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[KeepingTheFaith]

Oniell is poor defensively when played out of position ( center ) he is an excellent defensive player in his natural position ( Wing ).

The Warriors concede the Majority of their points on the edge.

If you were coach....where would you look to add a defensive player to your roster first?

Prop ? where there is no weakness in conceding try's though the middle ?

To say there's no weakness in our middle just because we concede more tries on the edge is ignoring the underlining problem which is how badly our edge defense gets sucked inward due to how ineffective our middle is. This creates far too much space out wide.

Absolutely I'd be shoring up our middle defense before anywhere else, regardless of where the tries are being scored because that's where it all starts. Don't let the opposition get front foot ball then they don't get as much opportunity to go wide and are less effective when they do.

If I was going to pick our biggest issues in defense, wingers would be down on the list.Their positions are largely reactive to the good or bad work done by those on the inside.

Always hopeful we'll pick up a couple of defensively sound middle forwards before the new season starts. If not I don't see much changing in our results for next season regardless of how well our wingers (old or new) defend.

 

[sup42]

To say there's no weakness in our middle just because we concede more tries on the edge is ignoring the underlining problem which is how badly our edge defense gets sucked inward due to how ineffective our middle is. This creates far too much space out wide.

Absolutely I'd be shoring up our middle defense before anywhere else, regardless of where the tries are being scored because that's where it all starts. Don't let the opposition get front foot ball then they don't get as much opportunity to go wide and are less effective when they do.

If I was going to pick our biggest issues in defense, wingers would be down on the list.Their positions are largely reactive to the good or bad work done by those on the inside.

Always hopeful we'll pick up a couple of defensively sound middle forwards before the new season starts. If not I don't see much changing in our results for next season regardless of how well our wingers (old or new) defend.

You are talking finer points of defence.

Players being drawn into the middle is tactically advanced defensive analysis.

Yes is is relevant.

Priority however is fundamentals.

Fundamentals starts with points in your defensive line that aren't consistently making one on one tackles....

That would be our edges.

The Middle don't consistently miss first up like the edges, I can't be bothered finding the stats table for where trys are scored against the Warriors....seen it many times though...and for this season the majority are on the right...followed by the left edges...the middle concedes far less.

Until the edge defence makes consistently good defensive decisions....the theory about players being drawn to the middle is just that....a theory un able to be measured in isolation for how much weighting it should be given. Chicken and egg debate.

The case of the Dragons success over the Warriors is interesting.

They excel on their edges by recruiting classy outside backs, especially their edge players.

They are weak relative to other clubs in the Middle.

The Warriors struggle against their weaker pack because they expose the Warriors fundamental weakness as being their outside backs without challenging the Warriors up front.

The Dragons make massive meters against the Warriors playing wide.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Mateo/Ikahihifo are barely over 90% tackle completion? Bukuya/Matagi are below that.

First up tackles are absolutely an issue in the middle of the field.

You can call it a theory, but if the middle defense isn't getting sucked inward then they're all just horribly positioned. Don't need theory to see the amount of ground our outside backs are being asked to cover compared to the better defensive teams.

Either structure, decision making, or positioning is causing us to offer up more space than other teams.

 

[TheDMC]

Mateo/Ikahihifo are barely over 90% tackle completion? Bukuya/Matagi are below that.

First up tackles are absolutely an issue in the middle of the field.

You can call it a theory, but if the middle defense isn't getting sucked inward then they're all just horribly positioned. Don't need theory to see the amount of ground our outside backs are being asked to cover compared to the better defensive teams.

Either structure, decision making, or positioning is causing us to offer up more space than other teams.

Regardless of our middle defense, our backline defense is horrible, and would only be marginally better with a more dominating forward pack. Simply put the backs are not up to scratch at keeping their defensive line intact, evenly spread and working with each other - wings/centers are way too easily manipulated to be out of position. Its completely a lack of nous and poor decision making (partly experience for some I guess - Hurrell etc) and quite apparent most games. End of the day, outside backs have to be able to consistently get in position to consistently make effective 1 on 1 tackles. If you are tackling thin air between the attacking center and winger you have messed up!

 

[Rich102]

Edge defence statistics for the Warriors are going to be skewed as long as Manu is playing.
Why?
Because he is a poor one-on-one defender and he is so often out of position after taking hit-ups.
Again why?
Because our props are so slow getting back in defence and reluctant to take hit-up's.

So:
If we are going to continue to use Manu on the wing we need better props.

Plus. If we want to see anything from Johnson we need better go-forward from the forwards.
Johnson is showing no inclination to take on the line in attack so unless the forwards fire Johnson is very average.

 

[Fast Eddie]

Edge defence statistics for the Warriors are going to be skewed as long as Manu is playing.
Why?
Because he is a poor one-on-one defender and he is so often out of position after taking hit-ups.
Again why?
Because our props are so slow getting back in defence and reluctant to take hit-up's.

So:
If we are going to continue to use Manu on the wing we need better props.

Plus. If we want to see anything from Johnson we need better go-forward from the forwards.
Johnson is showing no inclination to take on the line in attack so unless the forwards fire Johnson is very average.

Out of position after taking hit ups? He's out of position 5-6 tackles after he takes a hit up? I don't think so.

 

[ozbash]

Edge defence statistics for the Warriors are going to be skewed as long as Manu is playing.
Why?
Because he is a poor one-on-one defender and he is so often out of position after taking hit-ups.
Again why?
Because our props are so slow getting back in defence and reluctant to take hit-up's.

So:
If we are going to continue to use Manu on the wing we need better props.

