Players you rated...

[Bazal]

just because he played in the #6 doesn't mean he is a ball player - and that's my whole point.

I've seen him play this year in each game and I really like what I see in Mateo but he is a runner and an offloader with a lot of skill and agility - exactly what clubs have been after for the last half dozen years. And good luck to him but he is not a ball player like Smith, Dymock, Kosef, Russell, Graham etc - we've phased those players out in favour of the Mateo prototype.

And it is a real shame because surely there's room in the game for both.

Also i think you are being very harsh on Finch - sure he's not in great form but he is a ball player - no matter how ordinary he goes at times. Personally I think he's a good player but is hardly being used in the Parramatta structure this season at 5/8. But that's another topic.

He hasn't used it this year, but Feleti has a great kicking game (we've seen glimpses this year) and a sublime passing game...You mention Jimmy Dymock, in fact Dymock is the player I most relate him to. I think he is playing to his position; as a back rower he gets more value from playing in the Widders mould and running out wide with offloads. He does, however, have the skill to play five-eighth if required. I;d love to see him bring it out in first grade...

EDIT-Re Finchy...he is certainly a good ball player, maybe no consistent but he has talent...I just think Feleti has better ball skills

 

[sooperdooper]

mateo is a ball player...

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

He hasn't used it this year, but Feleti has a great kicking game (we've seen glimpses this year) and a sublime passing game...You mention Jimmy Dymock, in fact Dymock is the player I most relate him to. I think he is playing to his position; as a back rower he gets more value from playing in the Widders mould and running out wide with offloads. He does, however, have the skill to play five-eighth if required. I;d love to see him bring it out in first grade...

EDIT-Re Finchy...he is certainly a good ball player, maybe no consistent but he has talent...I just think Feleti has better ball skills

SBW and Wally Lewis rolled in to one, yet not deemed good enough to play regular first grade until he was 23. Surely one of the all time great tragedies.

 

[Bazal]

SBW and Wally Lewis rolled in to one, yet not deemed good enough to play regular first grade until he was 23. Surely one of the all time great tragedies.

Lol...Hardly...hasn't got the defence of SBW by any means,although he is certainly a more talented ball player... and we all know Wally is probably the best or second best five-eighth ever so that's a f**king stupid comment...as I said I liken him to Jim Dymock in a big way. Great ball skills, good short kicking game and an acceptable long kicking game....

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

It's palpably obvious from his FG career thus far that he has all the SBW type skills- tall and rangy, fast, strong, can break tackles and offload.

i.e. as prodigiousman is saying, the archetypal modern day backrower.

If he also has the ball playing skills of a half, then he's deadset the best player in the world.

Or not.

 

[Prodigiousman]

at the risk of sounding like a broken record - do you understand what I mean by the difference between a ball player and a second phase player?

Ball players are those who can go to the line and put a team-mate through a gap, throw a face ball, turn a guy inside into a gap etc and get hit for their trouble.

Second phase players take the ball to the line and into the defence with the intent to offload at the point of contact or just after or to back into the defensive line and look for the support player on either side. They have more freakish ability with the ball in their hands to get it away but they don't have the time on their hands before the line that ball players do.

I think there is a big difference here - and the game has seen clubs go after the latter in the last half dozen years to the detriment of the ball player. Although it is getting old hearing Matt Johns talk about Jason Smith and how he slows the play down and has more time than others - that is exactly what a ball player is. You'd hope your halfback has those abilities plus a great kicking game but in your five-eighth or lock (depending how your team is structured) surely you'd love to have another player with those ball playing abilities as you can get the second phase from your backrowers and props.

If you disagree - no dramas but as a supporter who grew up on great ball playing lock forwards and saw how great an influence they had on the defensive game of the late 1980s and early 1990s - I really wish I we will see another true ball playing lock in the game sooner rather than later.

 

[Bazal]

It's palpably obvious from his FG career thus far that he has all the SBW type skills- tall and rangy, fast, strong, can break tackles and offload.

i.e. as prodigiousman is saying, the archetypal modern day backrower.

If he also has the ball playing skills of a half, then he's deadset the best player in the world.

Or not.

Right...so he doesn't have the ball playing skills of a half, even though he's naturally a five-eighth...makes perfect sense to me. How many times has SBW chipped and chased for a try or repeat set?

