The Una Bomber being the infamous in recent history.
If they have proof that it's connected to the terrorists then OK. But until that time, people should just treat it as being the actions of the lunatic fringe.

 

[CanadianSteve]

I hope the anthrax cases are not another wave of terrorism. It's understandable the Yanks are concerned about it in the wake of Sept. 11. Since shortly after that day, the news networks have been talking about biological terrorism as the next possible threat, including anthrax. The cases have occurred at a newspaper office in Florida, NBC-TV News and the NY Times in New York, and now a Microsoft office in Nevada. It could be some sick American nut like the unabomber or Timothy McVeigh, but nothing has been confirmed or ruled out yet. I don't think it's beyond the bin Laden-type terrorists to do it. If anything you'd think they would do something on a bigger scale if they could. There has been evidence that some of the Sept. 11 hijackers were also trying to get access to crop-duster planes, which would likely be used for spreading some kind of poison gas.

 

[Hass]

I stopped contributing to this thread at about the 400 post mark- computer problems were to blame for that. However, I'd just like to reiterate how it is a credit to this site that we have chalked up 550 posts on this issue that have been debated and discussed in a very mature matter.

I can't remember anything getting 550 posts on WORL- not even Legend's Worst Players thread.

So hats off to everyone.....and let's keep making this community a great place to be part of.

Cheers.

 

[imported_Reservoir Dog]

I've only just heard about this Anthrax 'thing.'

Excuse my ignorance gents - but what exactly is Anthrax?

 

[imported_Jackal]

You should be studying for upcoming exams RD :0)

Here you go bud --

-----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====-----=====

1. What is anthrax? Anthrax is an acute infectious disease caused by the spore-forming bacterium Bacillus anthracis. It most commonly occurs in mammal such cattle, sheep, goats, camels and antelopes, but can also occur in humans when they are exposed to infected animals or tissue from infected animals. 2. How common is anthrax and who can get it? Anthrax is most common in agricultural regions where it occurs in animals. Humans infected with anthrax usually have been exposed to infected animals or their products through their occupations. Workers who are exposed to dead animals and animal products from other countries where anthrax is more common may become infected with Bacillus anthracis. 3. How is anthrax transmitted? Anthrax infection can occur in three forms: cutaneous (skin), inhalation, and gastrointestinal. Spores can live in the soil for years, and humans can become infected with anthrax by handling products from infected animals or by inhaling anthrax spores from contaminated animal products. Eating undercooked meat from infected animals also can spread the disease. It is rare to find infected animals in the United States. 4. What are the symptoms of anthrax? They vary depending on how the disease was contracted, but symptoms usually occur within seven days. - Cutaneous: About 95 percent of anthrax infections occur when the bacterium enters a cut or abrasion on the skin, such as when handling contaminated wool, hides, leather or hair products of infected animals. It begins as a raised itchy bump that resembles an insect bite, but soon turns into a painless ulcer, usually one to three centimeters in diameter, usually with a black center in the middle. Lymph glands in the adjacent area may swell. About 20 percent of untreated cases result in death. The employee at NBC who contracted anthrax has cutaneous anthrax. - Inhalation: Initial symptoms may resemble a common cold, but lead to severe breathing problems and shock after several days. Inhalation anthrax is usually fatal. An employee of a Florida tabloid publishing company contracted inhalation anthrax and died. - Intestinal: This form of anthrax may follow the consumption of contaminated meat and is characterized by an acute inflammation of the intestinal tract. Initial signs include nausea, loss of appetite, vomiting and fever, followed by abdominal pain, vomiting blood and severe diarrhea. Between 25 percent and 60 percent of cases are fatal. 5. Where is anthrax usually found? Anthrax is global. It is more common in developing countries or countries without veterinary public health programs. Certain regions of the world (South and Central America, Southern and Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, the Caribbean, and the Middle East) report more anthrax in animals than elsewhere. 6. Can anthrax be spread from person to person? Direct, person-to-person spread of anthrax is extremely unlikely. It is not contagious. 7. Is there a treatment for anthrax? Doctors can prescribe effective antibiotics. To be effective, treatment should be initiated early. If left untreated, the disease can be fatal. 8. Is there a way to prevent infection? In countries where anthrax is common and vaccination levels of animal herds are low, humans should avoid contact with livestock and animal products and not eat meat that has not been properly prepared. Also, an anthrax vaccine has been licensed for use in humans. It is reported to be 93 percent effective. 9. What is the anthrax vaccine? It is manufactured and distributed by BioPort Corp. of Lansing, Michigan. It is a cell-free filtrate vaccine, which means it contains no dead or live bacteria in the preparation. Anthrax vaccines intended for animals should not be used in humans. 10. Who should get vaccinated against anthrax? The CDCP's advisory committee on immunization practices recommends vaccination for the following: - People who work directly with the organism in the laboratory - People who work with imported animal hides or furs in areas where standards are insufficient to prevent exposure to anthrax spores. - People who handle potentially infected animal products in high-incidence areas. (Incidence is low in the United States, but veterinarians who travel to work in other countries where incidence is higher should consider getting vaccinated.) - Military personnel deployed to areas with high risk for exposure to the organism (as when it is used as a biological warfare weapon). Pregnant women should be vaccinated only if absolutely necessary. [url]www.cnn.com[/url]

 

[imported_Raging Bulldog]

It aint pretty ... anthrax -that is.

R-Bulldog

 

[imported____]

Canadian Steve (sorry, I know this was a while ago). I have refrained from advocating policies because I believe that each has it's own merits and drawbacks. I may have appeared to be overly critical of the US, I will concede their policies have merit but I guess I focussed more on the drawbacks.

In light of the outbreaks of anthrax I cannot help but cast my mind back to my final year at school when we studied Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World". In later years Huxley was most critical of himself for not forseeing the development of nuclear weapons (as the war in the book was an anthrax one) and conceded that the Savage didn't have a realistic amount of options in the end...but in my opinion the criticism was just a display of the author going soft after a few years. Brave New World is almost an unthinkable situation about a state run society but it is amazing how with time so many factors of the brave new world have arisen in our own society....one quote that stands out from memory is "one believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them" and that can be usedin context of today's society, the Western world has a certain set of values and educates children accordingly...it's a case of if you hear anything enough times you start to believe it...and is quite possibly the very essence behind terrorism...having people think a certain way from a very young age. I guess there'd be one thing to look forward to.............soma

 

[legend]

Hass, I thought you stopped posting around the time Parra lost the big one.

Also, my worst player thread stands at 594 so Willow has nothing to brag about yet and as a manager this post may well reach 593 and be unceremoniously sent to the scrapheap. But, as Willow is a manager as well he could demote me just to take the title and as he is a Saints fan, you know underhanded things are their go.

Just thought i'd add a little mirth to a very serious but outstanding thread.

Beware Willow.

 

[CanadianSteve]

______: I have had the phrase "anthrax bombs" in my head lately, now I remember it was from Brave New World. In reality, I'm not sure whether it would work very well as a weapon of mass destruction, as opposed to the scary but limited uses in the cases in the US so far. Hopefully terrorists don't have access to large amounts of it.
On the subject of conditioning, I still like to think we have the ability to think independently. I don't think the totalitarianism of Brave New World or 1984 could take place, but I suppose some of the things from those books have come true but in more subtle ways.
Today, unfortunately the news on CNN is that a US missile has accidentally hit a civilian section of Kabul. I know that will upset some here, On CNN this morning a US general explained at length how this accident could have happened for different reasons. He stressed that they are trying hard not to hit civilians. I don't know if the US weapons are as accurate as they are made out to be, but I think they are sincere in not wanting to hit civilians. Partly because the Americans are more humane than those they are fighting, and of course because it's in their interests not to stir up sympathy for the Taliban among other Moslems

 

[imported____]

I don't know that they would useanthrax bombs as a weapon of mass destruction (I don't know that that was what Huxley intended to say either, after all there were survivors). I heard somewhere (I apologise for the lack of substantial evidence but I just can not remember where) that a certain terrorist organisation was quoted as saying that jihad wont be fought as war is fought out traditionally (ie all guns blazing) but rather a series of seemingly insignificant attacks to cause panic within the population so that what would follow would be an easy swoop. These outbreaks of anthrax seem to be going along those lines, because from what I understand only one person has actually died....but undoubtedly a wave of panic has swept America and a lot of the world.

Civilians were always going to be hit in the airstrikes against Afghanistan, that is why so many were so adamantly against it, because it was always going to happen. It isn't just the loss of innocent lives but another reason to hate the US, another reason to feed off fear and whip up hysteria to the glorious cause....the jihad. Another reason to perpetuate the vicious cycle of violence that has plagued mankind for so long.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Ah, Brave New World....Quite an interesting book, i guess some of it does have relevance to modern day society. From my interpretation, the savage became a victim of circumstance. 'Realistic amount of options'? Did Huxley actually say that _____?
I wouldn't consider it is as an 'unthinkable situation'. Society will only get more regulated after these attacks last month. Im not suggesting that it will end up with kids being conditioned from an early age, but an era of state-run 'controlled' societies may not be as far away as we may all think.
It was a great book to read. The symbolism associated with central control was amazing and well presented by Huxley. Is this the solution to the worlds problems? Some would say yes....Although individualism should always have a place in society.
MFC.

 

[imported____]

MFC, from all the texts we had studied that year Brave New World was probably the least favorite in my eyes. That isn't a criticism on the book itself because essentially it's aim was so that we couldn't connect with any of the characters....or so my English teacher said.The savage was probably most similar to us and yetyou couldn't relate to him either because he wastoo masochistic.

At the front of the book before the actual story was a section by Huxley written a number of years later...about realisticamount of options....that isn't a direct quote and I think you are reading it with an emphasis on realistic rather than amount. Huxley later thought there should be a third option aside from the brave new world and the savage reserve. Also I said unthinkable situation rather than impossible situation because it is possible....just unthinkable in this world....or at least the world up until now.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Ah, i getcha then _____. Some would say that a system of socialism is a mix between the Brave New World and the Savage reserve. To be honest, i think that society in its present state (or at least up until 9/11) was a good mix between the 2. I mean, the world hasn't fully embraced all technology that it COULD (ie:Euthanasia and cloning) but we don't exactly live like savages either.
You couldn't relate to the character? I dunno, maybe i didn't read into the depth of his character as much as you did, but i found it quite easy to do so. I mean, he was different, and he was an outcast. I think that is the point that Huxley was making. Uniformity was the norm, individuality was the exception. Huxley was perhaps like many writers of his time, he expressed his desire to be different through literature. I think its a great point. Individuals are still not widely respected/understood within society. After all, its the individuals who dare to be different that have changed society in the past and will continue to do so into the future....
I think that Huxley was making a statement against the growing 'regulatory' nature of society. I think the mentioning of the Model T ford highlighted his protests. It symbolised everything he was against: uniformity, regulation and repetition.
Anyways, i feel like im back at school writing english essays again, so i better stop!
But yeah, i actually found Brave New World quite good, relative to the other crap that our teacher made us read. From yr12, i can remember reading Frankenstein (ugh), Merchant of Venice (uh huh) and Othello...
MFC.