Plus. If we want to see anything from Johnson we need better go-forward from the forwards.
Johnson is showing no inclination to take on the line in attack so unless the forwards fire Johnson is very average.

Why would SJ want to get smashed every time he touched the ball ?

Agree with you on Manu, there is way too much expected of him.. he covers about 4 positions...prop included.
It used to be "kick it to manu" now it's "give it to manu".... schoolboy stuff.

 

[Izz]

Johnson is showing no inclination to take on the line in attack so unless the forwards fire Johnson is very average.

to be fair to Johnson, he took the line on a lot more this year than i've seen in the past.

We definitely need a fire lit under our forward pack. Hopefully Hoffman adds some of that next year--he's always in a position for the Storm to take hitup 2 or 3.

And, y'know what, if Matulino begins next season like he played this one he needs to spend time at NSW cup.

 

[JJ]

Why would SJ want to get smashed every time he touched the ball ?

Agree with you on Manu, there is way too much expected of him.. he covers about 4 positions...prop included.
It used to be "kick it to manu" now it's "give it to manu".... schoolboy stuff.

Johnson has to take the line on, regardless of whether pack is dominating or not... halfbacks have to do that - aside from all their injuries and dramas, a big reason why Manly is struggling seems to be Cherry-Evans isn't taking the line on like he was - whether that's due to injury, political dramas, or the pack struggling is not clear - but it started before the pack got smashed by Souths

On the props and Manu - prop is priority #1 for me. But I am not sure they can be criticised for not taking early hit ups (and similarly Manu [and one would assume Laumape et al]) be criticised for being out of position because they're taking them... this is clearly the game plan, not something that has come about because the props are ineffective or lazy

 

[ozbash]

Absolutely.. Stace was a genius at taking the line on. He could time it.

Never saw him getting smashed that often, it was usually as a result of the ground work done by the hooker/dummy half/forwards...

 

[JJ]

Yep, but there are only 3-4 teams with packs that can dominate that way at the moment (Souths, Roosters, Cowboys, and Dogs) so halves have to attack the line when the pack is achieving parity, or even being beaten... our pack, while limited, generally held it's own this year (they were dominated a few times), I think Jones would still have having a crack even with this pack

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Johnson still has a few too many touch instincts compared to Stacey who had league smarts.

Those instincts look for gaps that are big enough to get through without being touched, but the gaps can be smaller in league, especially with his acceleration.

I think he's starting to figure that out though.

When Lolohea eventually gets his shot it will be interesting to see how he takes on the line in comparison. It was only U20's, but one of the tries he scored on the weekend was close to the line and he just decided to charge for the gap between two defenders and score.

Andrew Johns was the master at that (like most things), little dummy and just go hard between two defenders close to the line.

 

[tangalife]

Those instincts look for gaps that are big enough to get through without being touched, but the gaps can be smaller in league, especially with his acceleration.

I think he's starting to figure that out though.

Agree. This is why you quite often speeding through gaps where he remains practically un touched, he's only challenging it when he knows he wont be touched, an instinct of his.

 

[reykaine]

From a supporter's point of view remembering when we had success, I think the Warrior's lack of success this year is not the backs, not the bigger forwards, but in my opinion the hooking position.
We have had plenty of hookers that were good at darting out of dummy half, (eg the Marsh's, Deaths, Mears and even more recently we have had twin hooking tactics that worked very effectively(Brown/Heremai/Berrigan). None of our hookers this year have provided that extra focus of attack that the opposition has to worry about. Havili might have developed into a good hooker during the year but McFadden wouldn't chance it. Why he was reluctant to play Havili, only he knows.
If the Warriors are to make any impact next year, a decent hooker that challenges the line must be blooded into the team from within the ranks (if there is one) or a buttload of money should be spent on acquiring one from Australia.

 

[TheDMC]

Johnson has to take the line on, regardless of whether pack is dominating or not... halfbacks have to do that - aside from all their injuries and dramas, a big reason why Manly is struggling seems to be Cherry-Evans isn't taking the line on like he was - whether that's due to injury, political dramas, or the pack struggling is not clear - but it started before the pack got smashed by Souths

We need a prop who can bend the line and get a quick play of the ball, immediately followed by a hooker who can capitalize by scooping and running (or other forward similar play) and then quickly out to Johnson who can weave his running/passing magic against a looser and retreating defensive line.

Don't need a monster pack for this. But we are missing that prop and we are missing that hooker.

 

[maddest_kiwi]

From a supporter's point of view remembering when we had success, I think the Warrior's lack of success this year is not the backs, not the bigger forwards, but in my opinion the hooking position.
We have had plenty of hookers that were good at darting out of dummy half, (eg the Marsh's, Deaths, Mears and even more recently we have had twin hooking tactics that worked very effectively(Brown/Heremai/Berrigan). None of our hookers this year have provided that extra focus of attack that the opposition has to worry about. Havili might have developed into a good hooker during the year but McFadden wouldn't chance it. Why he was reluctant to play Havili, only he knows.
If the Warriors are to make any impact next year, a decent hooker that challenges the line must be blooded into the team from within the ranks (if there is one) or a buttload of money should be spent on acquiring one from Australia.

This. Nathan Friend, whilst being a absolute battle horse, is relatively ineffective in attack. Nathan Friend supplemented by energetic stints from Havili could work...
Dreaming here, but Jake Friend is off contract at the end of 2015.

 

[JoeD]

At this stage id settle for a hooker with a decent pass

 

[Rich102]

Susan from Herne bay?

 

[Mixmasterreece]

Tiaan has signed for 2 years. Great pickup

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

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