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Right...so he doesn't have the ball playing skills of a half, even though he's naturally a five-eighth...makes perfect sense to me. How many times has SBW chipped and chased for a try or repeat set?

I'm not sure, I do recall him trying it though

Actually, there is another player in the same mould- Sione Faumuina. Sione played plenty of stand-off as well as backrow and centre. He played the SBW role out wide with his strength and offloading, but he also liked to play a stand-off type role and put people into gaps with cut-out passes etc.

As for chip and regather, I remember him setting up an amazing try against Parra in 2003 with a chip and chase.

Having said that, Faumuina wasn't really good enough to be anything more than barely competent at 6 in first grade.....if Mateo is really any better than that, well....I'd like to see it.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

btw, what do you mean "naturally" a 5/8th?

I know Mateo has played all backrow in first grade, and afaik he played substantially in the backrow in reggies as well (albeit I'm sure he played some 6 as well)?

He's what, 190cm 105kg or something like that?

He may have been a natural 6, but players change as they come through the grades. Mateo may once have been a natural 6, but I will eat my proverbial hat if he becomes anything other than a "natural" backrower at first grade level.

 

[Inferno]

I thought Beau Scott was going to be a superstar when he burst onto the scene a couple of years ago. Had a few deficiencies with handling and was slightly error prone which I thought would improve in time.

Fast forward a few years and has not changed even slightly since his debut. That said it was hard for anyone in our backline to shine under Stuart Raper.

Still hope for him yet if he plays under the right coach.

 

[Nevcost]

I think the saints trying to turn him into a backrower like they did with Ben Creagh

 

[Bazal]

btw, what do you mean "naturally" a 5/8th?

I know Mateo has played all backrow in first grade, and afaik he played substantially in the backrow in reggies as well (albeit I'm sure he played some 6 as well)?

He's what, 190cm 105kg or something like that?

He may have been a natural 6, but players change as they come through the grades. Mateo may once have been a natural 6, but I will eat my proverbial hat if he becomes anything other than a "natural" backrower at first grade level.

By natural I mean he played there most of his developmental years, and I believe played schoolboys there too (but I may be wrong on that). He was our flegg five-eighth alongside Tim Smith, and our reggies five-eighth with him too until he got too big to play there (bear in mind he was already a big number 6). IIRC he was at 6 until he was loaned to London, they played him mostly at lock and he set up a lot of tries (an ESL fan could shed more light on this, I rarely watch it TBH), and bulked up, so basically he's a backrower because of his size...

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Yep, and with the size, he is going to be a backrower.

Without the size, he would be a 6...and he wouldn't be the player he is now.

 

[Bazal]

You're probably right tbh...he'd be a different player and probably not as devastating if he was smaller...

 

[Raider_69]

Mateo and Bird have both played junior grades in the halves, both have the ability to ball play, ive seem them both do it at PL level... and by that i mean they can run to the line and put a player through a hole, but they dont play that role at their respective clubs right now. I think the position of lock is going to return to those days off the back of players like Mateo, Bird, Anasta and Campese, and the success these blokes will have as a ball playing lock.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

yeah but imo Bird is a fine player, but an ordinary (at best) 6. Mateo would probably be similar. Having that little bit of ball playing ability to go with running and offloading ability is a great bonus for a backrower, but it takes more to be a really good 6.

 

[Raider_69]

i agree, tbh none of them are 5/8th... not even campese who is playing there now for the raiders... they are all backrowers with ball skills, Bird was a rubbish #6, Campese is playing well but he's not the best #6 either, Mateo i imagine without seeing a whole lot of him at pivot, would be very much the same. And we all know Anasta is a lock forward doing his best at five eigth... All can ball play but not on a level you want from a regular 5/8th, they've got the size and strength to go with with balls skills, imo, makes them the perfect mould for as close as we'll get to the classic ball playing lock forward of yester year

 

[roopy]

the only reason Ryder got any raps early was because Rabs and Fatty loved to call out 'night ryder!' during the call... he scored some handy tries that were of a real finishers quality but where you got the idea people thought he would be a future star is anyone's guess let alone a rep player.

do you know what this thread is about?
idiot

 

[TooheysNew]

:lol:

 

[RABK]

do you know what this thread is about?
idiot

:LOL: